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Exploding Energy Costs and Grid Frailty

Nov 28, 2010
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Time for those of us with sunny roofs to think solar panels? Maybe a natural gas generator for others? Tesla whole-home batteries?

A partial solution would be a carbon tax - with most of the revenues going into the grid and lots to green solutions for homeowners. Naturally the Rs will be pushing to drill, drill, drill.

Would a carbon tax cause the crypto bubble to collapse? That would be another benefit. AI, on the other hand is a needed growth sector.

I'm reliably assured that modern nuclear plants are safe enough. Whatever that means. If so, we lefties need to get out of the way - but make sure nuclear plants are true public utilities, not controlled by corner-cutting, profiteering corporations or plutocrats.

Amid explosive demand, America is running out of power

AI and the boom in clean-tech manufacturing are pushing America’s power grid to the brink. Utilities can’t keep up.


Vast swaths of the United States are at risk of running short of power as electricity-hungry data centers and clean-technology factories proliferate around the country, leaving utilities and regulators grasping for credible plans to expand the nation’s creaking power grid.

In Georgia, demand for industrial power is surging to record highs, with the projection of new electricity use for the next decade now 17 times what it was only recently. Arizona Public Service, the largest utility in that state, is also struggling to keep up, projecting it will be out of transmission capacity before the end of the decade absent major upgrades.

Northern Virginia needs the equivalent of several large nuclear power plants to serve all the new data centers planned and under construction. Texas, where electricity shortages are already routine on hot summer days, faces the same dilemma.

A major factor behind the skyrocketing demand is the rapid innovation in artificial intelligence, which is driving the construction of large warehouses of computing infrastructure that require exponentially more power than traditional data centers. AI is also part of a huge scale-up of cloud computing. Tech firms like Amazon, Apple, Google, Meta and Microsoft are scouring the nation for sites for new data centers, and many lesser-known firms are also on the hunt.

The proliferation of crypto-mining, in which currencies like bitcoin are transacted and minted, is also driving data center growth. It is all putting new pressures on an overtaxed grid — the network of transmission lines and power stations that move electricity around the country. Bottlenecks are mounting, leaving both new generators of energy, particularly clean energy, and large consumers facing growing wait times for hookups.

The situation is sparking battles across the nation over who will pay for new power supplies, with regulators worrying that residential ratepayers could be stuck with the bill for costly upgrades. It also threatens to stifle the transition to cleaner energy, as utility executives lobby to delay the retirement of fossil fuel plants and bring more online. The power crunch imperils their ability to supply the energy that will be needed to charge the millions of electric cars and household appliances required to meet state and federal climate goals.

more here:

 
Would a carbon tax cause the crypto bubble to collapse? That would be another benefit.
Webcomic_xkcd_-_Wikipedian_protester_cropped.png
 
They could go green or go overseas (our usual solution is to push our problems onto the backs of poor countries) but those facilities are energy gluttons and they'll be paying a hefty carbon tax for every KwH of carbon-fueled energy they use.
A group of scientists from Cornell University in the United States determined that establishing Bitcoin mining operations in strategic locations could diminish the environmental footprint of cryptocurrencies by serving as revenue that can be directed toward future investments in renewable energy projects.

In the October 2023 study, researchers concluded that monetizing the excess power collected by renewable energy could earn hundreds of millions of dollars thanks to Bitcoin mining.

They stated that, in the U.S. alone, there is substantial revenue potential during the pre-commercial development phase of wind or solar farms. In this phase, the farms are generating electricity but not yet integrated into the broader grid.

Developers could recover millions of dollars, which can then be invested in future renewable projects.

Texas has the highest potential, according to the study, with 32 planned renewable projects that could generate a combined profit of $47 million by mining Bitcoin during pre-commercial operations.

Bitcoin mining can further provide a flexible customer to wind and solar energy installations, the peak production times of which may not always correspond to periods of peak demand.

Additionally, Bitcoin mining could give renewable utilities “the ability to play the arbitrage between electricity prices and Bitcoin prices,” according to investment firm ARK Invest in a 2021 report.

Margot Paez, a fellow at the Bitcoin Policy Institute and a Bitcoin mining sustainability and environmental consultant, told Cointelegraph:

“There’s often a supply-demand mismatch that causes excess production of renewable power. Bitcoin mining acts as an off-taker that pays for the electricity that would otherwise be wasted. In turn, Bitcoin mining benefits from using renewable energy instead of fossil fuels, improving the network’s carbon footprint. It’s a win-win.”
 
In a recently published report, KPMG makes the case that bitcoin can serve a number of ESG functions—from stabilizing power grids and driving investment in renewables to monetizing stranded energy and capturing methane. The paper coincides with new research from Cambridge University and Bloomberg Intelligence that reveals bitcoin’s environmental impact to be much smaller than previously thought. And it comes just weeks after BlackRock—the largest asset manager in the world and one of the leading proponents of ESG—announced that it had filed for a spot bitcoin ETF.

BTC As ESG

In the ongoing debate over bitcoin’s energy consumption, enough ink has been spilled and paper printed to be its own environmental issue. But in 2023, the winds are changing. Not only do they propel the turbines that power bitcoin mining—they are beginning to shift in the cryptocurrency’s favor.

KPMG’s report challenges conventional wisdom on Wall Street with a provocative thesis. In the words of its authors, “Bitcoin appears to provide a number of benefits across an ESG framework.” These benefits include:

Creating New Markets For Renewable Energy

Bitcoin miners can tap into any energy source, anytime, anywhere in the world. And they are in constant search of low-cost energy, which they increasingly find in under-utilized renewable sources, such as hydro, wind, geothermal, and solar.

Because they are subject to the whims of nature, windmills, solar panels, and dams often create energy when nobody needs it. This is known as “stranded energy,” and without a buyer, it goes to waste. Bitcoin, however, creates a robust marketplace for this kind of energy. Because the Bitcoin network runs 24/7/365, it can make use of renewable energy at all hours of the day and during any season of the year. Bitcoin’s flexible demand load not only can increase revenue for green power providers but can also encourage further investment in clean energy.

Stabilizing Power Grids

Matching supply with demand is one of the most significant challenges facing power providers. Too much energy production can overwhelm the grid. But so can too much demand. This is where bitcoin comes in.

Bitcoin miners can act as an energy sponge, soaking up excess energy when needed to prevent it from overloading the grid. But they can just as easily shut off at a moment’s notice when demand grows too high, as bitcoin miners did during a heat wave in Texas last month. The ability of bitcoin miners to do everything—or nothing—all at once is a boon to power providers. But it can also benefit customers by mitigating demand spikes to help keep prices low.

Reducing Methane Emissions

Methane is a significant driver of climate change. According to the KPMG report, methane is 80 times more potent than carbon dioxide and is responsible for approximately 30% of global warming. To make matters worse, landfills act as methane mega factories, spewing toxic gas into the air as a byproduct of the decomposition process.

So what to do about all this methane? Believe it or not, bitcoin fixes this.

Companies are finding ways to capture vented methane on landfills and then turning that methane into electricity. They then use that electricity to mine bitcoin. This practice both reduces carbon emissions and monetizes stranded energy by taking toxic fumes and converting them into digital gold. If the process can be scaled, it could forever change the way landfills operate.

Other firms are following a similar model by converting flared gas into electricity to mine bitcoin. Like methane capture, this process harnesses energy that otherwise would have gone to waste. Consider that the potential energy of flared gas in the US and Canada could power the entire bitcoin blockchain, according to Harvard Business Review.
 
Time for those of us with sunny roofs to think solar panels? Maybe a natural gas generator for others? Tesla whole-home batteries?

A partial solution would be a carbon tax - with most of the revenues going into the grid and lots to green solutions for homeowners. Naturally the Rs will be pushing to drill, drill, drill.

Would a carbon tax cause the crypto bubble to collapse? That would be another benefit. AI, on the other hand is a needed growth sector.

I'm reliably assured that modern nuclear plants are safe enough. Whatever that means. If so, we lefties need to get out of the way - but make sure nuclear plants are true public utilities, not controlled by corner-cutting, profiteering corporations or plutocrats.

Amid explosive demand, America is running out of power

AI and the boom in clean-tech manufacturing are pushing America’s power grid to the brink. Utilities can’t keep up.


Vast swaths of the United States are at risk of running short of power as electricity-hungry data centers and clean-technology factories proliferate around the country, leaving utilities and regulators grasping for credible plans to expand the nation’s creaking power grid.

In Georgia, demand for industrial power is surging to record highs, with the projection of new electricity use for the next decade now 17 times what it was only recently. Arizona Public Service, the largest utility in that state, is also struggling to keep up, projecting it will be out of transmission capacity before the end of the decade absent major upgrades.

Northern Virginia needs the equivalent of several large nuclear power plants to serve all the new data centers planned and under construction. Texas, where electricity shortages are already routine on hot summer days, faces the same dilemma.

A major factor behind the skyrocketing demand is the rapid innovation in artificial intelligence, which is driving the construction of large warehouses of computing infrastructure that require exponentially more power than traditional data centers. AI is also part of a huge scale-up of cloud computing. Tech firms like Amazon, Apple, Google, Meta and Microsoft are scouring the nation for sites for new data centers, and many lesser-known firms are also on the hunt.

The proliferation of crypto-mining, in which currencies like bitcoin are transacted and minted, is also driving data center growth. It is all putting new pressures on an overtaxed grid — the network of transmission lines and power stations that move electricity around the country. Bottlenecks are mounting, leaving both new generators of energy, particularly clean energy, and large consumers facing growing wait times for hookups.

The situation is sparking battles across the nation over who will pay for new power supplies, with regulators worrying that residential ratepayers could be stuck with the bill for costly upgrades. It also threatens to stifle the transition to cleaner energy, as utility executives lobby to delay the retirement of fossil fuel plants and bring more online. The power crunch imperils their ability to supply the energy that will be needed to charge the millions of electric cars and household appliances required to meet state and federal climate goals.

more here:


A carbon tax to update the power grid for investor owned utilities. Maybe do it the old fashioned way, use part of the profits to do the upgrades.
 
They could go green or go overseas (our usual solution is to push our problems onto the backs of poor countries) but those facilities are energy gluttons and they'll be paying a hefty carbon tax for every KwH of carbon-fueled energy they use.
To paraphrase Ike, every dollar spent on making crypto green is theft from children and useful industry.

Countries that become crypto havens to escape our taxation and regulation could come under sanctions, tariffs, stuxnet-like attacks, or even bombardment.

Frankly, I'm surprised such attacks haven't already happened. How excited would speculators be to invest in that bubble if some crypto farms are brought down or corrupted?

Which countries would benefit most from crippling crypto? China? Russia? The US? Iran?
 
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Better start plugging a few million more cars into that grid to achieve true equity.
Fortunately the party of common sense is putting some money into charging stations, battery manufacturing, and grid improvements. Not enough, but some.

The idiot party stands by and tries to mock and sabotage these efforts.

I'll vote for the one that's doing something positive. I hope enough Americans are equally sensible.
 
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To paraphrase Ike, every dollar spent on making crypto green is theft from children and useful industry.

Your error is that thinking money the politicians can't inflate isn't useful to mankind.

Countries that become crypto havens to escape our taxation and regulation could come under sanctions, tariffs, stuxnet-like attacks, or even bombardment.

Do you have any idea how insane you sound wanting to attack and destroy people for doing something you make clear in post after post you simply don't understand?
 
Fortunately the party of common sense is putting some money into charging stations, battery manufacturing, and grid improvements. Not enough, but some.

The idiot party stands by and tries to mock and sabotage these efforts.

I'll vote for the one that's doing something positive. I hope enough Americans are equally sensible.
How would adding charging stations assist with the grid? Where do you think those battery materials are sourced? Zero ethical concerns over cobalt? What soecific grid improvements are they implementing that can see a 10x surge in current demand and where are they doing this?

The intelligent "party" is asking common sense questions that the climate nuts are incapable of answering
 
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How would adding charging stations assist with the grid? Where do you think those battery materials are sourced? Zero ethical concerns over cobalt? What soecific grid improvements are they implementing that can see a 10x surge in current demand and where are they doing this?

The intelligent "party" is asking common sense questions that the climate nuts are incapable of answering

>50% of Tesla’s EVs are LFP. Lithium Iron Phosphate. No nickel or cobalt.

EV batteries can be and are being recycled at 95% recapture rate by Redwood Materials.

What is the recycle rate of gasoline & diesel?
 
>50% of Tesla’s EVs are LFP. Lithium Iron Phosphate. No nickel or cobalt.

EV batteries can be and are being recycled at 95% recapture rate by Redwood Materials.

What is the recycle rate of gasoline & diesel?
More than half is good but not great. Definitely better stewards than the other big auto groups who somehow enjoy greater ESG scores than tesla despite all this. I think solid lithium offers a promising horizon for EVs and the tech is very impressive. Long way to go before it overtakes petroleum and even then petroleum will always have a time and place but I do believe ev cars will be a major player for retail autos one day. The question becomes intelligent implementation.
 
Better start plugging a few million more cars into that grid to achieve true equity.

How much electricity is necessary to transport oil, refine oil into gasoline, store gasoline, transport gasoline, and then transfer gasoline to customers?

How efficient at using energy is a gasoline engine?

How efficient at using energy is an electric vehicle?

Answer these questions and you will understand why China has concluded EVs are the future.

The energy efficiency use is not close.
 
More than half is good but not great. Definitely better stewards than the other big auto groups who somehow enjoy greater ESG scores than tesla despite all this. I think solid lithium offers a promising horizon for EVs and the tech is very impressive. Long way to go before it overtakes petroleum and even then petroleum will always have a time and place but I do believe ev cars will be a major player for retail autos one day. The question becomes intelligent implementation.

Fair
 
Why do you think this climate change scam was introduced, so lemmings like the OP would voluntarily give more of their money to the government. You leftists are so gullible. :rolleyes:
 
Do you have any idea how insane you sound wanting to attack and destroy people for doing something you make clear in post after post you simply don't understand?
Then explain it. You sound like a Kool Aid drinker, but I'm willing to be persuaded.

Saying I don't understand something over and over doesn't make it true unless you explain. It just makes you a name-caller.
 
How much electricity is necessary to transport oil, refine oil into gasoline, store gasoline, transport gasoline, and then transfer gasoline to customers?

How efficient at using energy is a gasoline engine?

How efficient at using energy is an electric vehicle?

Answer these questions and you will understand why China has concluded EVs are the future.

The energy efficiency use is not close.
Yes, China is at least a decade ahead of the US in this arena. Tech they developed and didn't steal even, they're heavily invested. They're also willing to burn all the coal they want (much dirtier than ours too) until other generation techs take off. Again, I think long term and reliable energy storage is the future. I wish we'd be willing to burn our coal and invest in nuclear. It would definitely be better imo than all these ridiculous wind farms.
 
Then explain it. You sound like a Kool Aid drinker, but I'm willing to be persuaded.

Saying I don't understand something over and over doesn't make it true unless you explain. It just makes you a name-caller.
I mean your comments on crypto in numerous threads make it pretty clear you don’t understand it.
 
I mean your comments on crypto in numerous threads make it pretty clear you don’t understand it.
Now you are just repeating the same nonsense. The difference is that @seminole97 can carry on an intelligent conversation if he wants to. So far he hasn't, which is why I invited him to do so.

Now maybe I'm not giving you enough credit. So if you want to dive in and explain crypto - and, in particular, explain what you think I don't understand - by all means go for it.
 
The value of cryptocurrencies is driven by speculation. Gambling. Some people think that's better than the full faith and credit of the US. What's the argument that speculation is better than the backing of the US?

Come on all you guys who think I don't understand. Explain how gambling is better.

There are plenty of reasons to criticize the dollar and how we manage our currency but "gambling is better" isn't one of them.
 
The value of cryptocurrencies is driven by speculation. Gambling. Some people think that's better than the full faith and credit of the US. What's the argument that speculation is better than the backing of the US?

Come on all you guys who think I don't understand. Explain how gambling is better.

There are plenty of reasons to criticize the dollar and how we manage our currency but "gambling is better" isn't one of them.
Pretty sure I have a couple of times to you and a couple of other posters over the years. Not sure I want to waste my time explaining it again only to fall on deaf ears.

I’ll keep stacking $$$ because of it while you think it’s equivalent to tulip mania. Do your own research or I will just have someone else that wants to explain this do it.
 
Why do you think this climate change scam was introduced, so lemmings like the OP would voluntarily give more of their money to the government. You leftists are so gullible. :rolleyes:

Abby, you and I agree on a lot on here. I’m telling you climate change is not a scam. What some leftists are proposing to address it may be a scam. But the fact that the Earth is heating due to CO2 and other emissions due to human activity is real.




NASA isn’t lying.
ESA isn’t lying.
DOD isn’t lying.
 
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The value of cryptocurrencies is driven by speculation.

Why do you see no value in a money that politicians can’t steal the purchasing power of via the printing press?
What are you missing for me to explain to you on this point?
Do you think it mere speculation that we will enjoy trillion dollar deficits from now on?

.Some people think that's better than the full faith and credit of the US.

Do you understand what full faith and credit meant?
The federal reserve notes when introduced were warehouse receipts for a specific weight of gold. Full faith and credit meant that they actually had the gold available for redemption on demand.
FDR abrogated that, and Nixon killed it.
The destruction of the value of the USD followed.
Full faith and credit was already betrayed by the U.S. government.
This is the ignorance I’m talking about on the topic.
Do you understand now what happened, and that ‘full faith and credit’ is a dead letter and utterly meaningless in the context of the USD?
 
I have a friend working out in Palo installing the new solar project at the old nuclear plant. They have had to turn off some of the sections they have energized due to, to much power being on the grid. Makes me wonder why they haven't started installing the battery system yet on the site.

It is going to be important that we get more natural gas or nuclear peaker plants activated that can power up or down when needed. Older coal plants just don't have the capability to quickly change their output.
 
Trump’s fault? Do ILLEGALs add or reduce strain on already overloaded grids??
Good grief.

We are the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world and we don't have a grid that can withstand bad weather. Not once-in-a-century hurricanes or floods. Just bad weather.

If you think that was a complaint about Trump, you are so off the rails I don't know what to say to you. It was a complaint that there's no excuse for America to have problems like this.

Ditto if you think "illegals" are the problem with our crumbling gird.

SMH
 
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Good grief.

We are the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world and we don't have a grid that can withstand bad weather. Not once-in-a-century hurricanes or floods. Just bad weather.

If you think that's was a complaint about Trump, you are so off the rails I don't know what to say to you. It was a complaint that there's no excuse for America to have problems like this.

Ditto if you think "illegals" are the problem with our crumbling gird.

SMH
So $35,000,000,000,000 in debt = rich and millions of ILLEGALS are not using any energy? Got it!

 
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