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Catholic school can fire gay drama teacher for marrying, court rules

cigaretteman

HR King
May 29, 2001
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One of the most liberal appellate courts in the country has ruled that a Catholic high school could fire a teacher for marrying another man, a victory for conservative and religious advocacy groups that have pushed back against anti-discrimination law.

The unusual decision came from three judges on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, which in recent weeks has issued two major rulings in favor of transgender rights. Crossing ideological lines, a Biden and a Reagan appointee joined to warn that a Clinton appointee’s view of the case would put hundreds of thousands of people at risk of losing their jobs based on their sex, race or age.

The court ruled that Lonnie Billard, who taught English and drama before becoming a substitute teacher at a Catholic high school in Charlotte, counts as a “minister” who can be fired for not adhering to the Church’s religious beliefs on homosexuality.



“This is a massive victory,” said Luke Goodrich of the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, who argued the case. No other court, he said, had ruled that a substitute teacher who did not teach religious classes counted as a “minister.” “Under the logic of this ruling, almost every teacher at almost every religious school” could be dismissed for “violating core religious beliefs.”
Billard announced on Facebook in October 2014 that he was engaged to his partner of 14 years, about two weeks after same-sex marriage became legal in North Carolina. He was subsequently let go from his job. The American Civil Liberties Union backed his lawsuit alleging sex discrimination.


The Supreme Court in 2020 set out a broad “ministerial exception” to anti-discrimination laws, saying that under the First Amendment, religious organizations can decide who represents the faith. But the court also ruled recently that federal civil rights law protects gay and transgender workers from discrimination. Conservative religious groups have argued that after that ruling, the ministerial exception must be even broader to allow them to maintain their belief that homosexuality and gender transition are sinful.



Charlotte Catholic High School actually denied that Billard was a minister. Teachers of secular subjects at the school do not have to be Catholic and are generally discouraged from discussing religion with students, according to the court record.
But the judges concluded that Billard was still “a vital role as a messenger of [the school’s] faith.” Teachers at the school were scored in their annual evaluations on whether their lesson plans were “agreeable with Catholic thought.” Billard testified that he coordinated with religion teachers to make sure his teaching of plays like “Romeo and Juliet” were “in tune” with the doctrine. Classes began with a prayer, and Billard took his students to Mass.
All that, the court argued, made him a minister who could be let go for failing to, in the school’s view, properly represent Catholicism.



While the decision is a blow to gay rights and free speech groups that represented Billard, the court said it was avoiding a legal theory that could have led to more widespread discrimination. The school had argued that a religious institution has a right to fire any employee who they see as contradicting their beliefs, whether that person is a minister or not.
Last year, the Supreme Court ruled that a wedding business owner could refuse to do work for a same-sex couple under the First Amendment’s free speech protections. The school argued that the ruling also helped its case, and that a church school has a related right to choose not to “associate” with gay people. But the school’s primary argument was that Billard’s firing fell under a different exception written into federal civil rights law — that faith groups can choose to employ “individuals of a particular religion.” A district court in Texas has agreed with that interpretation.
A ruling in favor of the school on those grounds could legalize not just firing of gay employees but “race and national-origin discrimination” as well, the majority said, as long as the decision was justified on religious grounds. “We have understood that exemption to operate as a defense only to claims of religious discrimination — allowing religious institutions to favor co-religionists in hiring — and not to claims of race or sex discrimination,” they said.



The ruling was written by Judge Pamela Harris, a Biden appointee, and joined by Paul V. Niemeyer, a Reagan appointee. In dissent, Judge Robert B. King, a Clinton appointee, wrote that he agreed with the decision but said the court was “obliged” to rule that the exception to federal civil rights law barring employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex and national origin applies. He did not respond to the majority’s argument that his interpretation would allow for racial and ethnic discrimination.
Goodrich dismissed those arguments as strawmen. “You haven’t seen any of those hypotheticals manifest, and there’s multiple reasons for that,” he said, including that other federal laws explicitly bar racial and ethnic bias in employment. When the court held public arguments over this case last year, Harris suggested those are also under threat. The Trump administration tried to limit enforcement of one law Goodrich cited; the Supreme Court recently raised the bar for proving bias under another.
“That is very much an active issue,” Harris said. “I don’t think we should consider that sort of a stable area of the law.”



But Goodrich argued that religious justifications for firings are rare, while a broader ministerial exception gives religious groups far more power to fire employees without fear of a lawsuit. The Supreme Court has ruled it applies to claims of discrimination based on age or disability.

Under this ruling, he said, “the vast majority of claims are barred for pretty much every teacher in every religious school.”
 
If a church can't fire a teacher working in their school because the teacher refuses to live their life based on the very teachings and moral code they teach, then would we really have freedom of religion? Religion is a way of life and a set of values, not something that stops when you leave work.
 
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Religious schools are allowed to lay out moral expectations of their teachers because part of religion is moral teachings.

If a person does not want to abide by those moral expectations they should probably teach elsewhere.
 
Religious schools are allowed to lay out moral expectations of their teachers because part of religion is moral teachings.

If a person does not want to abide by those moral expectations they should probably teach elsewhere.

I would agree with this, until my taxes started going to them. Woot, woot Kimberly!

Now I want a say in how they run things.
 
I would agree with this, until my taxes started going to them. Woot, woot Kimberly!

Now I want a say in how they run things.

I would agree that would apply to their selection of students but not necessarily to teachers.

The thing for me is the idea of a voucher is that it's public money that would be spent on the student anyway it allows the student to use that as a choice. Because we can't have some students choices available to them that other students of equal merit might not receive then the school receiving voucher money has to take all students who meet any merit based requirements on a first come first serve basis.

Teachers on the other hand arn't part of the equation. They are role models and the school has the right to decide what kind of role models it wants at the school.
 
Wait. If this ruling is based on the status of teachers at religious schools being classified as ministers, then it would seem easy to challenge public monies being dispensed in the form of vouchers to religious schools.
Ah yes, yet another seeming paradox arising from the bigger 1A paradox whereby (i) the free exercise clause insists that the G keep its hands off 'how" a religion is practiced, yet (ii) the establishment clause require simple "neutrality" toward religion vis a vis program spending. As with most paradoxes, it makes things far from easy.
 
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So the school said he wasn't a minister and didn't want secular teachers discussing secular matters and the court decided that he was a minister anyway?

Seems an odd ruling.
 
I would agree that would apply to their selection of students but not necessarily to teachers.

The thing for me is the idea of a voucher is that it's public money that would be spent on the student anyway it allows the student to use that as a choice. Because we can't have some students choices available to them that other students of equal merit might not receive then the school receiving voucher money has to take all students who meet any merit based requirements on a first come first serve basis.

Teachers on the other hand arn't part of the equation. They are role models and the school has the right to decide what kind of role models it wants at the school.
The teachers are paid by the vouchers. Also if you think being gay is a question of morality you’re a fvcking douchebag.
 
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I would agree that would apply to their selection of students but not necessarily to teachers.

The thing for me is the idea of a voucher is that it's public money that would be spent on the student anyway it allows the student to use that as a choice. Because we can't have some students choices available to them that other students of equal merit might not receive then the school receiving voucher money has to take all students who meet any merit based requirements on a first come first serve basis.

Teachers on the other hand arn't part of the equation. They are role models and the school has the right to decide what kind of role models it wants at the school.

We'll agree to disagree.
 
I would agree with this, until my taxes started going to them. Woot, woot Kimberly!

Now I want a say in how they run things.
I find it interesting you’re upset your taxes are going to a school/teacher.
Mine are going to some illegal alien which who knows what he does with it.
That seems like something to be more upset about.
 
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I find it interesting you’re upset your taxes are going to a school/teacher.
Mine are going to some illegal alien which who knows what he does with it.
That seems like something to be more upset about.

I don't think you know what upset means. I just said now that it's the law, I want my pound of flesh when it comes to what gets done with my tax dollars in private schools. Or are you not for transparency and accountability? Lemme guess....
 
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I find it interesting you’re upset your taxes are going to a school/teacher.
Mine are going to some illegal alien which who knows what he does with it.
That seems like something to be more upset about.
Lol there he is! Hey, are you going to say a prayer for the drama teacher? Don’t want you ending up in purgatory now, do we?
 
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Ah yes, yet another seeming paradox arising from the bigger 1A paradox whereby (i) the free exercise clause insists that the G keep its hands off 'how" a religion is practiced, yet (ii) the establishment clause require simple "neutrality" toward religion vis a vis program spending. As with most paradoxes, it makes things far from easy.
Right now private/parochials are enjoying playing “both ends against the middle” as it is to their advantage…..there needs to be a reasonable “middle ground” reached here….by the Courts. I think the idea of my tax money being gifted to a private/parochial organization, with no “ties attached” is a bad idea…..plus, I really don’t believe any collected TAX MONEY has any business going to private of church schools, as a matter of separation of church and state.
IF tax money is found “legal” if gifted to these schools, these schools should be required to the same rules of entry and oversight of testing as the public schools…….plus oversight by the public as to how their schools are run day to day.
 
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There's a very selective Catholic girls school in Bethesda and the principal is married to a man and also a Eucharistic Minister in D.C.
Here in NoVa, our former priest fired our gay organist who got married. As I'm sure you know, the Potomac Ocean is a rather large gulf when it comes to Catholic cultures.

While I don't see the need to go around firing organists, at the same time, I volunteered to support RCIA at Holy Trinity because I was advised they had a need with lots of catecumins. As much as it pains me to say it, once our catecumin was confirmed, never again.
 
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So if a male teacher at that school has or had a vasectomy, he could be fired as well? For that matter, any teacher that practices safe sex could be let go?
Yes. If you tell students you bang your wife with a rubber on, I’m pretty sure you’re getting fired.
 
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Right now private/parochials are enjoying playing “both ends against the middle” as it is to their advantage…..there needs to be a reasonable “middle ground” reached here….by the Courts. I think the idea of my tax money being gifted to a private/parochial organization, with no “ties attached” is a bad idea…..plus, I really don’t believe any collected TAX MONEY has any business going to private of church schools, as a matter of separation of church and state.
IF tax money is found “legal” if gifted to these schools, these schools should be required to the same rules of entry and oversight of testing as the public schools…….plus oversight by the public as to how their schools are run day to day.
Do you have a problem with tax dollars going to Planned Parenthood? If not, then how do you square your private school, private medical company hypocrisy?
 
And what about jerking off?! Phuck, some fellas gonna be screwed at the Dowlings and Reginas of the world!
Do you have to try being a douche or does it come natural?
This isn’t much different than companies having to hire a minority or female for certain positions.
Why is a gay guy even attempting to teach at a Catholic Church in the first place.
 
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And people wonder why organized religion & church attendance is declining. This seems like a good way to have the kids question things, especially if the teacher in question was popular & did a good job.
 
If a church can't fire a teacher working in their school because the teacher refuses to live their life based on the very teachings and moral code they teach, then would we really have freedom of religion? Religion is a way of life and a set of values, not something that stops when you leave work.
As long as they don't receive one damn dime in State funds, I can live with that.
 
And people wonder why organized religion & church attendance is declining. This seems like a good way to have the kids question things, especially if the teacher in question was popular & did a good job.
Agreed, based off their beliefs I don't think the school is wrong for letting him go but god damn it is such an outdated way of thinking
 
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Do you have to try being a douche or does it come natural?
This isn’t much different than companies having to hire a minority or female for certain positions.
Why is a gay guy even attempting to teach at a Catholic Church in the first place.

It’s completely natural. Thank you.
 
I don't think you know what upset means. I just said now that it's the law, I want my pound of flesh when it comes to what gets done with my tax dollars in private schools. Or are you not for transparency and accountability? Lemme guess....
You still believe vouchers are your public dollars to use as leverage for your political ideology. You still haven't realized vouchers are a clear breakaway from your mentality outright? They're not public funds anymore. You have no say in how it's spent. The teachers union has no say in how it's spent. To be blunt, the legislation was literally written to tell people like you and randy weingarten to go fvck themselves outright.

Good for the catholic school standing by their actual religious morals. Huey can join Tom Parris at his failing public school that will continue to bleed students because of their hiring practices.
 
You still believe vouchers are your public dollars to use as leverage for your political ideology. You still haven't realized vouchers are a clear breakaway from your mentality outright? They're not public funds anymore. You have no say in how it's spent. The teachers union has no say in how it's spent. To be blunt, the legislation was literally written to tell people like you and randy weingarten to go fvck themselves outright.

Good for the catholic school standing by their actual religious morals. Huey can join Tom Parris at his failing public school that will continue to bleed students because of their hiring practices.
What specific morals?
 
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