Common Denominator Among Final Four Teams

[WAHawkeye]

Experience matters. To a lesser extent with South Carolina (the lowest seed of the four teams), the other teams are led by players with multiple years of playing division one basketball.

Gonzaga is led by Williams-Goss (JR transfer), Karnowski (SR), Mathews (SR, transfer) and Williams (JR, transfer).

North Carolina is led by Jackson (JR), Berry II (JR), Meeks (SR) & Hicks (SR).

Oregon is led by Brooks (JR), Dorsey (Soph), Bell (JR) & let's not forget injured Boucher (SR.).

South Carolina's best player is Thornwell (SR) with Notice (SR) as well.

Iowa needs to keep its core group together, add some a piece or two along the way, and gain experience. In Fran we trust.

 

[NevadaHawk]

I believe the next three years of Iowa basketball will rank among some of the best all time Hawkeye teams. Book it.

 

[K OKeefe]

I agree with your experience comment; however, I see the common denominator among the four teams is they all play good to great defense. They have rim protectors and athletic guards that can guard the perimeter and chase and harass outside shooter off of the 3 point line. As Frank Martin to the SI Kids reporter, defense starts with attitude. Iowa lacks the attitude to play defense. According to Martin, if the players have the attitude to play defense then they can learn how to play defense. Martin took KSU to the Elite Eight and now South Carolina to the Final Four.

 

[ChrisVarick]

Let's not downplay the amount of athleticism. I don't watch a lot of college football and basketball until bowl and tournament time. These elite teams have athletes and systems that don't compare well with Iowa.

I like our basketball core and it would be nice to keep them together. That being said without a super athletic PG and another big time athlete like Cook we don't stand a chance.

 

[K OKeefe]

Let's not downplay the amount of athleticism. I don't watch a lot of college football and basketball until bowl and tournament time. These elite teams have athletes and systems that don't compare well with Iowa.

I like our basketball core and it would be nice to keep them together. That being said without a super athletic PG and another big time athlete like Cook we don't stand a chance.

You are correct Iowa does not have many "athletically" gifted guys on it roster. The question is why? Frank Martin has been able to recruit athletic players to South Carolina, a weak basketball school in what many considered a weak conference.

 

[IowaNiceHawk]

Gonzaga doesn't seem overly athletic.
IOWA does need all of its players to BUY-IN to playing suffocating defense.



GO HAWKS

 

[NI hawk]

None of the teams are playing 11 different players in the first half. 7-8 man rotations. Occasionally a 9th gets a couple minutes.

 

[HawkAssassin]

You are correct Iowa does not have many "athletically" gifted guys on it roster. The question is why? Frank Martin has been able to recruit athletic players to South Carolina, a weak basketball school in what many considered a weak conference.

SEC schools have never struggled to recruit athleticism dude.

 

[paladinhawk]

Iowa lacks the attitude to play defense. According to Martin, if the players has the attitude to play defense then they can learn how to play defense.

Look at where some of the previous Iowa teams ranked. Ken Pom has them at #30 last year.Hopefully Fran and staff will focus on defense this next year - the TCU and Indiana games should provide some motivation.

 

[K OKeefe]

SEC schools have never struggled to recruit athleticism dude.

First off I am not your dude! Second, South Carolina has very little basketball history and their program was worse than a "dumpster fire" when Frank Martin took over- since 1998 they had two NCAA Tournament appearance before this year.

 

[K OKeefe]

Look at where some of the previous Iowa teams ranked. Ken Pom has them at #30 last year.Hopefully Fran and staff will focus on defense this next year - the TCU and Indiana games should provide some motivation.

What indication of Fran's tenure at Iowa indicates he is going to focus on defense?

 

[cocoem]

None of the teams are playing 11 different players in the first half. 7-8 man rotations. Occasionally a 9th gets a couple minutes.

I think the "going 11 deep" is a little over played. I believe Kentucky and N Carolina played 10 yesterday. Most games Fran is playing 8 or 9 with a couple other guys getting 3-5 minutes somehow. Most school do it....Iowa fans want to micro manage every second of football and basketball. Most (not all) really think they know more for some reason.

 

[NI hawk]

I think the "going 11 deep" is a little over played. I believe Kentucky and N Carolina played 10 yesterday. Most games Fran is playing 8 or 9 with a couple other guys getting 3-5 minutes somehow. Most school do it....Iowa fans want to micro manage every second of football and basketball. Most (not all) really think they know more for some reason.

Check out the box scores.

 

[perryhawk]

Experience is a big deal....and we will acquire it. Athleticism is a big deal....and we have it. Size is somewhat important and we will have it.

I read or heard something today that said the common denominator statistically between these final four teams is that their 3 point defense. Each of them hold teams to 32% or less from 3 point range.

 

[HawkAssassin]

First off I am not your dude! Second, South Carolina has very little basketball history and their program was worse than a "dumpster fire" when Frank Martin took over- since 1998 they had two NCAA Tournament appearance before this year.

Cool.

And none of that changes that no SEC school (sans Vandy) struggles to recruit athletes for incredibly obvious reasons.

 

[Hawk_4shur]

It seems too me that the "athletic" measurables of these teams (speed, strength, agility, hops) exceed any Iowa team in the last 20 years, I don't think the Hawks are in the same area code, nor do I think they will be any time soon.

On the other hand, I saw LOTS of bad shots, bad passes, dumb fouls, one-on-one basketball - it looked like street ball a lot of the time.

For Iowa to win at this level, it's going to have to be the Wisky Way IMO. Good shooting, good passing and low turnovers, along with solid defense and rebounding. I think they can do that under Fran.

 

[TheGuy9]

First off I am not your dude! Second, South Carolina has very little basketball history and their program was worse than a "dumpster fire" when Frank Martin took over- since 1998 they had two NCAA Tournament appearance before this year.

Sorry, I have to agree with K Okeefe. What happened 15, 20 or even 5 years ago isn't relative today. Illinois used to own Chicago in recruiting, Not so in the last few years. What happened at South Carolina is recent, but fueled by their population base, geographic location, weather, and picturesque setting. Iowa has a smaller population by about 1.8 million people, a terrible geographic location (flat and in the middle of nowhere), snow, sleet and cold vs. temperate climate if not down right nice most of the time, and corn fields, vs mountains and a couple of hour drive to the ocean.
They have something other than playing time to sell as do we, but education isn't really important to most 18 year old's who believe their next stop is professional basketball.

 

[zoe22]

Unc almost always goes 10 deep, every game.

Check out the box scores.

 

[DodgerHawki]

Experience matters. To a lesser extent with South Carolina (the lowest seed of the four teams), the other teams are led by players with multiple years of playing division one basketball.

Gonzaga is led by Williams-Goss (JR transfer), Karnowski (SR), Mathews (SR, transfer) and Williams (JR, transfer).

North Carolina is led by Jackson (JR), Berry II (JR), Meeks (SR) & Hicks (SR).

Oregon is led by Brooks (JR), Dorsey (Soph), Bell (JR) & let's not forget injured Boucher (SR.).

South Carolina's best player is Thornwell (SR) with Notice (SR) as well.

Iowa needs to keep its core group together, add some a piece or two along the way, and gain experience. In Fran we trust.

All 4 teams left rank in the Top 20 of Pomeroy's adjusted defensive efficiency rankings. Gonzaga is 1 and South Carolina is 2. UNC and Oregon are top 20. It's a common theme of the last decade or so, near impossible to get that far without being really good defensively. Don't look at points per game, as that doesn't take into account how fast a team plays. It's why North Carolina doesn't rank highly in defensive points per game. They will play fast, with possessions in the 70s. You might get 70 or so against them, but they will get more than that.

Experience matters in the sense that older teams tend to understand the importance of defense and freshmen may not understand the commitment level to be good on that end of the floor. Does this Iowa group have the chops to be a Top 20-25 defensive team at some point? Maybe. Based on this year, there is a long, long way to go.

 

[HawkLogic]

I agree with your experience comment; however, I see the common denominator among the four teams is they all play good to great defense. They have rim protectors and athletic guards that can guard the perimeter and chase and harass outside shooter off of the 3 point line. As Frank Martin to the SI Kids reporter, defense starts with attitude. Iowa lacks the attitude to play defense. According to Martin, if the players has the attitude to play defense then they can learn how to play defense. Martin took KSU to the Elite Eight and now South Carolina to the Final Four.

I agree. South Carolina plays great defense. Oregon defense also bothered Michigan and Kansas. They had a shot blocking/rebounding stud at center. Oregon likes to run and still they play good defense...Fran should take note.

 

[EduNeerHawk]

Cool.

And none of that changes that no SEC school (sans Vandy) struggles to recruit athletes for incredibly obvious reasons.

It seems too me that the "athletic" measurables of these teams (speed, strength, agility, hops) exceed any Iowa team in the last 20 years, I don't think the Hawks are in the same area code, nor do I think they will be any time soon.

On the other hand, I saw LOTS of bad shots, bad passes, dumb fouls, one-on-one basketball - it looked like street ball a lot of the time.

For Iowa to win at this level, it's going to have to be the Wisky Way IMO. Good shooting, good passing and low turnovers, along with solid defense and rebounding. I think they can do that under Fran.

Gotta shot out to Assassin and 4 shur's posts above.... Granted SC has not been a power house but what Assassin is saying and is obvious to me anyway is take a taxi cab ride or rent a car from Enterprise around that geography and there is plenty of extremely talented, athletic BB talent that a guy/recruiter (?) like Frank Martin can have a hay day with recruiting the kind of players he has had great success with.....good for Frank and I see those same kind of athletes on the football field for SC.

I said this in the Archie Miller thread.

"As far as Archie is concerned and no fault of his but there is always great talent in that Dayton/Cincy area. I'll never forget playing that Cincy team in the 2005 NCAA Tournament as a #10 seed and we lost 76–64 to Cincinnati in the first round. This was an Alford team but damn were they athletic...geesh they could jump out of the gym."

This kind of talent makes a difference in the game of BB, on both ends of the floor.....and here is Alford now at UCLA and he can take a taxi cab ride around the LA/Long Beach area just to pick one of a thousand areas in that neck of the woods to find a few very very good 4/5 star talent.... much, much better than he would be able to recruit to Iowa. I like Greg Brunner but just saying...Greg was playing against those Cincy players back in 2005.

What was it...Tyler Smith maybe the most athletic player SA recruited to come to Iowa City and that was a lot because of Noodles who had some contacts?? I see an SC roster full of Tyler Smith type talents.....makes a difference to have a handful or two of them.

 

[2432Hawk]

for the 2nd straight year, all 4 teams in the Final Four rank in the Top 25 for Defensive Efficiency.

 

[hooper56]

I agree with your experience comment; however, I see the common denominator among the four teams is they all play good to great defense. They have rim protectors and athletic guards that can guard the perimeter and chase and harass outside shooter off of the 3 point line. As Frank Martin to the SI Kids reporter, defense starts with attitude. Iowa lacks the attitude to play defense. According to Martin, if the players has the attitude to play defense then they can learn how to play defense. Martin took KSU to the Elite Eight and now South Carolina to the Final Four.

In our biggest wins of the year I thought the kids displayed a great "attitude" towards defense. But I agree that we have to improve in this area.

 

[K OKeefe]

Gotta shot out to Assassin and 4 shur's posts above.... Granted SC has not been a power house but what Assassin is saying and is obvious to me anyway is take a taxi cab ride or rent a car from Enterprise around that geography and there is plenty of extremely talented, athletic BB talent that a guy/recruiter (?) like Frank Martin can have a hay day with recruiting the kind of players he has had great success with.....good for Frank and I see those same kind of athletes on the football field for SC.

I said this in the Archie Miller thread.

"As far as Archie is concerned and no fault of his but there is always great talent in that Dayton/Cincy area. I'll never forget playing that Cincy team in the 2005 NCAA Tournament as a #10 seed and we lost 76–64 to Cincinnati in the first round. This was an Alford team but damn were they athletic...geesh they could jump out of the gym."

This kind of talent makes a difference in the game of BB, on both ends of the floor.....and here is Alford now at UCLA and he can take a taxi cab ride around the LA/Long Beach area just to pick one of a thousand areas in that neck of the woods to find a few very very good 4/5 star talent.... much, much better than he would be able to recruit to Iowa. I like Greg Brunner but just saying...Greg was playing against those Cincy players back in 2005.

What was it...Tyler Smith maybe the most athletic player SA recruited to come to Iowa City and that was a lot because of Noodles who had some contacts?? I see an SC roster full of Tyler Smith type talents.....makes a difference to have a handful or two of them.

That talent has always been a stones throw away from the South Carolina campus so one would think that looking back over the last 20 years South Carolina has been a factor in the NCAA. However, prior to this year South Carolina has been to a total of 2 NCAA Tournaments. Did South Carolina move its campus? Of course not, it is the coach not the location of the school that is the biggest determining factor to a schools success in recruiting. Why were all these top flight players not attending South Carolina prior to Frank Martin arriving at SC?

 

[K OKeefe]

In our biggest wins of the year I thought the kids displayed a great "attitude" towards defense. But I agree that we have to improve in this area.

I agree; however as you stated the defensive effort was not consistent and many times non-existent like the TCU game in the NIT.

 

[dawgs_04]

This current roster will continue to struggle defensively against athletic teams.

I saw UNC, Seton Hall, and Arkansas in person. Those teams have a gear that the Hawks don't. The athleticism was crazy. Side Note: athleticism =/= good basketball.

The Hawks can win following the Michigan/Wisco pattern: limit turnovers, shooting, and defense. The defense needs to improve, but is severely limited at the top of the key. I look forward to seeing if they can put it all together in the next few years.

 

[cocoem]

Check out the box scores.

Going 8-9 deep is a good problem and there are reasons. 50% of the people watching always want the 6-9 guy playing anyway. We have the other 50% wanting JB to play less because he isn't good enough. (by the way comical)

8-9 guys on the Iowa roster are getting 15+ a game I am guessing. It changes game to game because of the match-up or the flow. Have no idea why people make a big deal out of it.

 

[NI hawk]

Going 8-9 deep is a good problem and there are reasons. 50% of the people watching always want the 6-9 guy playing anyway. We have the other 50% wanting JB to play less because he isn't good enough. (by the way comical)

8-9 guys on the Iowa roster are getting 15+ a game I am guessing. It changes game to game because of the match-up or the flow. Have no idea why people make a big deal out of it.

Don't know why JB got brought up in this conversation, but I was one of the few last July that said he was better than Williams. Iowa can make it work with a 8-9 deep lineup. Hopefully they do. Teams that go to the elite 8 or final four generally give significant minutes to 7-8 guys. Iowa's last final four run had 7 guys in the rotation and four of them played with injuries.

 

[HawkAssassin]

That talent has always been a stones throw away from the South Carolina campus so one would think that looking back over the last 20 years South Carolina has been a factor in the NCAA. However, prior to this year South Carolina has been to a total of 2 NCAA Tournaments. Did South Carolina move its campus? Of course not, it is the coach not the location of the school that is the biggest determining factor to a schools success in recruiting. Why were all these top flight players not attending South Carolina prior to Frank Martin arriving at SC?

Welp, time to close up shop guys. No need to try and compete with Frank Martin's magical defensive and recruiting prowess of 1 tournament bid and 3 four stars in 5 years.

I know we've all seen what a powerhouse LSU has become in the past decade after making the final four and Carolina looks primed to join that illustrious group.

In other news, I saw a blind squirrel find a nut today. What an inspiration.

 

[K OKeefe]

Welp, time to close up shop guys. No need to try and compete with Frank Martin's magical defensive and recruiting prowess of 1 tournament bid and 3 four stars in 5 years.

I know we've all seen what a powerhouse LSU has become in the past decade after making the final four and Carolina looks primed to join that illustrious group.

In other news, I saw a blind squirrel find a nut today. What an inspiration.

Considering Frank Martin has led two teams to, at least, the Elite Eight, I would contend we will see his South Carolina team again.

 

[youcantguardme]

Welp, time to close up shop guys. No need to try and compete with Frank Martin's magical defensive and recruiting prowess of 1 tournament bid and 3 four stars in 5 years.

I know we've all seen what a powerhouse LSU has become in the past decade after making the final four and Carolina looks primed to join that illustrious group.

In other news, I saw a blind squirrel find a nut today. What an inspiration.

You should post more often.

 

[GoHawks2009]

I believe the next three years of Iowa basketball will rank among some of the best all time Hawkeye teams. Book it.

Well sh**....

 

[GoHawks2009]

Welp, time to close up shop guys. No need to try and compete with Frank Martin's magical defensive and recruiting prowess of 1 tournament bid and 3 four stars in 5 years.

I know we've all seen what a powerhouse LSU has become in the past decade after making the final four and Carolina looks primed to join that illustrious group.

In other news, I saw a blind squirrel find a nut today. What an inspiration.

The nut was put in front of the squirrel who was given specific instructions on how to find it.

 

[BirdistheWord]

It seems too me that the "athletic" measurables of these teams (speed, strength, agility, hops) exceed any Iowa team in the last 20 years, I don't think the Hawks are in the same area code, nor do I think they will be any time soon.

On the other hand, I saw LOTS of bad shots, bad passes, dumb fouls, one-on-one basketball - it looked like street ball a lot of the time.

For Iowa to win at this level, it's going to have to be the Wisky Way IMO. Good shooting, good passing and low turnovers, along with solid defense and rebounding. I think they can do that under Fran.

You make some good points that I agree with, especially bolded. However, I think given our pretty solid basketball tradition, top tier conference and up tempo style, folks wonder why we cannot recruit a little bit better from an athleticism standpoint. That combined with low turnovers, high basketball IQ and team concept would be quite the synergy.

 

[Hawk_4shur]

You make some good points that I agree with, especially bolded. However, I think given our pretty solid basketball tradition, top tier conference and up tempo style, folks wonder why we cannot recruit a little bit better from an athleticism standpoint. That combined with low turnovers, high basketball IQ and team concept would be quite the synergy.

I wonder the same thing.

Here's the thing IMO. Half the team is going to come from inside 200 miles or so. You may pick one up because their father went to Iowa (or something like that). The rest are kids that have decided to "leave home" and have no connection to Iowa.

At this point, Iowa is competing against everyone, and it gets really tough.

But, you would like to think the Hawks could snag one every once in a while.

 

[youcantguardme]

In case you didn't notice we have a 3/4 that can play tight end. Moss seems fairly athletic. Jordan has a quick release...well that's not always a good thing.

 

[dawgs_04]

Tight end requires the ability to catch a ball. Not a strong suit of Wagner (assuming that's your TE)

 

[EduNeerHawk]

Welp, time to close up shop guys. No need to try and compete with Frank Martin's magical defensive and recruiting prowess of 1 tournament bid and 3 four stars in 5 years.

I know we've all seen what a powerhouse LSU has become in the past decade after making the final four and Carolina looks primed to join that illustrious group.

In other news, I saw a blind squirrel find a nut today. What an inspiration.

Yep assassin.....

The bigger question for me, would Frank Martin be able to recruit the same type of players (student athletes?) I've seen him recruit at Cincy under Bob Huggins or at KSU or now at South Carolina if he was the head coach at the University of Iowa?? I don't doubt that Frank knows how to coach basketball and certainly with the talent he's been able to recruit at the places he's been. And like I said, good for Frank but would he be able to get the kind of talent to Iowa I've seen him coach as an assistant or as a head coach? Could he be as successful as a coach with a point guard like JBo, senior like Peter (defensively?) or a roster as inexperienced like Fran had to coach this year?

Be curious to find out?

I think there are solid reasons about why I've never seen the kind of rosters and talent in pretty much the history of Iowa BB (maybe under George Raveling to Dr. Tom) that I've seen at the places Frank has coached at with Bob Huggins and w/o. Just saying......why I wonder? Maybe Frank could recruit those type of players to Iowa?

 

[Ladell-hawk]

First off I am not your dude! Second, South Carolina has very little basketball history and their program was worse than a "dumpster fire" when Frank Martin took over- since 1998 they had two NCAA Tournament appearance before this year.

South Carolina is located in a much better recruiting region than the Hawks.

 

[terrehawk]

I agree with your experience comment; however, I see the common denominator among the four teams is they all play good to great defense. They have rim protectors and athletic guards that can guard the perimeter and chase and harass outside shooter off of the 3 point line. As Frank Martin to the SI Kids reporter, defense starts with attitude. Iowa lacks the attitude to play defense. According to Martin, if the players has the attitude to play defense then they can learn how to play defense. Martin took KSU to the Elite Eight and now South Carolina to the Final Four.

I do think frans program somehow emphasizes O much more prominently than D.

I will say it again. I hope he either replaces or one of the ACs leave on their own and fran goes out and gets one of bob Huggins assistants or someone knowm as a D guru. Change is needed there.

*ducks*