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Current state of Iowa wrestling

HocDawk

HocDawk

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Dec 12, 2003
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I'm a casual wrestling fan who REALLY enjoys watching Iowa dominate but has zero interest in watching them lose. I'm as fair weather as they come. Maybe I like the winning more than the wrestling?? I check out the wrestling board about once a month to see if something major has happened. It looks like we've got some big time recruits for the future and have lost a few recently as well.

For the fair weather fan, what's the current state of Iowa Hawkeye wrestling? What would you guess we will be ranked at the end of the year this next year? What would you say is the outlook for the next 2 years? What's the temperature of Brands' seat? What's the biggest strength and most glaring weakness of the program right now? Besides other programs improving, what is hurting the program the most? What's your solution?

Any info would be appreciated. Perhaps this is my first step in becoming a bigger fan of the program...
 
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HocDawk said:
I'm a casual wrestling fan who REALLY enjoys watching Iowa dominate but has zero interest in watching them lose. I'm as fair weather as they come. Maybe I like the winning more than the wrestling?? I check out the wrestling board about once a month to see if something major has happened. It looks like we've got some big time recruits for the future and have lost a few recently as well.

For the fair weather fan, what's the current state of Iowa Hawkeye wrestling? What would you guess we will be ranked at the end of the year this next year? What would you say is the outlook for the next 2 years? What's the temperature of Brands' seat? What's the biggest strength and most glaring weakness of the program right now? Besides other programs improving, what is hurting the program the most? What's your solution?

Any info would be appreciated. Perhaps this is my first step in becoming a bigger fan of the program...
Click to expand...

Iowa is a notch below PSU like everyone else. The recruiting has me excited so hang in there. Can't wait to see Kem Dog and the Bull.
 
I would like to see Iowa fire Tom Brands and bring on J Robinson with a 10 year ironclad contract. TIA


That's a tip of the cap to those few who thought Brands should be fired this time last year. Not seeing too many of those posts recently...
 
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For the fair weather fan, what's the current state of Iowa Hawkeye wrestling?
Current state of Iowa wrestling is positive. We have a great group of Seniors this year to lead this team. I see at least 3 NCAA finalists this year AND a very positive outlook for the future with some true hammers coming into the room.

What would you guess we will be ranked at the end of the year this next year?
It all depends on one weekend in March so anything can happen. I'm guessing 1-3.

What would you say is the outlook for the next 2 years?
The next couple of years Iowa is going to have to replace a lot of experienced starters, but we have the guys to do it. I'm guessing it'll be a little rocky at first but we'll be just fine.

What's the temperature of Brands' seat?
72 and sunny. He's in a good spot

What's the biggest strength and most glaring weakness of the program right now?
Strength = Coaching staff is hitting their stride in recruiting, solid room to train in, Olympians and World team members in the room everyday
Weakness = Need to land a couple upper weights in recruiting, HWC needs to add depth (Dennis and Metcalf are fantastic but aging, McDonough has been injured, Dardanes brother don't do anything for me, Bobby and Evans have a ways to go)
 
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The team is "down". That's because they're not #1. They're a top 5 team that has a couple championship level athletes surrounded by likely all Americans. Sounds like a recipe for success, but there are a few teams that are actually better in psu, tosu and ok st.

With that said, the landscape is changing with more teams contending for top 5 status, so iowa has to try even harder. There still seems to be a "world vs iowa" mentality out there even though PSU has taken over as the it team. Up and coming teams like VT, NC ST, Cornell and ASU are attracting top recruits and the state of Iowa HS wrestling (which is also down) are attributing to an open landscape.

Brands was never on the hot seat except for the mouth-breathers who only pay attention in March. There were some that questioned whether he pushed them too hard or didn't recruit the best, but Brands is the best man for this job. He's also very misunderstood outside the program.

With all that said, the future is bright, and we are on the right track. The recruiting is getting there. Yes, we lost some studs, ironically we actually have better prospects coming that caused the departures. We've basically locked down 57kg for the next few cycles going from Ramos to Dennis to Gilman to Lee. Some of that is obviously prospective but highly likely.

It'll more than likely be 2020 before we win the title, but we'll contend. After that, we will be tough to beat, especially if we get a couple of guys we are hoping for now that some money is available.
 
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We made some strategic errors that relinquished our dominance, have kept us from winning a title in 6 years, and are finally being addressed but will take 3 more years to come to fruition.

What we've (hopefully) learned: it's hard to score 100 points without multiple champs, it's hard to have multiple champs without the very best recruits, and it's hard to get the very best recruits for 25% scholarships and reliance on the Iowa mystique.

The actual coaching has always been and continues to be strong, both at the NCAA and freestyle levels.

We have to return the focus to winning titles, both individual and team...not top 3, not top 5, not most loyal fan base.TnT were hired to win titles. Hard stop.
 
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Those last 3 posts are a very realistic evaluation of the Iowa program. Playing catchup to PSU, tOSU and OSU in recruiting right now. Coaches have modified their recruiting philosophy to adapt. It will take time for things to even out and Iowa must continue to average 1-2 top 10 per recruiting cycle. This year Iowa is one of four teams that can win it all.
 
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Sometimes you are good, sometimes you are lucky. Better to get one Spencer than recruit 10 potential Dan Dennis's. You might get one DD but most likely not.

IMO, Iowa got lucky in Brands first years in terms of the type of guys they got and even who they inherited and how they fit into the big picture. Sure, Brands is a great coach and a big reason why we won three but we missed on a lot of recruits that were top 50 but not elite. The past five years has had Hawk fans waiting for a Hail Mary come tournament time.

But TnT have evolved and we are about to see the inverse in the coming years...it's better to be good than lucky. Instead of having two or three contenders, we will have six or seven with the remaining being development into potential AA's. Can a guy like Happel or Young make the leap to the next level?

I like where we are headed and I don't think M* is done this cycle.
 
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TarpHawk said:
We made some strategic errors that relinquished our dominance, have kept us from winning a title in 6 years, and are finally being addressed but will take 3 more years to come to fruition./QUOTE]

Please expand on this. I think it would make a good discussion. Thanks
Click to expand...
 
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While recruiting appears to be on an upswing, the other key ingredient is to develop the athletes so they peak mentally and physically at tournament time. Iowa has not accomplished this the past few years. Hawk wrestlers have been beaten by competitors in which they were favored to beat...typically based on past wins over these same competitors. I don't know what it takes to accomplish this feat but other coaches have figured it out, at least on occasion when it matters most.
 
hawkster03 said:
Gable was a great coach but let's not forget he was getting the cream of the crop as well.
Click to expand...
He didn't get all the cream. I believe there were many years his recruiting classes wouldn't have been rated that highly, but he always seemed to bring in recruits who would surprise later on.
 
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AFHawk86 said:
While recruiting appears to be on an upswing, the other key ingredient is to develop the athletes so they peak mentally and physically at tournament time. Iowa has not accomplished this the past few years. Hawk wrestlers have been beaten by competitors in which they were favored to beat...typically based on past wins over these same competitors. I don't know what it takes to accomplish this feat but other coaches have figured it out, at least on occasion when it matters most.
Click to expand...
While many have harped on strength and conditioning as the cause a few years ago, I have always felt that weight cutting philosophy had a healthy hand in what you describe. I believe McD, DSJ, Evans, etc suffered (and the team with it) due to holding weight a year too long. I know some took injuries, but if they had gone up a weight and added more muscle, would the injuries have occurred?

Just my opinion from the outside looking in.
 
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hawkster03 said:
Gable was a great coach but let's not forget he was getting the cream of the crop as well.
Click to expand...

Sometimes, you bet, he had star recruits to work with and other times he was successful in taking someone that did not have a blue chip HS pedigree and turning him into a super solid contributor and even a national championship level wrestler. But, things have changed and I personally do not think that "formula" is likely to beat out the other top level programs year in and year out.

IMO, you HAVE to have 4-5 finalist capable wrestlers in your lineup and count on at least a couple of them to win NC's. Then a couple more AA level guys to with the core studs. It seems like it is common to have one or two "hole" weights each year, even for the best team(s). But you need championship points or else. I definitely see Iowa as having adapted to that reality with the successful recruitment of several of the higher profile HS wrestlers in the last couple of years.
 
AFHawk86 said:
While recruiting appears to be on an upswing, the other key ingredient is to develop the athletes so they peak mentally and physically at tournament time. Iowa has not accomplished this the past few years. Hawk wrestlers have been beaten by competitors in which they were favored to beat...typically based on past wins over these same competitors. I don't know what it takes to accomplish this feat but other coaches have figured it out, at least on occasion when it matters most.
Click to expand...

This might've been true a couple of years ago, but this wasn't really the case this past season. The only one who under-performed imo, was Brooks and he was a period away from being a semi-finalist. Meyer lost to a few people who he shouldn't have, but also upset several who he was the underdog against. Everyone else basically finished at seed.
 
I always hear that Gable didn't always get the blue chip guys. How were "blue chippers" really determined in his day? Were there national high school rankings like there are today? Was a guy like Barry Davis a blue chip recruit that everyone was after, or did he end up at Iowa because he grew up 20 miles away?

Now we have tons of tournaments for top HS kids, summer freestyle etc. There are very few kids that come out of nowhere to be studs.
 
YoungGun07 said:
I always hear that Gable didn't always get the blue chip guys. How were "blue chippers" really determined in his day? Were there national high school rankings like there are today? Was a guy like Barry Davis a blue chip recruit that everyone was after, or did he end up at Iowa because he grew up 20 miles away?

Now we have tons of tournaments for top HS kids, summer freestyle etc. There are very few kids that come out of nowhere to be studs.
Click to expand...
Yeah it is very remarkable how things have changed. One almost has to give up other sports to become a stud in one.
 
Is_there_vodka_in_heaven said:
This might've been true a couple of years ago, but this wasn't really the case this past season. The only one who under-performed imo, was Brooks and he was a period away from being a semi-finalist. Meyer lost to a few people who he shouldn't have, but also upset several who he was the underdog against. Everyone else basically finished at seed.
Click to expand...
Hawks need to dominate all season and finish on top of the podium (by not losing to wrestlers they should beat) or they need to peak at the right time to over perform (similar to the freshman from tOSU). There is no other way to win a team NC the way the points are allocated.
 
AFHawk86 said:
Hawks need to dominate all season and finish on top of the podium (by not losing to wrestlers they should beat) or they need to peak at the right time to over perform (similar to the freshman from tOSU). There is no other way to win a team NC the way the points are allocated.
Click to expand...

I agree, but you're making the claim that the Hawks unperformed at nationals last year, which I disagree with. Gilman, Clark, Sorenson, Burak, Meyer all performed about as expected. Brooks slightly below, but was a period away from being a semi-finalist. If they were going to win a NC last season, they would have had to heavily over-performed and had a healthy Stoll.
 
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All just my opinion of course..

For the fair weather fan, what's the current state of Iowa Hawkeye wrestling?
The current state of Hawkeye wrestling is recruiting is a step below PSU, tOSU, and OSU. But the wrestling is really only a step below PSU. But they are trending upward, and fast. As early as next season 2017 we could realistically see an NCAA title. We have 3 very strong favorites to repeat finals appearances. With pretty good odds at having two champs (125, 133). Gilman is a bonus point machine so he will have a lot of those. Very strong supporting cast, with 5 other potential AAs (Kemerer, Marinelli, Meyer, Brooks, Stoll). Maybe unlikely to get all 8 AAs, but very strong core of 8 if you ask me. Probably won't win in 2018, but starting 2019, back to being serious contenders.
What would you guess we will be ranked at the end of the year this next year?
1-3 most likely. I'm guessing 1st.
What would you say is the outlook for the next 2 years?
Very good. 2018 may be a little down as far as contending for a title, unless numerous true freshman start, which I personally don't want to happen. Hoping to load up for a big run starting in 2019, injecting Spencer Lee, Gavin Teasdale, and then hopefully Brady Berge and Jacob Warner into the lineup alongside Kemerer, Marinelli, Stoll, Young.
What's the temperature of Brands' seat?
68 degrees, he's sitting pretty at room temperature. Landing big time recruits, and we'll see how they affect our ability to win team titles again.
What's the biggest strength and most glaring weakness of the program right now?
Biggest strength would be the recent change in recruiting philosophy. Before it seemed as if Iowa never landed a top 10 recruit. Which was kind of true, I think Evans and Metcalf were Brands only top 10 recruits. Then in the 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018 class he lands a top 10 in each class. Including the #1 overall p4p wrestler. With a high likelihood of adding 1-2 more top 10 recruits in the class of 2017. Brands used to make his living on the 11-100+ ranked wrestlers, now going after the cream of the crop for multiple individual champs.

Biggest weakness i'd say is not enough bonus from our top guys. Gilman does great, but Clark and Sorensen don't bonus much. Clark seems to always win by 7, and Sorensen just wins. Which is fine, but when Jason Nolf and Zain Retherford are teching and pinning everybody through the semis, then they naturally pull ahead just a little bit. So we either need to make up that deficit by having more all americans than them with higher placings, or match them in bonus points.
Besides other programs improving, what is hurting the program the most?
Not sure how to answer this, but mainly it was not landing the top dawg recruits, which we seem to be doing now.
What's your solution?
Keep on the current upward trajectory, and don't get complacent on recruiting, keep doing after the big guns, national champs. It only takes 5 studs to win a team title.
 
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Is_there_vodka_in_heaven said:
I agree, but you're making the claim that the Hawks unperformed at nationals last year, which I disagree with. Gilman, Clark, Sorenson, Burak, Meyer all performed about as expected. Brooks slightly below, but was a period away from being a semi-finalist. If they were going to win a NC last season, they would have had to heavily over-performed and had a healthy Stoll.
Click to expand...

Total outsider here, but a lot may boil down to the recruitment and development of the upper weights because some of the other top squads are showing some good balance. I think this is a list of when Iowa last had finalists at the upper weights - fact checks welcome. I *think* both OSUs and PSU have had more recent finalists in at least 4 of the weights....

165: 2008
174: 2010
184: pre-2003??
197: 2004
285: 2003
 
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PSU Mike said:
Total outsider here, but a lot may boil down to the recruitment and development of the upper weights because some of the other top squads are showing some good balance. I think this is a list of when Iowa last had finalists at the upper weights - fact checks welcome. I *think* both OSUs and PSU have had more recent finalists in at least 4 of the weights....

165: 2008
174: 2010
184: pre-2003??
197: 2004
285: 2003
Click to expand...
In regard to this observation, early on it was a major mistake by Brands to not have an upper weight coach, and I think he paid the price for that.
 
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Is_there_vodka_in_heaven said:
This might've been true a couple of years ago, but this wasn't really the case this past season. The only one who under-performed imo, was Brooks and he was a period away from being a semi-finalist. Meyer lost to a few people who he shouldn't have, but also upset several who he was the underdog against. Everyone else basically finished at seed.
Click to expand...
Brooks was a bad call away. He had an obvious td not called.
 
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There is no doubt that the "highest production" focus has been at the lower weights. Still, Iowa has done a very good job at producing AA's at the upper weights and has shown incredible development and adaptation. Moves like Beatty to 197 stand out. Berhow has definitely seemed to be huge developing the 285's, but Iowa is going to have a hard time in the 165-197 range simply because their main competition(PSU, Cornell, Minnesota and even tOSU) have a very strong history and upper weight coaching presence. This doesn't even take into account Nebraska with Burroughs, M. Perry at Illinois, C. Perry now coaching at OkState and Howe now at Northwestern. All of these guys are very appealing to a top 5 recruit in that weight range.

Morningstar landing Marinelli should help and let's see if Evans coming back can help "break the seal" and land a high end recruit in the 174-197 range!
 
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Pennstate1985 said:
I believe McD, DSJ, Evans, etc suffered (and the team with it) due to holding weight a year too long. I know some took injuries, but if they had gone up a weight and added more muscle, would the injuries have occurred?

Just my opinion from the outside looking in.
Click to expand...

That might've been the case with McD and DSJ, but Evans was not a big 174lber. Probably the smallest out of Brown, Storley, and Kokesh. Evans wrestled at 165 for awhile at Iowa.
 
Is_there_vodka_in_heaven said:
That might've been the case with McD and DSJ, but Evans was not a big 174lber. Probably the smallest out of Brown, Storley, and Kokesh. Evans wrestled at 165 for awhile at Iowa.
Click to expand...
Agree. I was thinking Evans at 165 when I made the comment that he stayed a year too long there. He just seemed sucked down and lethargic, and nothing like he was in HS as I recall. Didn't you guys have Lofthouse at 174? I just think Evans was better than three 6th place finishes. It happens though.
 
hawkster03 said:
Gable was a great coach but let's not forget he was getting the cream of the crop as well.
Click to expand...

Here's a list of Intermat's top high school wrestlers from 1985-2005 which I've edited to include only those from 1985 to the end of Gable's years. We landed a few but nowhere near what you'de expect. Of the top 16 we landed three; Oklahoma State double our total with six -(edit: OSU actually lander 7 0f the top 16 - I forgot Brinzer).

Cary Kolat (Pennsylvania)
Alan Fried (Ohio)
Joe Williams (Illinois)
Pat Smith (Oklahoma)
Jacob Newby (Oklahoma)
Lincoln McIlravy (South Dakota)
Ty Moore (Pennsylvania)
Dan Knight (Iowa)
Eric Guerrero (California)
Jeff McGinness (Iowa)
Ray Brinzer (Pennsylvania) (Gable did not recruit him)
Adam Mariano (New York)
Mark Smith (Oklahoma)
Stephen Abas (California)
Joey Gilbert (Illinois) (remember Joey? Tom does I'm sure)
Luke Fickell (Ohio)​
 
pablow said:
Here's a list of Intermat's top high school wrestlers from 1985-2005 which I've edited to include only those from 1985 to the end of Gable's years. We landed a few but nowhere near what you'de expect. Of the top 16 we landed three; Oklahoma State double our total with six -(edit: OSU actually lander 7 0f the top 16 - I forgot Brinzer).

Cary Kolat (Pennsylvania)
Alan Fried (Ohio)
Joe Williams (Illinois)
Pat Smith (Oklahoma)
Jacob Newby (Oklahoma)
Lincoln McIlravy (South Dakota)
Ty Moore (Pennsylvania)
Dan Knight (Iowa)
Eric Guerrero (California)
Jeff McGinness (Iowa)
Ray Brinzer (Pennsylvania) (Gable did not recruit him)
Adam Mariano (New York)
Mark Smith (Oklahoma)
Stephen Abas (California)
Joey Gilbert (Illinois) (remember Joey? Tom does I'm sure)
Luke Fickell (Ohio)​
Click to expand...
Neither Tom nor Terry on the list. Tom beat 2 of those guys.
 
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Pennstate1985 said:
Agree. I was thinking Evans at 165 when I made the comment that he stayed a year too long there. He just seemed sucked down and lethargic, and nothing like he was in HS as I recall. Didn't you guys have Lofthouse at 174? I just think Evans was better than three 6th place finishes. It happens though.
Click to expand...

He really wasn't. That said he clearly stuck Perry.
 
I believe Gable had about 1 top ranked recruiting class so not sure about that point.
 
Was Tom Brands' class of Metcalf, Borschel, Slaton, LeClere, etc.. ranked #1? Did he have any other #1 classes besides 2010 class and 2012 class? I think Iowa will have #1 class of 2017. Spencer Lee by himself is worthy of a #1 recruiting class ranking :cool: Potential 4 time World champ before he even starts classes at Iowa. 3x JR and 1x Cadet, and he'd be eligible for one more year of Juniors. I'm 100% confident he will win this summer, nobody has touched him at 50 KG internationally for the last 2 years. Not the slightest hint of a challenge at worlds. When he goes 55 KG for his final two years we will see, I predict he does quite well for himself.

Oh yeah, back to recruiting, sorry got off on a Spencer tangent. You'd have to think that if Berge & Warner are landed that its a no brainer #1 class.
 
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