Did we swing & miss on Fleming and Hutton or were they just impatient?

[hawksense]

Fran filled the available schollie slots with talent he thought would work. As usual, fans were excited about talent they hadn't seen and didn't know much about. Include myself and the coaches, too.

They chose to transfer because of what they see around them and after having frank discussions with coaches, I believe. I would think it bodes well for what's on the roster of they didn't feel they would get the floor time they wanted.

Over time, I'm sure they would have contributed. Just not enough in their minds.

 

[TicoHawk]

dale jones would get injured and get another year

Missed that. Does Jones have two years of eligibility left?

 

[tdburg11]

Obviously both want to play and they weren't.

Do you think these 2 were recruiting "misses" or do you think that they would have developed at Iowa if they had been patient?

Everybody says Fran is a great evaluator on talent. Do you still think this way when it comes to these 2 players?

Just curious on people's thoughts. I think it's a combo of both; Fleming does not play D and Hutton had to develop his offensive game and both were probably not going to see much playing time next year.

I wish Ellingson would have left instead of Flemming.

 

[RocknRollface]

This simply allows Iowa to upgrade quicker now.

I've always said it's better to let the depth chart shake out and have those at the bottom move on rather than tie up all the ships.

 

[skydog0784]

Missed that. Does Jones have two years of eligibility left?

He has one year of eligibility left at this point. He would have two years of eligibility left if he seeks and is granted a medical redshirt AND the staff agrees to it - i.e. retaining him for the following year.

I've read that his rehab is not going as well as expected. He has limited mobility and strength in his knee.

Total speculation but I don't think he'll be on scholarship beyond next year.

 

[TouchdownHawks]

Andrew had cement legs.. Never would have been a defender or effective offensive 2...

 

[hawkeyefan101160]

The register article about Fleming makes him look bad. Clearly he thought he should have played more and he didn't. Jok was ahead of him and averaged 16 a game. Sounded like e had attitude problems. He has a Kobe Bryant attitude with very little talent. Ellingson, it's obvious he has limitations and struggled shooting the ball and Hutton, who knows, is athletic but sounded like he was reluctant to redshirt and a bad fit for both. I think Iowa needs to get guys more of Tyler cooks profile in terms or ranking and push more buttons and be willing to brake a rule or two to get a big time player. Wish Fran wouldn't be waited and maybe broke a rule to get Charlie Moore.

 

[SDHawkDoc]

I'm only slightly bothered by Hutton moving on, as I was hoping he might provide some of the toughness and grit which the team definitely needs.
As for Fleming, meh. I didn't see anything in his limited time on the floor that was at all impressive.
With the glut of players they had at the 2 and 3 spots, it's in some ways a good thing that they've freed up scholarships and playing time on the wings.

Now, hopefully, there will be a grad transfer point guard that Fran can bring in.

 

[pulpfiction1]

From the little that we all saw of Flemming this year, it was evident to me that he's not a high quality basketball talent. He showed me nothing, and I don't think he would've been more than some end of the bench rarely utilized player for us. Glad we can use the scholly on someone else.

I was excited when we got Hutton, and sad to hear he's transferring, but sounds like he may too have been nothing more than a min. role player later on.

 

[Ihawkhoops]

Gatens was a slow footed shooting Guard and no he was not the most Athletic or fast, Hoerner was another slow White player that holds the all time assist record with over 600 assist Andre is 2nd with 175 and Gesell is in 3rd.

need I go on?

I am no talent scout, but when you connect marginally athletic + can't create own shot + will struggle to defend in the big ten, I don't know how that adds up to" Offer". I get Oglesby because we were dealing with a post-apocalypse scenario, but Ellingson, Fleming and now Bohannon? I am OK with investing one scholarship in the 3 point specialist role and seeing how it plays out. We cannot have 2-3 guys on the bench who, if they aren't able to get wide open looks from 3, can't add any value and can't defend. It's all connected. A better PG is possibly able to get these guys looks, which mitigates their inability to create their own shot, but we haven't been able to do that either.

Not taking anything away from Gesell, the guy played his tail off for 4 years, but having him at the 1 and Clemmons at the 2 was a major liability for the team for about 90% of the season. No reason to guard these guys and much easier to overplay Jok and Uthoff. Fran gets a juco 2 in here last year or a recruit or gets a post who can score and teams would be forced to guard more than 2 guys.

 

[Ihawkhoops]

If Fran wanted to keep either one, I believe he could have talked them into staying. It is easy to think about, FOUR seniors leave along with an overwhelming majority of our minutes. That's a ton of playing time to offer.

These were mutual departures, IMHO. One more to go, and we can start adding players to the team.

There is still time to gain good players for 2016. We did not get Cartwright until June. He was a good get. Someone like him would be very beneficial to play along side Williams and Bohannon.

I hope you are right, but my confidence is fading with respect Fran's ability to realistically evaluate talent and the needs of the team. The obvious path would seem to be for Fran to give Baer a spot and find a juco, decommit, or grad transfer PG with some offensive skills. What I suspect will happen is Fran will offer Baer, throw offers at a couple kids out of our league, then bank the scholarship citing that Williams, Bohannon, Uhl, and Pemsl are all great ball handlers and this guy and that guy have improved so much we won't recognize them.

 

[like-woahh]

I am no talent scout, but when you connect marginally athletic + can't create own shot + will struggle to defend in the big ten, I don't know how that adds up to" Offer". I get Oglesby because we were dealing with a post-apocalypse scenario, but Ellingson, Fleming and now Bohannon? I am OK with investing one scholarship in the 3 point specialist role and seeing how it plays out. We cannot have 2-3 guys on the bench who, if they aren't able to get wide open looks from 3, can't add any value and can't defend. It's all connected. A better PG is possibly able to get these guys looks, which mitigates their inability to create their own shot, but we haven't been able to do that either.

Not taking anything away from Gesell, the guy played his tail off for 4 years, but having him at the 1 and Clemmons at the 2 was a major liability for the team for about 90% of the season. No reason to guard these guys and much easier to overplay Jok and Uthoff. Fran gets a juco 2 in here last year or a recruit or gets a post who can score and teams would be forced to guard more than 2 guys.

To be fair to Fran, I think Dale Jones was that guy, but he got hurt. There were a few games early in the season when he got on a roll and he would have been huge for this team. Basically another stretch 4 on the court coming off the bench.

In hindsight, that injury probably cost them a 4-5 seed.

Completely agree with having Gesell/Clemmons on the floor at the same time. No true shooting guard, and neither could score consistently at the point.

People keep wondering why Iowa tanked halfway through the season. I feel like it's as simple as other teams learned how to defend them. Get in Uthoff's face, rough up Jok (even if you get a few cheap fouls). No reason to double on Woody because he wasn't going to go one on one in the post and make Gesell/Clemmons beat you shooting from the perimeter (which they couldn't do)

 

[hansenhawk]

Some of Fran's moves are perplexing, that is for sure.

I am just not sure what he is trying to do, what type of team he is trying to create?

 

[RocknRollface]

Some of Fran's moves are perplexing, that is for sure.

I am just not sure what he is trying to do, what type of team he is trying to create?

Are you under the impression they guys hes signed are his ideal team?

You can only sign who is willing to come.

 

[BBHawk]

too much striking out in my opinion....when do we hit the home run?

White, Gabe, Uthoff...there have been success stories for a team that was dead and buried for about 5 years, and on the way down the 5 before that. Now IA has Jok (probably) coming back, with a couple of budding stars waiting in the wings in Moss, Williams, and Cook.

 

[BBHawk]

He has one year of eligibility left at this point. He would have two years of eligibility left if he seeks and is granted a medical redshirt AND the staff agrees to it - i.e. retaining him for the following year.

I've read that his rehab is not going as well as expected. He has limited mobility and strength in his knee.

Total speculation but I don't think he'll be on scholarship beyond next year.

McC has said that DJ is ahead of schedule.

 

[skydog0784]

He has one year of eligibility left at this point. He would have two years of eligibility left if he seeks and is granted a medical redshirt AND the staff agrees to it - i.e. retaining him for the following year.

I've read that his rehab is not going as well as expected. He has limited mobility and strength in his knee.

Total speculation but I don't think he'll be on scholarship beyond next year.

McC has said that DJ is ahead of schedule.

Did he also mention that Gesell will be playing in the NBA as a PG? Will never forget that nice sound bite by Fran (very early - about when he signed, not a rip on Mike as I think he's great player, and more importantly, a great young man) . Not that I blame Fran, it's his job to promote the program and his players.

I hope Jones recovers as he brings a lot to the table from what I could tell in the limited action we saw - particularly with the 3-ball.

I remain skeptical. Like I said, I hope I'm wrong about this.

 

[KeyWest Tim]

You can't live on finding "hidden gems" in the Big Ten like you can do at a Sienna.

Sooner rather than if there is a later you have to get 1 Stud a year that can come in and play and a couple of Top100 players each year.

That is what is missing it appears from the last 2 and possibly 3 recruiting classes.

 

[BBHawk]

Did he also mention that Gesell will be playing in the NBA as a PG? Will never forget that nice sound bite by Fran (very early - about when he signed, not a rip on Mike as I think he's great player, and more importantly, a great young man) . Not that I blame Fran, it's his job to promote the program and his players.

I hope Jones recovers as he brings a lot to the table from what I could tell in the limited action we saw - particularly with the 3-ball.

I remain skeptical. Like I said, I hope I'm wrong about this.

Have you seen DJ since the surgery? I have. Several times. And he is moving well with no apparent discomfort. I couple that with what McC has said to make a statement that has some basis in fact. What are you basing your statement on again? Where did you read this report? I have not seen it anywhere.

 

[cocoem]

I still think Fleming had some talent, had a bit of a swagger to him that I liked. Too bad Fran couldn't tap into that.

Watch him go blow up somewhere now.

Too slow and a broken down jumper. He will be a nice piece at a mid-major somewhere.

 

[cocoem]

I totally agree. We also need to remember that even though Flemming wasn't super athletic by B1G standards in high school he would have been much MUCH more athletic and skilled than 95% of the guys he played against. How many 6'5", well built guys with very good guard skills did any of you play against in high school? MAYBE 1? So he could make up for lack of defensive skill, etc just by being bigger, faster and stronger than his competition. Then in the B1G you have 6'8" guys just as quick and skilled (or better) as 6'2" guards you played against in high school.
Truth is it would have been survival of the fittest, he had a chance to be a starter or significant role player next season. Obviously despite the swagger he isn't that into serious competition.

He was a good HS player that squeezed into Oak Hill somehow. Watched him half a dozen times play for Oak Hill and did nothing to show he was a B10 player. IMO he wasted a valuable year playing at Oak Hill and it bled over to Iowa.
If you watch the Oak Hill type fake high schools play...it is really good AAU basketball. Whoever has it better get it up because they are not getting it back. Terrible basketball and he had no business being on that team.

 

[BEAVERDALEHAWK]

What are we like 2 weeks done with the season and I'm already sick of these threads. Is the OP really that confused about how transferring works in college basketball? I got I thought for people on here. What if Moss is that good. What if he's taking all the minutes at the 2. Why think positive about a 4 star redshirt freshman when you can try and complain about Fran.

He was asking a question.

 

[BEAVERDALEHAWK]

For anyone sad about Fleming or Hutton... Pretend they didn't leave. Draw up your 2 deeps for next year.

Put yourself in Fran's office. You're Andrew, You're Brandon, You talk to coach and ask, "where am I next year?" Look at that 2 deep you just drew up.

Exactly! Good post!

 

[jthawk]

I am no talent scout, but when you connect marginally athletic + can't create own shot + will struggle to defend in the big ten, I don't know how that adds up to" Offer". I get Oglesby because we were dealing with a post-apocalypse scenario, but Ellingson, Fleming and now Bohannon? I am OK with investing one scholarship in the 3 point specialist role and seeing how it plays out. We cannot have 2-3 guys on the bench who, if they aren't able to get wide open looks from 3, can't add any value and can't defend. It's all connected. A better PG is possibly able to get these guys looks, which mitigates their inability to create their own shot, but we haven't been able to do that either.

Not taking anything away from Gesell, the guy played his tail off for 4 years, but having him at the 1 and Clemmons at the 2 was a major liability for the team for about 90% of the season. No reason to guard these guys and much easier to overplay Jok and Uthoff. Fran gets a juco 2 in here last year or a recruit or gets a post who can score and teams would be forced to guard more than 2 guys.

You really should have quit after "I'm no talent scout"...

 

[farfaraway]

I don't see how 13 scholarship players get near equal playing time. Some will get 20+ minutes. Some therefore have to get <5 minutes. Doesn't necessarily mean any are a miss.

 

[Ihawkhoops]

You really should have quit after "I'm no talent scout"...

Two recruits gone followed by Dickerson leaving....none did anything to add value to a team in need of athleticism and better guard play. No worries.

 

[hawksense]

Formula for Iowa to succeed: 7 players who are athletic enough to defend and run. One transcendent talent (I've said this on many occasions and I love the word) a la, a Lester, Woolridge, Rick Davis (don't knock it. He was talented.), Marble, etc. 2 better than average complementary players, B1G second, third, honorable mention type. And everyone else needs to be competent and gutsy. 7 players. And the rest can be developmental with a sprinkling of playing time in the right situations.

What I've just described is very difficult to do. At Iowa. Or anywhere money isn't being thrown around. It's just hard. Look around at what other campuses have to offer. Actually go and look.

I love Iowa City. Love it. But it's an armpit compared to what other schools have to offer. Let me reiterate that I love Iowa City. I just got back from Madison, though, and ummm......wow.

Fran will find his best results when the State is producing high quality players to upgrade the out of state talent he finds. It's simple. When Iowa is keeping the best instate kids that are worthy, that's when we have the best chances to win. Throw in Randle from Rock Island. He's regional. An hour from Iowa City. And a Stanford Cardinal great. Paige. Any of the previous Bohannons.

We'll see what happens when Connor and Weiskamp get here. They are supposed to be major players. With Cook already in fold, we'll see.

 

[gilligan19]

The register article about Fleming makes him look bad. Clearly he thought he should have played more and he didn't. Jok was ahead of him and averaged 16 a game. Sounded like e had attitude problems. He has a Kobe Bryant attitude with very little talent. Ellingson, it's obvious he has limitations and struggled shooting the ball and Hutton, who knows, is athletic but sounded like he was reluctant to redshirt and a bad fit for both. I think Iowa needs to get guys more of Tyler cooks profile in terms or ranking and push more buttons and be willing to brake a rule or two to get a big time player. Wish Fran wouldn't be waited and maybe broke a rule to get Charlie Moore.

and IA would get hammered for cheating, they are not a so called blue blood that if they are caught gets a so called slap on the wrist, no I like the no cheating route,

 

[slipHawk]

too much striking out in my opinion....when do we hit the home run?

Aaron White was a 3rd base hit.

 

[gilligan19]

Fleming has the talent other wise he never would have been allowed into Oak Hill Academy, let alone play for them. Fleming made a big mistake by going to Oak Hill as it ruined him, he was the type that after going there he got the attitude that he should get more playing time at a school like IA as IA is a team that is not loaded with Talent.

Hutton did not want to RS but did, in the end neither were misses as they were just not content or satisfied with their roles on this team, bad marriage if you will for a better comparison.

rather than responding to a poster that asked about Gatens, yes I watched him, under Lick he got fat out of shape and was slow. under Fran who put him on a diet to lose 20+ lbs, he improved his ability to move, as for his 3 point shooting these were his avg's
FR 40.3%
SO 32.8%
then Fran took over
JR 33.1%
SR 41.0%
everybody remembers his SR year but ignore his SO and JR years,

I watched this kid all 4 years while he played for the Hawks,

as for Horner he had Brunner as his main teammate and he did the heavy lifting so to speak.

loved Gatens and what he did for IA but he was not the end all of end all players. Jok was a risk becase of his knee surgery but he turned out just fine, White was 3* player that the major schools in Ohio had no interest in and he turned far better that anybody could have for, Basabe was a total unkown to IA fans and until Fran tried to bulk him up started out on the BT Freshman team, Marble a 3* that MSU and Michingan never gave a 2nd look at ended up in the NBA.

in the future thing are looking up. players transfer all the time, Fran has been lucky that he has only had these in 6 years, Hutton, Fleming, Dickerson left and Uthoff transferred in, in my opinion JUCO's don't count.

but for the record these are the more noteable Cartwright in his 1st season, Dickerson who left and Jones who had Knee surgery.

 

[gilligan19]

Fran has come along way since he took over.
1st season 11 wins total 4-14 in the BT
2nd season 18 total wins 8-10 T-7TH in the BT NIT
3rd season 25 total wins 9-9 6th alone in the BT NIT CHAMPIONSHIP GAME
4th season 20 total wins 9-9 6th alone in the BT 1st appearance in the NCAA's
5th season 22 total wins 12-6 T-3rd in the BT 1st 1st round win since the 00-01 season
6th season 22 total wins 12-6 T-3rd in the BT 2nd straight year with a 1st round NCAA win 1st time that has happened since Dr Tom's last 2 years, also 4th straight seasons with 20 Regular season wins ever in the history of IA BB, YES there have been 4 consecutive years of 20 win season BUT NEVER regular season wins.

also MG and AW combined to lead IA to 89 total wins 3rd most in IA's 100+ year history not bad for a bunch of so called misses and or failures by a poor coach that can't recruit the right players,

 

[like-woahh]

Why are you so obsessed with Dr. Tom, Kilroy. Will you ever be able to let go of him? That time was three coaches ago, give it up.

 

[hooper56]

He has one year of eligibility left at this point

I've read that his rehab is not going as well as expected. He has limited mobility and strength in his knee.

.

WHERE did you "read" this as it doesn't go with what the coaches have said?

 

[skydog0784]

WHERE did you "read" this as it doesn't go with what the coaches have said?

Not anything formal, just what I've read on the boards & what a friend of mine has told me he's observed & heard around IC.

A poor, misleading choice of words on my part.

Like I said, even bolded, in my post; total speculation on my (and by extension my friend's I suppose) part.

 

[hooper56]

Interesting because the head hawk himself stated that Jones' rehab was actually ahead of schedule and that his knee was as healthy as it has ever been. Maybe he is wrong though and your friend is right.

 

[Ihawkhoops]

I think there are extremes on both sides of this debate. We were terrible under Lickliter and that is not where the bar should be set. Dr. Tom had some un-Iowa like talent here thanks to Raveling's recruiting and did some damage in March, which is also probably not where the bar should be set.

Personally, I am OK with a team that has some ups and downs in the regular season if they develop over the season. Everybody wants to be playing their best in March and not everyone can do that, but we seem to play pretty close to our worst. That is a bit hard to figure out, especially when it's the same issues that have been discussed on the board at length. That is where the majority of my frustration stems from--inability to fix or mitigate what's broken in January and February by the BTT or NCAA tourney.

A regular season big ten title would be nice, but not sure we will ever have the horses to win out over the course of a long season when facing other teams with a couple NBA prospects on their roster. I would like to see Fran change the culture from competing to winning and this is not a dig on Fran, just my two cents. Start by winning or at least playing for the title in a pre-season tournament, then win a couple games in the BTT to experience some bigger game pressure. No doubt there will be stumbles through the regular season, but try to avoid 3+ game losing streaks and continue to defend the home court.

There is a mentality or toughness that has been lacking since Fran arrived. Individual players have possessed it, but as a whole, I cannot say that any of Fran's teams have been mentally or physically tough. Maybe it is selective memory, but the better Iowa teams I remember seemed to have a bit of a chip on their shoulder and played with an edge. This is why I think it is so critical for Fran to find a PG who can carry the team in the tough spots we have struggled in the past few years. Maybe it is Williams. I like that he is not afraid of the moment and seems to have some swagger. I don't think we get past the second round of the tournament until we find "that guy".

 

[HerkyHopeful]

Fleming never had any offensive flow when he came into games. Just jacked up shots. I had a feeling all along he was going to transfer.

I mean in his last game he threw up a free throw line one-legged floater, that's not a B1G player. I hope he finds a good fit wherever he goes

 

[David1979]

Fleming has the talent other wise he never would have been allowed into Oak Hill Academy, let alone play for them. Fleming made a big mistake by going to Oak Hill as it ruined him, he was the type that after going there he got the attitude that he should get more playing time at a school like IA as IA is a team that is not loaded with Talent.

Hutton did not want to RS but did, in the end neither were misses as they were just not content or satisfied with their roles on this team, bad marriage if you will for a better comparison.

rather than responding to a poster that asked about Gatens, yes I watched him, under Lick he got fat out of shape and was slow. under Fran who put him on a diet to lose 20+ lbs, he improved his ability to move, as for his 3 point shooting these were his avg's
FR 40.3%
SO 32.8%
then Fran took over
JR 33.1%
SR 41.0%
everybody remembers his SR year but ignore his SO and JR years,

I watched this kid all 4 years while he played for the Hawks,

as for Horner he had Brunner as his main teammate and he did the heavy lifting so to speak.

loved Gatens and what he did for IA but he was not the end all of end all players. Jok was a risk becase of his knee surgery but he turned out just fine, White was 3* player that the major schools in Ohio had no interest in and he turned far better that anybody could have for, Basabe was a total unkown to IA fans and until Fran tried to bulk him up started out on the BT Freshman team, Marble a 3* that MSU and Michingan never gave a 2nd look at ended up in the NBA.

in the future thing are looking up. players transfer all the time, Fran has been lucky that he has only had these in 6 years, Hutton, Fleming, Dickerson left and Uthoff transferred in, in my opinion JUCO's don't count.

but for the record these are the more noteable Cartwright in his 1st season, Dickerson who left and Jones who had Knee surgery.

What in the heck are you blabbering about?