Commentary: How the NRA conquered Washington and abandoned gun owners like me
- Thread starter cigaretteman
- Start date
Oh yeah....I may have a guy come in an shoot at us in our office....the chance isn't high, but the guy gives me that Dylan Kiebold type of feeling....I now keep a night stick and mace. I refuse to carry a gun. I am not a pussy.
It's not exactly easy to get a Class 3 license to buy the real McCoy. Otherwise you're just buying an oversized semi auto pistol
I've learned its a waste of time to argue with an ignorant man.
Yep because very few people vote for life consistently. They all just disagree on who we should kill and when.
It's a requirement for wingnuts. Look at how they all lap up the "alternative facts" spewed by the Trump administration. They live in denial, and lap up the wingnut mythologies as if they were some how true, no matter how many times they've been refuted. Anthropogenic global warming is a hoax. Scientists are getting rich off of grants to make up stories about global warming. Evolution is just a "theory." Tax cuts for the wealthy pay for themselves and turbo charge the economy. 47% of Americans are lazy moochers who pay no taxes. The list goes on and on. They truly do occupy an alternative reality.
The FBI has published a brief report on the shooting in Alexandria. It is devastating to the idea that the gun-control measures presently coveted by the Democratic party would have done something to prevent the attack.
Over the past two decades, Democrats have focused on three major proposals for reform. They are: 1) That all private transfers should be contingent upon a federal background check; 2) That firearms that look a certain way should be classed as “assault weapons” and prohibited from sale; and 3) That civilians should be forbidden from buying magazines that hold more than 10 rounds. None of these proposals intersect with what happened in Alexandria.
First, the FBI confirms that Hodgkinson moved to Virginia in March of 2017: In March 2017, Hodgkinson, of Belleville, Illinois, told a family member that he was traveling to Washington D.C., but he did not provide any additional information on his travel. FBI analysis of Hodgkinson’s computers showed a Google search of truck stops, maps, and toll-free routes to the Northern Virginia area.
Prior to his travel, local law enforcement in Belleville had been called to Hodgkinson’s residence due to complaints of target practice he was conducting on his property. Local law enforcement requested he keep the noise down but determined Hodgkinson was not in violation of any local laws. Hodgkinson’s prior criminal record includes a charge of domestic battery in 2006.
Evidence collected thus far indicates Hodgkinson had been in the Alexandria area since March 2017. It then confirms where — and how — he obtained his weapons: The investigation thus far determined that Hodgkinson purchased his SKS 7.62mm caliber rifle in March 2003 and 9mm handgun in November 2016 legally through federal firearms licensees. The investigation has determined that there were cartridges found to be chambered in the SKS rifle and the FBI’s Evidence Response Team found 9mm and 7.62mm shell casings on scene. The SKS rifle was modified to accept a detachable magazine and the original stock was replaced with a folding stock.
This means that Hodgkinson bought the guns in Illinois, where he was resident. Why does this matter? Well, because before they knew anything about the case, many in the press had reflexively tried to use the incident as an argument for stricter gun control. The Atlantic’s David Frum, for example, immediately went on an error-laden tear about Virginia’s laws, which he considers to be too lax, and then took to proposing the sort of “common sense” reforms that the Democratic party has been so impotently trying to sell.
But, as the FBI confirms, this reaction was an ignorant one. For a start, the guns weren’t bought in Virginia; they were bought in Illinois, which has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. And they weren’t purchased privately, illegally, or without attendant background checks, but “legally through federal firearms licensees” that are obliged under federal law to run checks.
Moreover, Hodgkinson only got the weapons after he obtained an additional possession-and-purchase license (FOID) of the sort that more extreme gun-control advocates want to see made mandatory in all states.
Or, put another way: Illinois has stricter rules than even Barack Obama endorsed — it quite literally licenses all gun-owners in the state — and those rules made no difference to this case.
Alas, the errors don’t end there. Frum and co. also berated Virginia for being among the 40+ states to permit open carry. But Alexandria, where the shooting took place, doesn’t permit open carry, a fact that prompted one of the most hilariously convoluted arguments I have seen in my life.
Others talked about both “assault weapons” and “high-capacity” magazines. But as the FBI notes, the firearm used was an SKS in 7.62mm, which has never been classed as an “assault weapon,” and which wasn’t included in the ban that obtained from 1994-2004.
Further, when he bought it, Hodgkinson’s SKS was unable to take “high-capacity” magazines at all; rather, it came with an internal 10-round box magazine. Per the report, Hodgkinson seems to have modified it to take external magazines after the purchase, a change that raises the fair question of how effective any at-sale restrictions can really be in stopping the determined. Either way, even after he modified it there is no evidence that Hodgkinson introduced a larger than 10-round external magazine (that’s the standard for the modified SKS), or that, if he did, it had any effect on the outcome.
Finally, I am seeing it said that Hodgkinson should not have had his weapons — and shouldn’t have been permitted to buy his handgun in 2016 — because he was a “domestic abuser.”
But that’s not true either. The FBI report confirms that “Hodgkinson’s prior criminal record includes a charge of domestic battery in 2006.” Note the key word: “charge.” Charge, not “conviction.”
I understand that this is an emotive issue, but we presumably do not want to start taking away people’s rights on the basis of accusations alone? There are a lot of terrible men out there — men who do unspeakable things to women. Perhaps Hodgkinson was one of them; perhaps he was not. Either way, unless a person has been convicted of a crime he remains innocent under the law, and he must be treated as such by the state. Due process matters, and I hope that our self-described “liberals” are not going to abandon their commitment to it simply because they dislike the Second Amendment.
Now, there will be be voters out there who say, “Fine, but I don’t want these sorts of minor changes, I want to get rid of all the guns.” And that’s fair enough, if extraordinary naive. But we need to separate out that argument from the ones we actually hear.
Repeatedly, conservatives such as myself are told that “confiscation” and “outright banning” are red herrings and straw men and “NRA lies,” and that what is being proposed is merely ”common sense” gun control.
Specifically, we are pitched on the ideas I mentioned above — and they are sold as the means by which incidents such as this one will be prevented. Well, those ideas didn’t have anything to do with this incident, and those who are honestly limiting their ambitions to them need to stop for a moment and acknowledge that. And if they’re really talking about something else . . . well, they should acknowledge that, too.
Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corne...quietly-debunks-gun-controlers-talking-points
Over the past two decades, Democrats have focused on three major proposals for reform. They are: 1) That all private transfers should be contingent upon a federal background check; 2) That firearms that look a certain way should be classed as “assault weapons” and prohibited from sale; and 3) That civilians should be forbidden from buying magazines that hold more than 10 rounds. None of these proposals intersect with what happened in Alexandria.
First, the FBI confirms that Hodgkinson moved to Virginia in March of 2017: In March 2017, Hodgkinson, of Belleville, Illinois, told a family member that he was traveling to Washington D.C., but he did not provide any additional information on his travel. FBI analysis of Hodgkinson’s computers showed a Google search of truck stops, maps, and toll-free routes to the Northern Virginia area.
Prior to his travel, local law enforcement in Belleville had been called to Hodgkinson’s residence due to complaints of target practice he was conducting on his property. Local law enforcement requested he keep the noise down but determined Hodgkinson was not in violation of any local laws. Hodgkinson’s prior criminal record includes a charge of domestic battery in 2006.
Evidence collected thus far indicates Hodgkinson had been in the Alexandria area since March 2017. It then confirms where — and how — he obtained his weapons: The investigation thus far determined that Hodgkinson purchased his SKS 7.62mm caliber rifle in March 2003 and 9mm handgun in November 2016 legally through federal firearms licensees. The investigation has determined that there were cartridges found to be chambered in the SKS rifle and the FBI’s Evidence Response Team found 9mm and 7.62mm shell casings on scene. The SKS rifle was modified to accept a detachable magazine and the original stock was replaced with a folding stock.
This means that Hodgkinson bought the guns in Illinois, where he was resident. Why does this matter? Well, because before they knew anything about the case, many in the press had reflexively tried to use the incident as an argument for stricter gun control. The Atlantic’s David Frum, for example, immediately went on an error-laden tear about Virginia’s laws, which he considers to be too lax, and then took to proposing the sort of “common sense” reforms that the Democratic party has been so impotently trying to sell.
But, as the FBI confirms, this reaction was an ignorant one. For a start, the guns weren’t bought in Virginia; they were bought in Illinois, which has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. And they weren’t purchased privately, illegally, or without attendant background checks, but “legally through federal firearms licensees” that are obliged under federal law to run checks.
Moreover, Hodgkinson only got the weapons after he obtained an additional possession-and-purchase license (FOID) of the sort that more extreme gun-control advocates want to see made mandatory in all states.
Or, put another way: Illinois has stricter rules than even Barack Obama endorsed — it quite literally licenses all gun-owners in the state — and those rules made no difference to this case.
Alas, the errors don’t end there. Frum and co. also berated Virginia for being among the 40+ states to permit open carry. But Alexandria, where the shooting took place, doesn’t permit open carry, a fact that prompted one of the most hilariously convoluted arguments I have seen in my life.
Others talked about both “assault weapons” and “high-capacity” magazines. But as the FBI notes, the firearm used was an SKS in 7.62mm, which has never been classed as an “assault weapon,” and which wasn’t included in the ban that obtained from 1994-2004.
Further, when he bought it, Hodgkinson’s SKS was unable to take “high-capacity” magazines at all; rather, it came with an internal 10-round box magazine. Per the report, Hodgkinson seems to have modified it to take external magazines after the purchase, a change that raises the fair question of how effective any at-sale restrictions can really be in stopping the determined. Either way, even after he modified it there is no evidence that Hodgkinson introduced a larger than 10-round external magazine (that’s the standard for the modified SKS), or that, if he did, it had any effect on the outcome.
Finally, I am seeing it said that Hodgkinson should not have had his weapons — and shouldn’t have been permitted to buy his handgun in 2016 — because he was a “domestic abuser.”
But that’s not true either. The FBI report confirms that “Hodgkinson’s prior criminal record includes a charge of domestic battery in 2006.” Note the key word: “charge.” Charge, not “conviction.”
I understand that this is an emotive issue, but we presumably do not want to start taking away people’s rights on the basis of accusations alone? There are a lot of terrible men out there — men who do unspeakable things to women. Perhaps Hodgkinson was one of them; perhaps he was not. Either way, unless a person has been convicted of a crime he remains innocent under the law, and he must be treated as such by the state. Due process matters, and I hope that our self-described “liberals” are not going to abandon their commitment to it simply because they dislike the Second Amendment.
Now, there will be be voters out there who say, “Fine, but I don’t want these sorts of minor changes, I want to get rid of all the guns.” And that’s fair enough, if extraordinary naive. But we need to separate out that argument from the ones we actually hear.
Repeatedly, conservatives such as myself are told that “confiscation” and “outright banning” are red herrings and straw men and “NRA lies,” and that what is being proposed is merely ”common sense” gun control.
Specifically, we are pitched on the ideas I mentioned above — and they are sold as the means by which incidents such as this one will be prevented. Well, those ideas didn’t have anything to do with this incident, and those who are honestly limiting their ambitions to them need to stop for a moment and acknowledge that. And if they’re really talking about something else . . . well, they should acknowledge that, too.
Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corne...quietly-debunks-gun-controlers-talking-points
Lots of facts out there. More guns = more gun deaths. Not to hard to understand.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/...ath-rates-the-us-is-in-a-different-world.html
The mass shooting in Orlando on Sunday was appalling in scale: 49 killed in a single attack. But it’s not unusual for dozens of Americans to be killed by guns in a single day.
Gun homicides are a common cause of death in the United States, killing about as many people as car crashes (not counting van, truck, motorcycle or bus accidents). Some cases command our attention more than others, of course. Counting mass shootings that make headlines and the thousands of Americans murdered one or a few at a time, gunshot homicides totaled 8,124 in 2014, according to the F.B.I.
This level of violence makes the United States an extreme outlier when measured against the experience of other advanced countries.
Around the world, those countries have substantially lower rates of deaths from gun homicide. In Germany, being murdered with a gun is as uncommon as being killed by a falling object in the United States. About two people out of every million are killed in a gun homicide. Gun homicides are just as rare in several other European countries, including the Netherlands and Austria. In the United States, two per million is roughly the death rate for hypothermia or plane crashes.
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Gun Seller: ‘Sorry He Picked My Place’JUNE 13, 2016
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In Poland and England, only about one out of every million people die in gun homicides each year — about as often as an American dies in an agricultural accident or falling from a ladder. In Japan, where gun homicides are even rarer, the likelihood of dying this way is about the same as an American’s chance of being killed by lightning — roughly one in 10 million.
In the United States, the death rate from gun homicides is about 31 per million people — the equivalent of 27 people shot dead every day of the year. The homicides include losses from mass shootings, like Sunday’s Orlando attack, or the San Bernardino, Calif., shooting last December. And of course, they also include the country’s vastly more common single-victim killings.
To give you a sense of how unusual America’s gun violence problem is, consider the daily death toll compared with other Western democracies. The chart below imagines that the populations of those countries were the same as the population of the United States.
No Other Rich Western Country Comes Close
Gun homicides per day if each country had the same population as the U.S.
$40,000
60,000
80,000
100,000
30
25
20
15
10
5
0
G.D.P. per capita
United States
Luxembourg
Norway
Ireland
Austria
Germany
Australia
Canada
Iceland
Finland
Spain
Slovenia
Portugal
Lithuania
Greece
Shown are Western countries that have G.D.P. per capita over $25,000 and that make statistics on gun homicides available.
Sources: Small Arms Survey (2007–12 average); World Bank
International comparisons help highlight how exceptional the United States is: In a nation where the right to bear arms is cherished by much of the population, gun homicides are a significant public health concern. For men 15 to 29, they are the third-leading cause of death, after accidents and suicides. In other high-income countries, gun homicides are unusual events. Last year’s Paris attacks killed 130 people, which is nearly as many as die from gun homicides in all of France in a typical year. But even if France had a mass shooting as deadly as the Paris attacks every month, its annual rate of gun homicide death would be lower than that in the United States.
The accompanying table shows the mortality rates for gun homicides in a variety of countries, along with a correspondingly likely cause of death in the United States.
Being killed with a gun here: Is about as likely as
dying of ________ in the U.S. Deaths per mil.
El Salvador Heart attack 446.3
Mexico Pancreatic cancer 121.7
United States Car accident* 31.2
Chile Motorcycle accident 14.3
Israel Building fire 7.5
Canada Alcohol poisoning 5.6
Ireland Drowning in a lake, river or ocean 4.8
Netherlands Accidental gas poisoning 2.3
Germany Contact with a thrown or falling object 2.1
France Hypothermia 2.0
Austria Drowning in a swimming pool 1.9
Australia Falling from a building or structure 1.7
China Plane crash 1.6
Spain Exposure to excessive natural heat 1.6
New Zealand Falling from a ladder 1.5
Poland Bicycle-car crash 1.1
England Contact with agricultural machinery 0.9
Norway Accidental hanging or strangulation 0.9
Iceland Electrocution 0.6
Scotland Cataclysmic storms 0.5
South Korea Being crushed or pinched between objects 0.4
Japan Lightning strike 0.1
Note: Rates are averages of data available from 2007 to 2012; car accidents includes car occupants only; not van, truck, motorcycle or bus accidents
Source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Small Arms Survey
Our gun homicide numbers come from the Small Arms Survey, a Swiss nonprofit affiliated with the Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies, and represent the average gun homicide death rates with data available in those countries between 2007 and 2012. (Data was unavailable for some countries in later years of that period). The United States death rates come from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention over those same years. There are more recent statistics on American gun deaths, like the F.B.I. number at the top of this article, but we chose these years to provide fair comparisons. We focused on the rates of gun homicides; the overall rate of gun deaths is substantially higher, because suicides make up a majority of gun deaths in the United States and are also higher than in other developed countries.
The table is not meant to make light of rare causes of death. Instead, we show them as a way to help think meaningfully about the differences among gun death rates.
You refuse to look at any other view point. More guns = more guns deaths. Not that hard to understand really is it?
That is total BS. There are 3 times as many people killed in car crashes even if you include justifiable homicide by police and self defense.
I don't want more gun regulations due to mass shootings. There isn't likely a reasonable way that those could be prevented via gun laws. I'm more concerned about the gang warfare going on in the cities. Straw Purchaser's getting their guns to convicted felons is something we absolutely aught to be able to prevent.
I agree with everything you've said here. The real problem is it is already against the law to do a straw purchase, it is seldom enforced, and people just don't care.
The anemic gun laws we have are rarely enforced. County attorneys know its a waste of time to prosecute.
Be part of the solution.
I'm not worried about you. Its all the people who aren't responsible enough, people who will sell guns to anybody and if you think that does not happen you should go to one of our local gun shows. Cash and no questions asked.
Gun deaths have risen because of the increased number of guns on the street. I did financial work at two gun manufacturers, they make a lot of money, they own politicians. This is a gun industrial complex issue, just like the military industrial complex Dwight Eisenhower warned us about. They are making money, politicians are getting paid and they don't care who gets hurt.
The only way to truly fight tyranny is to be an informed, critical-thinking populace, able to parse mis- and dis-information for actual factual accounts of what is going on in our world.
We're currently embracing our own—mostly self-inflicted—tyranny by accepting false, agenda-driven information, determinedly spinning own webs of confirmation bias.
Please explain—that post you claim to be ridiculous, but why? Our POTUS campaigned on this message, did he not? All that vilification of "the elites" had teeth because, well, it has teeth. The vilification was resigned to the "liberal elites" because, you know, conservative elites are okay. But the point remains, tyranny is partly defined by a minority ruling the majority for predominantly minority interests. Clearly this is the case. One need look no further than the extreme consolidation of wealth, or to the insane Citizens United decision.
That you apparently only can see tyranny as something wearing the colors of Democrats, or Liberals, is very revealing—and something I think would do you some good to consider.
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The vast majority of all gun dealers at a gun show are FFL dealers and the same background check laws apply to them there or at their place of business.
Privater sales do take place at some gun shows. The same laws or lack of laws apply to sellers there as they would in a Walmart parking lot. It depends on the State, some require a FFL transfer all sales. About 2% of guns used in criminal activity have been found to have come from gun shows. If this were made illegal nation wide, criminals would simply get their guns from the same place that the other 98% of guns come from.Nothing will change.
We have a record amount of guns on the streets right now. The last 8 years were the biggest boom to the gun industry ever. We have a gun for every human in this country, we have 4 guns for every dog in this country. There's a lot of frickin guns in the US, the most ever! So with that out of the way, we must be having a record amount of gun deaths, correct? No?
You've repeated over and over and over that more guns on the street mean more gun deaths. How could we possibly have the most guns on the street ever in the history of this great nation and not have the most gun deaths ever if guns are the problem? Could it be that there are other contributing factors?
Let me ask you one other question. What do you think came first, gun manufactures buying politicians or politicians trying to put them out of business. Clinton's plan to flood the gun industry with frivolous lawsuits and bankrupt them was one fine example.
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