CMac

[iahawks10]

We do understand the game. Playing devils advocate, do we win this game game with Conor getting His usual stat line of 5 pts, 3 rebounds and 4-5 assists vs being forced to play Murray more and getting his 14-9? Plus the 7 rebounds from Nunge. Rutgers is a physical team. That’s 16 rebounds from the 4 position that replaced Conor. Might still have won but Guessing we would have been slaughtered on the boards going small. Who knows, maybe we would have gone big with Conor healthy. It’s a win.

Does Iowa score 7 less points than they’re averaging in B1G play going into today and do they commit 6 more turnovers than they’re averaging in B1G play going into today if Connor doesn’t get hurt?

Or 17 less points than average and 7 more turnovers than average for the year?

 

[jonesy5960]

Does Iowa score 7 less points then they’re averaging in B1G play going into today and do they commit 6 more turnovers than they’re averaging in B1G play going into today if Connor doesn’t get hurt?

Or 17 less points than average and 7 more turnovers than average for the year?

Who won again?

 

[iahawks10]

Who won again?

Clearly not Iowa’s most efficient game. That’s your big thing right?

 

[littlez]

So more Conor vs less Murray is what your saying? Yes, we certainly struggled to get the ball to Garza. He still had 25. And we had another guy playing the 4 who got 14-9. Rutgers is a very physical and very good defensive team. If Conor plays 32 minutes do we get 90? Guessing no.

 

[littlez]

Today was like a tournament game. Nothing came easy. I preferred more of today’s lineup. Doesn’t really matter because when Conor is healthy he plays. Is what it is.

 

[DougFHawkeye]

Connor and Keegan both deserve their minutes.

 

[ZumaHawk]

I think we can all agree to disagree about players pros n cons..........Connor is a very valuable player as well as Keegan's. This bantering back n forth with what could have should have would have is nonsense. They both have shined so far and it's great fun to cheer for both.

 

[jonesy5960]

Clearly not Iowa’s most efficient game. That’s your big thing right?

Nope. My big thing is winning. First road win over a top 20 team in 3 years. I don't have an issue with CMac. I just don't think him getting 25-30 minutes per game is in Iowa's best interest right now. He's a solid assist guy but I think teams have learned to play off CMac to the detriment of Garza and that's been especially apparent over the last several games. I think that Keegan is a much better defender, scorer, and rebounder and the team would be better served by him taking more of CMac's minutes. Is that really so crazy?

 

[iahawks10]

So more Conor vs less Murray is what your saying? Yes, we certainly struggled to get the ball to Garza. He still had 25. And we had another guy playing the 4 who got 14-9. Rutgers is a very physical and very good defensive team. If Conor plays 32 minutes do we get 90? Guessing no.

Not sure that it’s an either/or between Connor and Keegan.

Maybe more Keegan and less Nunge?

 

[DougFHawkeye]

I think we can all agree to disagree about players pros n cons..........Connor is a very valuable player as well as Keegan's. This bantering back n forth with what could have should have would have is nonsense. They both have shined so far and it's great fun to cheer for both.

Well for some of us anyways.

 

[24 so far]

Have to say at the end of the game, I felt better when he brought the ball in. The defense was really tough and he kept his head. Smart move bringing him in for that play.

I saw him in the bench area, and when we trying to inbounds late and called timeout, I turned to The Female and said "that's one thing that Connor is pretty good at", and next thing ya know there he is! Hell of a win when it seemed like we were playing "not very good Basketball".

 

[iahawks10]

Nope. My big thing is winning. First road win over a top 20 team in 3 years. I don't have an issue with CMac. I just don't think him getting 25-30 minutes per game is in Iowa's best interest right now. He's a solid assist guy but I think teams have learned to play off CMac to the detriment of Garza and that's been especially apparent over the last several games. I think that Keegan is a much better defender, scorer, and rebounder and the team would be better served by him taking more of CMac's minutes. Is that really so crazy?

Actually it’s their first top 20 road win since beating MSU in 2015-16. Iowa also won at Purdue, who was ranked in the top 20, a few games before on Jan 2, 2016.

Is it crazy to say Keegan is a better rebounder and scorer? Absolutely not. Better defender could certainly be argued. What’s crazy is saying that “we” likely lose if Connor doesn’t get hurt.

 

[Buffalo43]

What i dont like to see is when Conner is stuck guarding a taller 4 man down low he always loses that battle while

 

[24 so far]

Does Iowa score 7 less points than they’re averaging in B1G play going into today and do they commit 6 more turnovers than they’re averaging in B1G play going into today if Connor doesn’t get hurt?

Or 17 less points than average and 7 more turnovers than average for the year?

You're taking a lot for granted here, IMO. Most likely it isn't as good as you think it was going to be with Connor playing. And Rutgers looks better Defensively than most. But if that's your view, fine by me. Just win baby.

I think we can win with or without him. And I'm definitely not saying we lose if Connor plays. FWIW

 

[jonesy5960]

Not sure that it’s an either/or between Connor and Keegan.

Maybe more Keegan and less Nunge?

You know I agree that Nunge had some bad moments in the game today but he still had 5 points, 9 boards and 3 blocks in 19 minutes. Not a bad line. He takes a lot of flack but he's shooting 46% and his per 40 minute numbers have him tops on the team in rebounds, 3rd in blocks, 2nd in turnovers, and 3rd in scoring. His assists are better than Wieskamp and Pmac and comparable to Frederick. Those are pretty heady numbers for a guy that people seem to dismiss regularly on this board.

 

[RocknRollface]

I think we can all agree to disagree about players pros n cons..........Connor is a very valuable player as well as Keegan's. This bantering back n forth with what could have should have would have is nonsense. They both have shined so far and it's great fun to cheer for both.

I think we're all agreeing on what the pros and cons are, just disagreeing on which outweighs the other.

Im less sure after today really.

It was really annoying me that they couldn't get Garza the ball when he had that back up bozo on him.

But on the flip I love Murray. JBO had another solid game so im not sure who you would take out.

This team needs to figure out how to feed the post is the one thing im sure of.

 

[RocknRollface]

Not sure that it’s an either/or between Connor and Keegan.

Maybe more Keegan and less Nunge?

Yes

 

[RocknRollface]

You know I agree that Nunge had some bad moments in the game today but he still had 5 points, 9 boards and 3 blocks in 19 minutes. Not a bad line. He takes a lot if flack but he's shooting 46% and his per 40 minute numbers have him tops on the team in rebounds, 3rd in blocks, 2nd in turnovers, and 3rd in scoring. His assists are better than Wieskamp and Pmac and comparable to Frederick. Those are pretty heady numbers for a guy that people seem to dismiss regularly on this board.

He makes me nervous anytime he has the ball.

He regularly almost throws away outlets off of rebounds.

Makes weak passes, struggles to secure rebounds and falls down allot.

He does a good thing and then follows it up with something weird.

 

[iahawks10]

You're taking a lot for granted here, IMO. Most likely it isn't as good as you think it was going to be with Connor playing. And Rutgers looks better Defensively than most. But if that's your view, fine by me. Just win baby.

I was just playing devil’s advocate too and using stats like you and Jonesy like. I guess we’re only allowed to use stats when they fit your agenda.

Rutgers could be a defensive juggernaut, but a lot of the errors today were unforced by Iowa. Rutgers is 171 in adj defensive efficiency and Iowa 169th. Behind Gonzaga, UNC, Minnesota, and Northwestern’s as some of better defenses Iowa has faced this year.

 

[iahawks10]

You know I agree that Nunge had some bad moments in the game today but he still had 5 points, 9 boards and 3 blocks in 19 minutes. Not a bad line. He takes a lot of flack but he's shooting 46% and his per 40 minute numbers have him tops on the team in rebounds, 3rd in blocks, 2nd in turnovers, and 3rd in scoring. His assists are better than Wieskamp and Pmac and comparable to Frederick. Those are pretty heady numbers for a guy that people seem to dismiss regularly on this board.

I thought Nunge had a solid first half and I was one of a very few not trashing him in the game thread. Feel free to check it out. Nunge did a lot of things well in the first half, especially with a few blocks and big steal. Nunge also got unlucky on his first turnover in the second half when Fredrick undercut him on a rebound and rode him backwards. Nunge had a quick decision to travel or pass the ball. Unfortunately the pass was to Rutgers for an easy bucket.

But there are only so many minutes to go around between Garza, C McCaffery, Wieskamp, Murray, and Nunge. I think it’s fairly obvious (or at least I thought) who should be getting limited minutes and who has earned more playing time.

 

[joelbc1]

The interesting question always is, when does a coach decide when a player is not shooting well ... or when do they decide they won't start hitting shots at some point.

That is why coaches get paid.
One of the best stories I ever heard was from Ralph Miller. He talked about the day of reckoning every college basketball coach has. One day the coach realizes that his success and well-being is riding in the jock strap of a 19-20 year old kid who is bouncing a basketball up and down a basketball court. How comfortable can you be?

 

[24 so far]

I was just playing devil’s advocate too and using stats like you and Jonesy like. I guess we’re only allowed to use stats when they fit your agenda.

Rutgers could be a defensive juggernaut, but a lot of the errors today were unforced by Iowa. Rutgers is 171 in adj defensive efficiency and Iowa 169th. Behind Gonzaga, UNC, Minnesota, and Northwestern’s as some of better defenses Iowa has faced this year.

I like stats? Uuumm OK. It is kind of a part of Sports, but whatever. I like the eye test even more, and my eyes tell me Keegan Murray is better at Basketball than Connor is, and I like Connor just fine.

Rutgers looked active as hell on Defense to me, don't care what their rating is or was. Both teams sucked with the ball, don't know how many turnovers they had, but seemed like a lot.

This much I'm sure of, Connor is the most replaceable "starter" we have, and that has nothing to do with today's game, which we won.......

 

[iahawks10]

I like stats? Uuumm OK. It is kind of a part of Sports, but whatever. I like the eye test even more, and my eyes tell me Keegan Murray is better at Basketball than Connor is, and I like Connor just fine.

Rutgers looked active as hell on Defense to me, don't care what their rating is or was. Both teams sucked with the ball, don't know how many turnovers they had, but seemed like a lot.

This much I'm sure of, Connor is the most replaceable "starter" we have, and that has nothing to do with today's game, which we won.......

I’m sorry, I thought it was you that posted Connor’s “usual stat line” above when playing devil’s advocate.

You know, going into this season, I would have agreed with you 100% about Connor being the easiest starter to replace. Now I’m not so sure. Most games this year that would be JBo. Today a valid argument could be made for Wieskamp. Especially seeing how bad Iowa looked out of sorts on offense trying to get Garza the ball on the block. Garza finally started getting the ball on the wing and bringing it to the hoop himself.

 

[HawkLogic]

Actually it’s their first top 20 road win since beating MSU in 2015-16. Iowa also won at Purdue, who was ranked in the top 20, a few games before on Jan 2, 2016.

Is it crazy to say Keegan is a better rebounder and scorer? Absolutely not. Better defender could certainly be argued. What’s crazy is saying that “we” likely lose if Connor doesn’t get hurt.

Connor only played 3 min...that opened up 37 minutes for Keegan and Ulis at the two positions Connor plays...i.e. PF and PG. Keegan and Ulls combined put 5/10 from field, 5/5 from FT line, 5 assist, zero turnovers, and 12 rebounds....Connor has never come close to that production.

The guys not playing well on offense were JoeW and Fredrick.
If connor had played his normal 30 minutes and Fran had sat JoeW and Fredrick for Connor, then Iowa can still win. If Fran sits Keegan and Ulis to give Connor his 30 minutes, then Iowa loses.

Connor is nice role player ...Connor can play positions 1-4, if he plays it doesn't mean Keegan has to be on the bench.

I wouldn't guarantee Keegan and Ulis will always play as well as they did vs Rutgers, but their rebounding/quickness/defense is better and they will improve as season goes along.

 

[jonesy5960]

I was just playing devil’s advocate too and using stats like you and Jonesy like. I guess we’re only allowed to use stats when they fit your agenda.

Rutgers could be a defensive juggernaut, but a lot of the errors today were unforced by Iowa. Rutgers is 171 in adj defensive efficiency and Iowa 169th. Behind Gonzaga, UNC, Minnesota, and Northwestern’s as some of better defenses Iowa has faced this year.

Not sure where you're pulling numbers from but Kenpom ranks Rutgers defense at 27th in the country after today and Minnesota and Northwestern at 48 and 51 respectively. Gonzaga and UNC are higher at 17 and 20 respectively. Iowa is way back at 92.

 

[24 so far]

I’m sorry, I thought it was you that posted Connor’s “usual stat line” above when playing devil’s advocate.

You know, going into this season, I would have agreed with you 100% about Connor being the easiest starter to replace. Now I’m not so sure. Most games this year that would be JBo. Today a valid argument could be made for Wieskamp.

Joe had a tough day, and JBo has not been stellar, but both can light it up out of the blue and carry the Team at times, and you'll never get that from Connor, which is fine. He is what he is but I just can't go with the narrative he's that valuable. Maybe he is and I'm the idiot, certainly possible.

I just wish Connor was taller, faster, quicker and a better shooter, other than that, I'm fine with him.....Ha!

 

[iahawks10]

Not sure where you're pulling numbers from but Kenpom ranks Rutgers defense at 27th in the country after today and Minnesota and Northwestern at 48 and 51 respectively. Gonzaga and UNC are higher at 17 and 20 respectively. Iowa is way back at 92.

Team rankings.com

 

[jonesy5960]

He makes me nervous anytime he has the ball.

He regularly almost throws away outlets off of rebounds.

Makes weak passes, struggles to secure rebounds and falls down allot.

He does a good thing and then follows it up with something weird.

And yet his overall numbers are some of the best on the team.

 

[L. Wade Childress]

Connor only played 3 min...that opened up 37 minutes for Keegan and Ulis at the two positions Connor plays...i.e. PF and PG. Keegan and Ulls combined put 5/10 from field, 5/5 from FT line, 5 assist, zero turnovers, and 12 rebounds....Connor has never come close to that production.

The guys not playing well on offense were JoeW and Fredrick.
If connor had played his normal 30 minutes and Fran had sat JoeW and Fredrick for Connor, then Iowa can still win. If Fran sits Keegan and Ulis to give Connor his 30 minutes, then Iowa loses.

Connor is nice role player ...Connor can play positions 1-4, if he plays it doesn't mean Keegan has to be on the bench.

I wouldn't guarantee Keegan and Ulis will always play as well as they did vs Rutgers, but their rebounding/quickness/defense is better and they will improve as season goes along.

lol- you don’t think losing Connor hurt the other guys on offense?

 

[L. Wade Childress]

Team rankings.com

team rankings is mostly trash

 

[iahawks10]

Joe had a tough day, and JBo has not been stellar, but both can light it up out of the blue and carry the Team at times, and you'll never get that from Connor, which is fine. He is what he is but I just can't go with the narrative he's that valuable. Maybe he is and I'm the idiot, certainly possible.

I just wish Connor was taller, faster, quicker and a better shooter, other than that, I'm fine with him.....Ha!

Don’t get me wrong, when JBo and Wieskamp are on, they’re certainly better. Unfortunately JBo has been “on” about two times this year. Wieskamp did not have one of his best games today.

If you couldn’t see that Iowa struggled today to get the best big man in America the basketball, I don’t really know what else I can say.

 

[jonesy5960]

Team rankings.com

I could be wrong but I don't think those are adjusted to reflect the efficiency of the opponents that you've faced. That's what Kenpom does.

 

[jamesvanderwulf]

I'd give some credit on the TOs to Rutger's D. We have to be more careful entering to Garza and I thought he was a little lax in sealing off his defenders and we still forced some bad passes his way anyhow. . DD made a great comment about feeding Garza from the top of the key where it's harder to double down on him...

 

[24 so far]

Don’t get me wrong, when JBo and Wieskamp are on, they’re certainly better. Unfortunately JBo has been “on” about two times this year. Wieskamp did not have one of his best games today.

If you couldn’t see that Iowa struggled today to get the best big man in America the basketball, I don’t really know what else I can say.

I thought I saw several turnovers on the perimeter that had nothing to do with entry passes. This isn't as cut and dried as you're making it out to be. Believe it or not, I've seen Connor turn the ball over too.....

 

[lonewolf52]

I will say that I dont think we have nearly as many turnovers if CMac doesn't get hurt. He seems to be the only wone who can consisteny enter the ball to the post.

 

[ChuckBarkley]

I will say that I dont think we have nearly as many turnovers if CMac doesn't get hurt. He seems to be the only wone who can consisteny enter the ball to the post.

I can count at least 5 TOS on entry passes and a many other times when Garza had his man deep in the post and instead we swung the ball around.

 

[Loveblackandgold]

Many good points made on this thread. I am on the fence.....I am most comfortable in tight games with Conner on the floor as he just does not make mistakes. His basketball acumen is superb. He is not a scorer and never will be; however Conner is the floor general and brings swagger. He will be the first guy on the court to say you better not f—k with us. On the other hand you have to find more minutes for Keegan, and after watching the Rutgers game, Ulis. Great to have options! Go Hawks!

 

[kzoohawk80]

The problem for me is Keegan is a natural 4 and Connor's best position is PG. I'd start Connor at PG over Jbo. That would give us our best defensive lineup with Garza. Jbo, Toussaint and Nunge off the bench shouldn't equal lineup a that can't score which is Fran's huge problem when he plays a 2nd unit.

 

[jonesy5960]

I thought I saw several turnovers on the perimeter that had nothing to do with entry passes. This isn't as cut and dried as you're making it out to be. Believe it or not, I've seen Connor turn the ball over too.....

He had one yesterday in the first 2 minutes. Passing wasn't crisp yesterday and Rutgers plays very aggressive defense in denying the pass. JBo(4), Nunge (3) and Weiskamp (3) all had some bad turnovers.

 

[mooresville hawk]

It is a good problem to have when you have players fighting for minutes rather than getting minutes by default. Fran can continue to allocate minutes based on match ups and who has the hot hand.

I fully expect Connor to start because he has more experience and we hopefully will not need additional scoring with the other starters on the floor. It is good to have Keegan, Nunge, Patrick, Joe T, Ulis and/or Perkins available if any of the starters are injured or having an off night.