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Debate Winners and Losers as scored by TheHill

I don't see how you can be a winner if you don't make the big stage. Does anybody even watch that?
 
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I don't see how you can be a winner if you don't make the big stage. Does anybody even watch that?
Agree!!!!!:p
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I don't see how you can be a winner if you don't make the big stage. Does anybody even watch that?


I watched the first and thought Christie did very well. I liked John K. but last night looked like a disaster for him.

Rand Paul shut Trump up by pointing out China wasn't part of TPP. Seriously no retort by Trump at all.
 
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From the NYTimes:

There was no runaway winner of the fourth Republican presidential debate on Tuesday night, according to commentators, journalists and pundits who watched. Senator Ted Cruz of Texas drew some scolding for an “oops” moment when he failed to name five agencies he wanted to eliminate, and Donald J. Trump may be remembered for shushing Carly Fiorina. But unlike after earlier debates this cycle, no consensus emerged about the outcome.

“Carly showed why she should not be counted out yet. She speaks like a caring grandmother, and she has to be the calmest neoconservative I’ve ever seen on a stage speaking about the Middle East. She spoke calmly and coolly on every issue that came her way, and some issues that didn’t.” Joe Cunningham, of Red State

“Epic Loser: John Kasich. Just bad on every front. Epically bad. Looked rude, old, desperate, cheap, and wildly wrong on many fronts.” Glenn Beck, a conservative radio host

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“Here is John Kasich speaking some common sense on immigration reform. Sorry Donald Trump, you aren’t shipping 11 million ANYWHERE.” Roland Martin, host of “NewsOne Now,” a Washington-based television program focused on African-American issues

“Jeb’s done, it’s a matter of time. Carson will decline slowly. Breakout was Rand Paul. Democrats’ll love Kasich and misread his chances.” Charles C. W. Cooke, of National Review

“Statesmanlike Trump is boring. Bring back Insult Comic Trump.” Molly Ball of The Atlantic

“Why do these candidates fight so hard for time for their canned closing statements? We get it. They can memorize.” Michelle Malkin, a conservative blogger and commentator

Senator Marco Rubio of Florida “impressed me tonight — he can relate policy to people in a way I was unsure he could. That’s big.” Shoshana Weissmann of The Weekly Standard

“Kasich killing it. Paul strong. Jeb Bush much, much better. Rubio sounds really weak and confused. Cruz pulled a Rick Perry. Funny!” Rick Sanchez, host of an online program, “The Rick Sanchez Show”

“Gov. Bush didn’t make any mistakes, and he did make some very good points, but he didn’t out perform the others, something he needed to do.” — Bill O’Reilly, host of “The O’Reilly Factor”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/11/u...ackage-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
 
Ted Cruz stammered a little while speaking but named his five. Don't know why this is such a big deal.

No, he said "Commerce" twice.

“[My tax plan is] one of the very few plans that abolishes the IRS. But on top of that, today we rolled out a spending plan,” Cruz said. “Five hundred billion dollars in specific cuts, five major agencies that I would eliminate: the IRS, the Department of Commerce, the Department of Energy, uh, the Department of Commerce and HUD, and then 25 specific programs.”

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box...cruz-stumbles-recall-federal-agencies-hed-cut
 
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The Washington Post's take:

The eight top Republican presidential candidates gathered for the fourth debate of the 2016 campaign Tuesday night in Milwaukee. It was a more understated affair than the last GOP debate sponsored by CNBC but still managed to yield some bests and worsts.

Here are my winners and losers from the night that was:

Winners
* Marco Rubio: Rubio's line about welders making more money than philosophy majors will be quoted all over the place in the post-debate analysis. (And, no, it wasn't totally accurate.) Rubio knocked it out of the park when debating military spending and the right role for America in the world with Rand Paul. He got a meatball of a question when asked by the moderators about Hillary Clinton's résumé as compared with his own; he, unsurprisingly, answered it well and easily. Time and time again, he oozed knowledge while appearing entirely relaxed. One nit to pick with Rubio: He can — and did at times Tuesday night — come across as slightly too rehearsed, the student reciting things back to the teacher from memory but without actually understanding what any of it means.

* Ted Cruz: For the second straight debate, the senator from Texas shone under the bright lights. His line about the tax code having more words than the Bible was a good and memorable one. His repeated denunciations of Washington's "crony" culture will leave a lot of Republican heads nodding in agreement. Cruz proved Tuesday night that of the "outsider" candidates, he is the one best equipped to carry their message going forward.

* Ben Carson: In the first three debates, I watched in wonder as Carson's numbers kept moving up after what I perceived to be nearly nonexistent performances. But Carson — from his first answer on Tuesday night — was more energetic (that's a pretty low bar given Carson's past performances) and more dialed in than I had seen him. He was helped by a moderator question on his past exaggerations/inaccuracies regarding his life story that would give the term "softball" a bad name. And by the fact that none of his rivals seemed interested in taking the fight to him on the issue of the inconsistencies of his recounting of the past. Carson was, as usual, very shaky on foreign policy and wasn't much better on regulatory reform. But he did more than enough to keep himself at or near the top of the GOP field.

* Carly Fiorina: Like Cruz and Rubio, Fiorina proved something Tuesday night that we already knew: She's an able debater. She inserted herself into a variety of discussions — foreign policy, taxes — where she left a positive mark. It also helped that the audience in the room in Milwaukee seemed very much on her side. I still think Fiorina, like Rubio, can come across as too rote at times.

* Rand Paul: The senator from Kentucky (finally) found ways to get his voice heard in a debate. The problem for him is that he's almost certainly too far down in polling — and in the money chase — for it to matter much. Still, Paul found a platform to voice his unique views on foreign and fiscal policy, and, at this stage of his candidacy, that amounts to a win.

Losers
* Donald Trump: Trump, as he has in each of the first four debates, stood center stage in Milwaukee on Tuesday night. But for the two-plus hours that the debate ran, Trump felt ancillary to the conversation. When he did get time to speak, he simply repeated his now-familiar lines — we don't win anymore, I have a great company, etc. — and little else. His answers on foreign policy were not good. His random attack on Fiorina — "why does she keep interrupting everybody?" — earned him boos from the crowd (and helped her). Trump just didn't seem all that interested in being there. It likely won't affect his poll numbers, since nothing seems to. But that doesn't change the fact he was off his game.

* John Kasich: The Ohio governor came out with a strategy to install himself right in the center of the debate. To do that, he interrupted, cajoled and pouted his way through it. His positions on immigration and on Wall Street banks won't win him any support from the GOP base (he got booed for his Wall Street answer). But it wasn't really about policy. Kasich seemed peevish, short-tempered and anything but presidential.


* Jeb Bush: Look, the former Florida governor wasn't bad in this debate. In fact, he was far better than the lifeless showing he put in last month. But he wasn't good enough. Jeb's first answer — pledging to repeal all of Obama's executive orders — was forceful and quite good. But as the debate wore on, Bush repeatedly missed chances to jump into conversations — a long back-and-forth involving multiple candidates over taxes jumps to mind — and when he did speak he was somewhat halting and awkward. The Bush people readily acknowledge that debating is not his strong suit. And I readily acknowledge that being a good debater doesn't guarantee victory. But Bush just isn't comfortable on the debate stage — and it shows.

* Anecdotes: Virtually every candidate took a question about broad fiscal policy and turned it into a heartwarming/heart-wrenching tale of "Jim and Aileen Jones from random city in random state." I know candidates and their staffs believe these anecdotes bolster the idea that they are out meeting regular people and not sitting in the halls of Washington — wherever those are — opining on stuff. But the anecdotes come across more often than not as trite and cliched rather than revealing and powerful. Let's just stop doing it! Okay? Good. It's a deal.

* Debate format: The Fox Business moderators went out of their way to make clear that they, unlike the unmentioned but ever-present CNBC moderators, would be sticking to substantive economic issues in the debate. Then they went out of their way to praise themselves for doing so. Fine. But the debate was largely lifeless throughout, and the lack of candidate exchanges — whether because of the rules of the debate or a simple unwillingness to engage — meant that many of the answers offered were straight from oft-repeated talking points. I don't think that serves the voters' interests — at all.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...table-main_winners-losers-12am:homepage/story
 
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No, he said "Commerce" twice.

“[My tax plan is] one of the very few plans that abolishes the IRS. But on top of that, today we rolled out a spending plan,” Cruz said. “Five hundred billion dollars in specific cuts, five major agencies that I would eliminate: the IRS, the Department of Commerce, the Department of Energy, uh, the Department of Commerce and HUD, and then 25 specific programs.”

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box...cruz-stumbles-recall-federal-agencies-hed-cut

He only listed 1. The IRS is the only Agency on that list.
 
No, he said "Commerce" twice.

“[My tax plan is] one of the very few plans that abolishes the IRS. But on top of that, today we rolled out a spending plan,” Cruz said. “Five hundred billion dollars in specific cuts, five major agencies that I would eliminate: the IRS, the Department of Commerce, the Department of Energy, uh, the Department of Commerce and HUD, and then 25 specific programs.”

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box...cruz-stumbles-recall-federal-agencies-hed-cut


My bad. Honest mistake on his part. Still not a big deal.
 
More from WaPo:

1. No one attacked Ben Carson, who comes out as the frontrunner. Carson spoke for only 9 minutes and 22 seconds, less than every other candidate during the two-hour debate. He did not attack anyone, and no one attacked him.

The other candidates on stage calculated that going after the soft-spoken neurosurgeon could backfire, especially if it looked they were doing the bidding of the mainstream media. Ted Cruz, who has the most to gain with Carson’s fall, is trying to make a show of abiding by Ronald Reagan’s 11th Commandment to not speak ill of other Republicans … at least for the time being. And the rest of the social conservatives who see themselves in Carson’s lane were relegated to the undercard debate: Bobby Jindal, Rick Santorum and Mike Huckabee.

Determined not to face the kind of criticism that CNBC got after the last debate, Fox Business moderator Neil Cavuto gently asked Carson not about the spate of stories that raise questions about his truthfulness. Instead, he asked him whether he thinks that coverage has hurt his campaign and to talk about his belief that there is a “double standard in the media … that seems obsessed with inconsistencies and potential exaggerations in your life story, but then looked the other way when it came to then Senator Barack Obama’s.” Cavuto never specified Carson’s alleged embellishments or asked him to engage with them substantively.

“I have no problem with being vetted,” Carson said. “What I do have a problem with is being lied about.”

Weekly Standard executive editor Bill Kristol called it a “weirdly effective tactic”: “He doesn’t criticize anyone, so no one else gets to comment on him, and what he says seems unproblematic.”

Fox News digital politics editor Chris Stirewalt put Carson at the top of his winners list: “He came to the stage with the press and his rivals hot on his heels over alleged fabrications in his biography. His succinct response to that (with an elbow thrown Hillary Clinton’s way over her Benghazi claims) was effective. But it was his new frontrunner status and cloak of favorability that did the trick.”

Nate Silver at FiveThirtyEight notes that Carson received more Google search traffic than any other candidate during the debate, “a factor which has sometimes been a better leading indicator of polling movement than pundits’ takes on who did well, and his performance was composed after a couple of weeks of intense media scrutiny.”


2. Jeb Bush “applied the tourniquet” and stopped the bleeding. It’s unclear if he’s bottomed out.

Al Cardenas, a longtime Bush friend, provided a blunt assessment to my colleague Ed O’Keefe: “Two things happened: He applied the tourniquet and applied it successfully. And number two, he gave the reassurance to the donors, the activists and all the folks involved in the campaign, reassured them that they made the right choice to begin with and re-energized them. This was, in my opinion, the biggest night of the campaign so far.”

“If this was his biggest night, Bush still needs far bigger ones — and soon,” O’Keefe writes in his analysis. “He’s mired in the single digits in national surveys and in Iowa and New Hampshire, where he will travel again this week. Donors have warned of potential fundraising struggles despite recent decisions to trim his campaign budget.”

“This is the confident Jeb Bush supporters have been waiting for, but how many good answers will it take to break the storm clouds?” wondered CNN’s Jeff Zeleny.

Still, he got awkward at times. Ross Douthat offered up a memorable metaphor:

@DouthatNYT)
But Bush manager Danny Diaz noted in the spin room afterward that the performance was good enough to ensure that Bush stays on the main stage for next month’s debate. “We look forward to catching up with all our good friends in Las Vegas,” he said.

3. Marco Rubio got lobbed softballs so soft that he could not help but LAUGH at one of them. Literally! It helped that Jeb chickened out of picking a fight with him after blowing it so badly in Boulder. The critical reviews of the Florida senator’s performance are positive across the board, with some dissenters saying he sounded too canned.

The Fix’s Chris Cillizza: “Rubio knocked it out of the park when debating military spending and the right role for America in the world with Rand Paul. He got a meatball of a question when asked by the moderators about Hillary Clinton’s résumé as compared with his own; he, unsurprisingly, answered it well and easily. Time and time again, he oozed knowledge while appearing entirely relaxed.”

Conservative Post columnist Jennifer Rubin: “Rubio once again had the strongest performance. He shot down Paul’s suggestion that spending on the military makes one ‘liberal’ and repeatedly spoke up in favor of strong U.S. leadership. … Asked about running against an experienced Clinton, he went into his effective riff about representing the future while she represents the past.”

The New York Times’ Jonathan Martin and Patrick Healy: “Rubio was not only able to avoid being drawn into the contentious immigration debate, but also repeatedly received questions that allowed him to answer with versions of his stump speech. Even he seemed unable to believe his good fortune when he was asked to make his case against Clinton. He chuckled for a moment before unspooling a well-rehearsed argument: why he can prosecute a ‘generational’ case against her.”

Watch a Vine of the moment here:

Rubio adviser Todd Harris tweeted at midnight that a major donor the campaign had been chasing for six weeks had just sent a two-word email: “I’m in.”


4. Ted Cruz, who along with Rubio won the last debate, had another great night. He also foreshadowed the very bitter battle to come.

On crony capitalism, Cruz laid the predicate to go after Rubio more explicitly when the field winnows. The Texas senator decried sugar subsidies, but he did not mention that his opponent backs them. The Floridian’s unabashed support for special government handouts that directly boost the bottom line of his own donors at the expense of the free market could become a problematic data point when Cruz eventually sets out to make the case that his Senate rival is a moderate, as he called him last week, or, more credibly, a conservative of convenience.

Thought leaders noticed. For movement conservatives who see the sugar subsidy as the symbol of a backward agriculture policy, including the top editor at National Review, Cruz’s attack was not subtle.

Lowry wrote a column declaring Cruz the clear winner afterward: “Rubio was very good, as well. But I thought Rubio was slightly better than Cruz last time, and that Cruz was slightly better this time. Rubio just felt a little off.”

Kristol said on his magazine’s podcast, “I though Ted Cruz was very strong. He consistently gave substantive answers that were well delivered. … I don’t think Bush saved his campaign.”

“Cruz is showing why so many insiders think he’ll eventually be in the final two or three when the field winnows,” wrote NBC’s Chuck Todd.

It increasingly seems like this could come down to Rubio vs. Cruz. Glenn Beck wrote on Facebook that Rubio and Cruz were the two winners, but he was “leaning a bit” toward Rubio.

Mark Halperin gave all the candidates B’s on his post-debate report card, but Rubio and Cruz got B-plusses. The Bloomberg anchor says Cruz “continued his practice of addressing the TV camera, not the moderators or other candidates, to strong effect. A style and issue emphasis with the potential to broaden his appeal.”




https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ways-from-the-republican-debate/?tid=pm_pop_b
 
5. No one is afraid of Donald Trump any more. The billionaire took far more punches than anyone else. There is not a single candidate, except maybe Cruz, afraid of drawing his ire.

Rupert Murdoch, who owns the entities that sponsored the debate, noted that The Donald seemed to recede from view:

6. John Kasich was the biggest loser.

He got more speaking time than any other candidate, which managed to work against him.

Base voters did not like his attempts to cut in, but they liked his message even less. Frank Luntz said that Kasich “scored the lowest ever” in his New Hampshire focus group, and that “his support of bailouts ‘for people who can afford it’ scored an 8″ of 100. As a point of comparison, Rubio got 88 on the dial test when he called for the repeal of Dodd-Frank. Luntz relayed that people in his focus group were yelling at the screen: “They don’t want Kasich to speak. Why Johnny, why?”

National Review columnist Jonah Goldberg–who called Rubio, Cruz and Carly Fiorina the winners–zeroed in on the Ohio governor: “He’s done. He came across angry, condescending and unprincipled. By the end of the debate he came across as the drunk, obnoxious, uncle everyone wishes hadn’t accepted the invitation to Thanksgiving dinner.”


7. Chris Christie won the undercard debate.

Outgoing Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal came loaded for bear, ready to unspool harsh attacks on Huckabee’s and Christie’s records.

The New Jersey governor excelled by showing that he has the self-discipline to largely ignore attacks on himself and furiously focus on Hillary Clinton instead, the Weekly Standard’s Jonathan Last writes.

David A. Fahrenthold highlights Christie’s hard appeal to law enforcement officers, saying he would take their side in the national debate over police shootings and brutality. “I will have your back,” he said.

8. Mike Huckabee, the other candidate knocked off the main stage to the undercard, was basically a non-factor. His most memorable moment was a joke that sounded like it belonged in another era. When asked about Federal Reserve Chair Janet Yellen, Huckabee responded: “Well, my wife’s name’s Janet. When you say Janet yellin’, I’m very familiar with what you mean.” And Republicans wonder why they lose women by double digits…


9. Rand Paul grabbed for the isolationist mantle, which will probably give him a needed boost with the Ron Paul supporters who have been defecting to Cruz.

According to Facebook, the top social moment of the debate was the Paul exchange with Rubio over defense spending. Twitter said it was the second most talked-about moment. Most Republicans actually agree with the Florida senator’s position, but it nonetheless reminded past supporters of the Kentucky senator why they liked him. Paul has slipped into the single digits, and he’s gotten less and less buzz.

In the past, Paul would vigorously push back on any idea that he’s an isolationist, nervous that it would limit his ability to win over non-libertarian factions of the party. He did not try to do that last night because, right now, he needs his natural base to come home.

“Paul had his best debate tonight,” tweeted The Daily Caller’s Matt Lewis: “Settled on a clear libertarian message — instead of trying to be all things to all people.” Former RNC chair Michael Steele agreed.

Chuck Todd thought Paul’s moment on foreign policy made for his best 15 minutes of all four debates. “He was being who he is without coming across angry or annoyed,” tweeted the moderator of NBC’s “Meet the Press.” “Paul easily had his best debate night of campaign.”

10. The moderators did not become the story, which made the RNC very happy, but they also let the candidates off easy at several key junctures.

Fox Business host Neil Cavuto ended the debate by taking a rhetorical victory lap around his competitors at CNBC: “Business issues can be riveting because it wasn’t about us.”

Conservative pundits approved of the moderators, which takes some of the pressure off RNC Chairman Reince Priebus ahead of the next debate, which will be sponsored by CNN:
 
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Ted Cruz stammered a little while speaking but named his five. Don't know why this is such a big deal.
It's only a big deal to libs who see him as a threat and want to shoot him down. Go to his web site. You may not agree with his positions but it's hard to argue that he does have detailed plans
 
It's only a big deal to libs who see him as a threat and want to shoot him down. Go to his web site. You may not agree with his positions but it's hard to argue that he does have detailed plans


I'm in agreement with anybody that wants to dismantle the IRS.
 
Pretty good column on the state of the race at this point in the cycle:

The bloom is coming off the rose for the Republican presidential debates.

Now that could simply be me and my incredibly disenchanted view of this particular field of folly, but I don’t think so.

Much of the initial interest was in the mystifying appeal among Republican voters for the raucous real estate developer whose opening campaign salvo was an appeal to American xenophobia and a penchant for making unkeepable pledges completely divorced from reality and practicality.

The race had a charlatan as showman who attracted the attention like a train wreck: a disaster from which many were unable to look away.

Then came the rise of two other outsiders: the catatonic Ben Carson and the robotic Carly Fiorina.

Carson was the more compelling of the two, because he got more traction and his path to politics is even more unlikely.


He was a poor, and, he says, violent child — he writes of trying to stab a friend and going after his mother with a hammer — who turned his life around, became an acclaimed neurosurgeon and has peddled the story for profit ever since.

The story is fascinating, if true — though some of it is clouded by questions. The most recent examination, by The Daily Mail, calls the hammer anecdote into question.

The other spectacle to behold was to watch the Bush dynasty crash and burn because of Jeb(!)’s utter inability to give that exclamation point meaning and his inability to connect. So the establishment interest has slowly turned to his feisty, if hollow, young protégé Marco Rubio, who always strikes me as too slick by half and is apparently in desperate need of a personal accountant.

These debates are no longer about winning the nomination, but about avoiding doing something that would make you lose it.

Thus, we are treated to a rehash of the same tired talking points. Even the novelty has worn off. The candidates take few chances and offer few new nuggets.

Take all the other people with governor or senator on their résumés who thought that experience would mean something, but are gradually coming to realize that this is simply not their cycle.

John Kasich is growing ever more irascible the longer he stays in this senseless race. Rand Paul continues to sound like he’s phoning it in. Ted Cruz can’t translate his fire-starter reputation into barnburner enthusiasm.

In the undercard debate, Chris Christie continued his implicit anti-Black Lives Matter shtick by claiming that Democrats don’t support the police, Rick Santorum keeps trying to remind people that he did well last time, and Bobby Jindal… why is Bobby Jindal still in this race?

These debates have simply become an exercise in performance rather than policy review. We are watching to see who avoids the gaffe, who gets the applause, who attacks well and defends well against attacks.

This is all theater, an audition to see who would look less ridiculous standing opposite the eventual Democratic nominee.

Who will be able to offer a common-sense rebuttal on how to deal with millions of undocumented immigrants in this country? Who will articulate a strong national defense policy and antiterrorism strategy that isn’t too trigger-happy and war-obsessed? Who has a plan for tax and economic policies from which the most Americans would benefit? Who has the best plan to deal with culturally destructive social policies — like mass incarceration and the war on drugs — that are leaving more and more Americans disillusioned.

As it stands, the more articulate and electable voices among the Republican lot have failed to break into the upper ranks. Instead, the leaders continue to be men who have no experience in elected office and who no reasonable centrist voter — the ones who actually decide presidential elections — could ever conceive of in the Oval Office with access to nuclear codes.

It’s by no means clear to me that these two men even want to be president. But this increased exposure virtually guarantees increased book advances and speaking fees, and in the case of the real estate developer and maker of shiny ties, more sales.

These two guys stand to make out like bandits, while leaving the Republican Party’s presidential prospects in shambles.

Indeed, the whole Republican debate process is a parade of improbability. Every debate only bolsters Democratic optimism. As the time ticks down, Republicans continue to flirt with the idea of nominating someone who is wholly unelectable, thereby gifting to Democrats an election that many thought would be exceedingly hard to win.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/12/opinion/campaign-stops/gop-debate-doldrums.html?ref=opinion
 
I was going to wait to give my inexact opinion of the debate until the fact checkers had time to account for all the fallacies, but by the looks of it... it's going to take a few more days to list them all.

This group of candidates must think the folks who vote in the GOP primaries are the stupidest people in the world. I guess they think if they can say something with a straight face, it must be true. Fiorina is the worst. She is followed closely by Trump, Carson, and Rubio.

The biggest plus for Marco is that he excels in a debate setting. Very smooth, for the most part. But I think Cruz just may knock him down some. Cruz's looks like the perfect storm for the Dems. He is so far right. Good to get the nomination, bad news for the general.

HRC just needs to wait for the implosion to complete itself and then put the final nail in the GOP coffin.
 
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