Did we swing & miss on Fleming and Hutton or were they just impatient?

[Franisdaman]

Obviously both want to play and they weren't.

Do you think these 2 were recruiting "misses" or do you think that they would have developed at Iowa if they had been patient?

Everybody says Fran is a great evaluator on talent. Do you still think this way when it comes to these 2 players?

Just curious on people's thoughts. I think it's a combo of both; Fleming does not play D and Hutton had to develop his offensive game and both were probably not going to see much playing time next year.

 

[skydog0784]

The innuendo (and I'm definitely not in the know) is that Hutton didn't take care of business academically.

Fleming was a swing and miss IMO.

No big deal, move on to the next.

 

[StormHawk42]

Part of the CBB culture we live in. There's something like 700+ transfers this year. So for every 5 dudes you bring in, you can pretty much guarantee one will leave.

 

[Hawk68]

I believe they were both misses and you can add Ellingson to the list.

 

[LuteHawk]

No college basketball coach bats 100% on recruitment.
Iowa has had its share of hits and misses in this department.
Some players have problems with drugs and alcohol. Others
have academic problems. Yet the majority who leave after
their freshman year will be the ones who had problems making
the adjustment from high school to college basketball.

Hutton and Fleming are now history and Coach Fran and the
Hawkeyes move on. We remember Matt Gatens,, Dev
Marble, Aaron White who were recruited as freshman and
graduated as seniors.

 

[hansenhawk]

I still think Fleming had some talent, had a bit of a swagger to him that I liked. Too bad Fran couldn't tap into that.

Watch him go blow up somewhere now.

 

[larrygreenwallswildride]

Sometimes the ego plays basketball better than the body it's attached to does.

 

[Franisdaman]

I believe they were both misses and you can add Ellingson to the list.

too much striking out in my opinion....when do we hit the home run?

 

[kzoohawk80]

What are we like 2 weeks done with the season and I'm already sick of these threads. Is the OP really that confused about how transferring works in college basketball? I got I thought for people on here. What if Moss is that good. What if he's taking all the minutes at the 2. Why think positive about a 4 star redshirt freshman when you can try and complain about Fran.

 

[Franisdaman]

I still think Fleming had some talent, had a bit of a swagger to him that I liked. Too bad Fran couldn't tap into that.

Watch him go blow up somewhere now.

i think the problem was he didn't play D and Fran did not trust him to keep his guy in front of him

its crazy because Ellingson lost playing time and Williams, not Fleming, started seeing game action as a result; it just seemed everybody was passing Fleming by (the shooting guard rotation ended up being Sapp, Jok, Williams, Ellingson)

 

[Franisdaman]

What are we like 2 weeks done with the season and I'm already sick of these threads. Is the OP really that confused about how transferring works in college basketball? I got I thought for people on here. What if Moss is that good. What if he's taking all the minutes at the 2. Why think positive about a 4 star redshirt freshman when you can try and complain about Fran.

if you don't like a topic, ignore it; is it that hard of a concept for you?

 

[RocknRollface]

A little of both, they had potential to be contributing role players as upperclassmen, especially Hutton for defense, but they were both obviously a couple years away and didn't want to wait.

Its likely the coaches may have nudged them in the transfer direction realizing they could likely upgrade in a year.

The Hutton one makes allot less sense though because he still could have developed for a couple years and had 2 or 3 good ones.

 

[iowalawhawk]

Fleming came off very impatient in the interview after he left.

 

[HoustonHawkeye]

Many different reasons for players leaving. In football, players come in thinking there is a 70% chance they will redshirt, get stronger, and wait their turn. In basketball, players think they will come in an make an impact right away 70% of the time.

 

[The Sleeping Dog]

Think Fleming is a big loss. The kid was impatient. Might be an attitude/coachability problem.

 

[thewop]

I think it was too soon to tell with both. It would be very difficult for a guy like Fleming to come from the best "high school" team in the country, be a stud and come in and do nothing. I wish they'd have both given it a little more time. Who knows, maybe Fran nudged them along...

 

[trail888]

I am sure Fran realized he was not going to improve with talent of that level.

 

[Dirk_Diggler]

Fleming had the ability, just impatient and should have stayed the course. Remember, he was a high-major recruit and we were dancing a year ago when he committed. He was a 4-star kid, Mr. Basketball in his class and good enough to play at an academy school his senior season.
Hutton--not sure. I think he was a guy that could have developed into a solid role player which every team needs. Seemed to be very athletic, but not polished.

 

[crHawkeye92]

Fleming had the ability, just impatient and should have stayed the course. Remember, he was a high-major recruit and we were dancing a year ago when he committed. He was a 4-star kid, Mr. Basketball in his class and good enough to play at an academy school his senior season.
Hutton--not sure. I think he was a guy that could have developed into a solid role player which every team needs. Seemed to be very athletic, but not polished.

What recruiting service had Fleming as a 4 star? I thought he was a 3 star by most services.

 

[like-woahh]

What recruiting service had Fleming as a 4 star? I thought he was a 3 star by most services.

People were all over Fleming but the kid looked awkward and a spaz to me when he got some minutes early in the season. Doesn't mean he couldn't have panned out to be a solid player, but I think this is more of a case of him seeing the writing on the wall then anything else.

I would have been way more bummed out about Moss bailing than Fleming.

 

[HawkLogic]

People were all over Fleming but the kid looked awkward and a spaz to me when he got some minutes early in the season. Doesn't mean he couldn't have panned out to be a solid player, but I think this is more of a case of him seeing the writing on the wall then anything else.

I would have been way more bummed out about Moss bailing than Fleming.

Flemming was clearly slow, never going to cut it defensively. He might have some offensive game, but slow guys get their shots swatted.

 

[goodbyebobby]

People were all over Fleming but the kid looked awkward and a spaz to me when he got some minutes early in the season. Doesn't mean he couldn't have panned out to be a solid player, but I think this is more of a case of him seeing the writing on the wall then anything else.

I would have been way more bummed out about Moss bailing than Fleming.

A spaz who isn't all he thinks and Moss would have been a bigger loss. It should be really interesting to see a kid after a redshirt year.

 

[like-woahh]

Flemming was clearly slow, never going to cut it defensively. He might have some offensive game, but slow guys get their shots swatted.

When he got minutes early in the season he never really showed any offensive game either. I guess he did well in the PTL but that is with no one playing any defense whatsoever.

I think it's weird that some people are getting bent out of shape about a couple transfers when this is really the norm around college basketball. To me, it's more of a sign of these guys understanding that they aren't going to be good enough to compete for minutes than anything else. I'll be interested to see where Hutton and Fleming end up, but generally transfers of this type go the juco route or play at a lower level D1 school.

 

[JerryDennard]

For anyone sad about Fleming or Hutton... Pretend they didn't leave. Draw up your 2 deeps for next year.

Put yourself in Fran's office. You're Andrew, You're Brandon, You talk to coach and ask, "where am I next year?" Look at that 2 deep you just drew up.

 

[Suterman]

Over 700 kids will transfer this year. There are 350 D1 teams so that averages out to 2 kids per team. Iowa has had 2 transfers. They weren't going to play much next year and they want to play next year. They choose to go somewhere else rather than ride the pine. Get used to it.

 

[Ihawkhoops]

Fran is not a rookie coach adjusting to the Big Ten. His obsession with slow of foot white shooting guards who can't make shots is getting old. We heard how Oglesby was the best shooter he ever coached and how he hit 80% from 3 in practice, but it never materialized in games. Then he bring Ellingson in, who by all appearances is an Oglesby clone and to complete the hat trick, he lands Fleming. 100% not realistic, but 0-3 is pretty disappointing.

Until Fran stops offering kids who athletically cannot compete, this carousel of non-contributing players will continue. Yes, transfers happen. No, he will not be 100% on recruits at any position, but IMO, but he continues to miss the bar. When you have a guy as limited offensively as Clemmons has been throughout his career and you can't find a bench guy to give you 6 minutes per half of semi-respectable play, you have almost done the impossible, given how many shooting guards are out there every year as grad transfers, transfers, or juco's. Remind me again why we didn't offer Morgan. 14 ppg and 36 on a big stage hitting clutch shot after clutch shot.

 

[And1Hawk]

This type of transfer is a good thing as it allows the staff to continue to recruit and bring in some additional players that better fit the needs of next year's team. I wish both guys the best of luck.

I am much more worried about Jok returning and keeping Moss in school.

 

[relishingwinning18]

i think the problem was he didn't play D and Fran did not trust him to keep his guy in front of him

its crazy because Ellingson lost playing time and Williams, not Fleming, started seeing game action as a result; it just seemed everybody was passing Fleming by (the shooting guard rotation ended up being Sapp, Jok, Williams, Ellingson)

When they were recruited I don't think either thought they'd be passed by a walk on, or that dale jones would get injured and get another year. Playing time ran away from them. It is what it is.

 

[DavenportHawk8]

Think Fleming is a big loss. The kid was impatient. Might be an attitude/coachability problem.

You see this at a hundred schools every year. A kid who was Mr Basketball of his State as a Junior and top dog at his HS, then transfers to one of the elite schools in the nation. While he wasn't top dog, he was still on a top rated team and there was only 7 players who played, so his minutes were there. I assume he came to Iowa thinking he was going to get playing time. The bad thing is in Div 1 you have to "earn" it.

He came to Iowa where we started 5 upper classmen and returned 8 guys off an NCAA tournament team the previous year. I assume Flemming thought because he was top dog in HS, that he would walk into IC and get his playing time. He was sharpshooter, but his defense was pretty bad. I assume its was because he didn't have much competition in his junior year and then at Oak Hill, I don't think anyone played any defense. They just outscored the other team.

 

[championhawk]

I think Fleming could have been a good player for us if we surrounded him with the right talent. He had good court vision and will be a solid player for someone. People are way too quick to write guys off as freshman. I also hope Moss is the reason both guys are transferring.

 

[Herky T Hawk]

It is too early to say about Fleming. He may go to a mid major and do well at that level.

Hutton, I think, was impatient. We need someone to replace Clemmons's man to man defense ability. I think Hutton could have been that this year for 5-10 minutes per game. He's the kind of guy that would have been pulling in 15-20 minutes in a few years. Possibly more if his offensive game had developed a lot more. Not everyone is going to come in and play 30+ minutes right away unless they can do well at both ends of the floor. That is why i was so happy that he and Moss redshirted this year so that they could work on grades and the holes in their game so that they could start contributing next year.

I'll say this. I think Fleming didn't redshirt because Fran saw his ceiling as being lower than the guys that did. So let him get garbage PT this year and hope that he is happy with minimal minutes over the other three years of his career, or he transfers and opens up a scholly sooner than later. The Hutton transfer is one that I think hurts a lot more because there was enough promise there to be willing to spend 5 years on him. Much like how we all would love to have seen what would have happened if Gabe took a redshirt in his first year.

 

[DodgerHawki]

Fran is not a rookie coach adjusting to the Big Ten. His obsession with slow of foot white shooting guards who can't make shots is getting old. We heard how Oglesby was the best shooter he ever coached and how he hit 80% from 3 in practice, but it never materialized in games. Then he bring Ellingson in, who by all appearances is an Oglesby clone and to complete the hat trick, he lands Fleming. 100% not realistic, but 0-3 should is pretty disappointing.

Until Fran stops offering kids who athletically cannot compete, this carousel of non-contributing players will continue. Yes, transfers happen. No, he will not be 100% on recruits at any position, but IMO, but he continues to miss the bar. When you have a guy as limited offensively as Clemmons has been throughout his career and you can't find a bench guy to give you 6 minutes per half of semi-respectable play, you have almost done the impossible, given how many shooting guards are out there every year as grad transfers, transfers, or juco's. Remind me again why we didn't offer Morgan. 14 ppg and 36 on a big stage hitting clutch shot after clutch shot.

Morgan was in the same class as Jok I think. Fran had signed Jok, and the Uthoff became available and he needed a scholarship for the year after he had to pay his own way. In most any other year, Morgan would have been a no-brainer. I believe Iowa wanted Morgan to go to prep school so they could get him the next year, but Morgan said no thanks (don't blame him). I could be wrong on the above.

I don't think Fran has an "obsession." Oglesby was understandable, he was a Top 150 player in-state at a time where Fran could use any warm bodies coming out of the wreckage of Lickliter. The other 2 were likely a result of Fran not getting his first choices on the recruiting trail. I would agree that going forward Fran needs to get guys who have a more diverse skill set than catch and shoot.

 

[DenverTurtle]

For anyone sad about Fleming or Hutton... Pretend they didn't leave. Draw up your 2 deeps for next year.

Put yourself in Fran's office. You're Andrew, You're Brandon, You talk to coach and ask, "where am I next year?" Look at that 2 deep you just drew up.

Good point. That said I had Hutton as a guy that could play 2-4, giving a spark off he bench and being a huge disruption in D. Given Hutton's athleticism and reports that he had a 6'11" wingspan to go with Christian Williams' 7' wingspan had me salivating thinking about those 2 at the top of our 3/4 court press and our weird zone we play

 

[gilligan19]

too much striking out in my opinion....when do we hit the home run?

already have remember White, incoming Cook #10 PF and 47 overall by ESPN, as for striking or missing on these to, its to early to say,

Fleming can go to another D1 school RS and have 3 years to play, to me he made a mistake by going to Oak Hill Academy, not enough structure way to much ME ME on that team.

there was talk about 1 or 2 players not putting the effort in practice, maybe this was the case with Huton as he didn't want to RS but wanted to play then there was the talk of grades being a issue, who knows,

but any time a kid picks IA over anybody else is a hit, just because they don't produce like you or anybody else, they suddenly become a failure and didn't belong in a IA uniform.

 

[DenverTurtle]

You see this at a hundred schools every year. A kid who was Mr Basketball of his State as a Junior and top dog at his HS, then transfers to one of the elite schools in the nation. While he wasn't top dog, he was still on a top rated team and there was only 7 players who played, so his minutes were there. I assume he came to Iowa thinking he was going to get playing time. The bad thing is in Div 1 you have to "earn" it.

He came to Iowa where we started 5 upper classmen and returned 8 guys off an NCAA tournament team the previous year. I assume Flemming thought because he was top dog in HS, that he would walk into IC and get his playing time. He was sharpshooter, but his defense was pretty bad. I assume its was because he didn't have much competition in his junior year and then at Oak Hill, I don't think anyone played any defense. They just outscored the other team.

I totally agree. We also need to remember that even though Flemming wasn't super athletic by B1G standards in high school he would have been much MUCH more athletic and skilled than 95% of the guys he played against. How many 6'5", well built guys with very good guard skills did any of you play against in high school? MAYBE 1? So he could make up for lack of defensive skill, etc just by being bigger, faster and stronger than his competition. Then in the B1G you have 6'8" guys just as quick and skilled (or better) as 6'2" guards you played against in high school.
Truth is it would have been survival of the fittest, he had a chance to be a starter or significant role player next season. Obviously despite the swagger he isn't that into serious competition.

 

[gilligan19]

Gatens was a slow footed shooting Guard and no he was not the most Athletic or fast, Hoerner was another slow White player that holds the all time assist record with over 600 assist Andre is 2nd with 175 and Gesell is in 3rd.

need I go on?

 

[And1Hawk]

Gatens was a slow footed shooting Guard and no he was not the most Athletic or fast, Hoerner was another slow White player that holds the all time assist record with over 600 assist Andre is 2nd with 175 and Gesell is in 3rd.

need I go on?

Did you go and watch Gatens in person? He got himself in top notch condition and worked tremendously hard off the ball running through screens to get open. Seeing him work in person gives you a better appreciation. Then he was able to knock down shots especially the second half of his senior year. Gatens was also a fundamentally sound player.

Fleming was a long way from where Gatens was. Not saying he could not get there but in terms of helping the team next year that was probably not going to be the case. Fleming's shot was not nearly as good as we all expected. Just watch the pre-game warm-ups where he's throwing up many bricks while Jok is making 10 straight. If you are going to lack athleticism you had better be a knock down shooter and be crafty enough to get open. Wish Andrew nothing but the best but his departure is best for both parties. He needs to work exceptionally hard on his game and get on the floor at a level that makes sense for him.

There's another player on the roster I have questions about at this level.

 

[Jim4edwards]

Gatens was a slow footed shooting Guard and no he was not the most Athletic or fast, Hoerner was another slow White player that holds the all time assist record with over 600 assist Andre is 2nd with 175 and Gesell is in 3rd.

need I go on?

Sure, but how many times did they posterize the competition with a high flying dunk in transition? That's the type of athlete I dream of having at the wing positions.

 

[Scott559]

Who really knows what the future held for Hutton or Fleming, Like most I had hopes Hutton could be a bit of force on the boards and a defensive stopper, I was hoping Fleming could end up being in the mold of Baker at Wichita State or Iowa's own Gatens, I'm not all caught up in the White guys are all slow of foot and therefore can't play stereotype, Unless some of our posters saw these guys in practice everyday I have no idea how they are voicing opinions with any sort of confidence, I never got a glimpse of Hutton and the sample size with Fleming was so small kinda hard to make any real judgement on what they will or won't be able to do in a year or two or three. I guess I don't have a good crystal ball.

 

[hawkeyeguy69]

If Fran wanted to keep either one, I believe he could have talked them into staying. It is easy to think about, FOUR seniors leave along with an overwhelming majority of our minutes. That's a ton of playing time to offer.

These were mutual departures, IMHO. One more to go, and we can start adding players to the team.

There is still time to gain good players for 2016. We did not get Cartwright until June. He was a good get. Someone like him would be very beneficial to play along side Williams and Bohannon.