Ferentz's Zenith

[wiggleGoat]

I have often contemplated the maximum potential of properties, how to measure the what is considered maxing out or underachieving is no precise formula. For example if LeBron James had a career like Dwayne Wade or Carmelo Anthony, would he be considered a massive underachiever?

If Kansas State won 10 games next year, they would be considered a massive success. If they fell back to say 7 to 8 wins, they would still be considered pretty good. If Alabama or Ohio State won 7 or 8 games people would be questioning what is wrong. Most of this is due to the programs history and recruiting prowess.

Wisconsin is an outlier in regards to how they recruit, compared to how they play. A class in the mid 30's to 40's should not win 10 games as often as they do. Their coaching carousel adds to this anomaly. They lose coaches and still win, Iowa is not at this level and I am beginning to wonder why.

Wisconsin is not a state filled with burners, they don't have higher rated recruits or better facilities. Why is it that they continue to outpace Iowa? Is Ferentz incapable of doing what Alvarez/Cookie King/Anderson/Dry paint do?

What is the key to Wisconsin? They have great line play, so does Iowa. They play strong fundamental defense and run the ball to cover up for the speed on the outside, so does Iowa. They are not considered a juggernaut like Michigan or Ohio State, yet they continue to win. Is Ferentz tenure more of a weight holding Iowa back, or is he the reason Iowa is so consistent ?

Would Iowa be better risking the farm to see if a change could get into a offensive resurgence, or should they stick with the old middle to upper middle pack of the conference? What is the ultimate floor/ceiling of this solid program?

 

[Suterman]

Wisconsin consistently gets better skill players than we do. Put Melvin Gordon in the gold & black and we would have won more games and Wisconsin would have lost more. Their running backs have been the difference.

 

[Harbinger273]

The answer with Wisky is PED's. Gordon would not have had a 400+ yd game at Iowa. Their O Line consistently averages 15 lbs heavier than ours.

 

[DodgerHawki]

I have often contemplated the maximum potential of properties, how to measure the what is considered maxing out or underachieving is no precise formula. For example if LeBron James had a career like Dwayne Wade or Carmelo Anthony, would he be considered a massive underachiever?

If Kansas State won 10 games next year, they would be considered a massive success. If they fell back to say 7 to 8 wins, they would still be considered pretty good. If Alabama or Ohio State won 7 or 8 games people would be questioning what is wrong. Most of this is due to the programs history and recruiting prowess.

Wisconsin is an outlier in regards to how they recruit, compared to how they play. A class in the mid 30's to 40's should not win 10 games as often as they do. Their coaching carousel adds to this anomaly. They lose coaches and still win, Iowa is not at this level and I am beginning to wonder why.

Wisconsin is not a state filled with burners, they don't have higher rated recruits or better facilities. Why is it that they continue to outpace Iowa? Is Ferentz incapable of doing what Alvarez/Cookie King/Anderson/Dry paint do?

What is the key to Wisconsin? They have great line play, so does Iowa. They play strong fundamental defense and run the ball to cover up for the speed on the outside, so does Iowa. They are not considered a juggernaut like Michigan or Ohio State, yet they continue to win. Is Ferentz tenure more of a weight holding Iowa back, or is he the reason Iowa is so consistent ?

Would Iowa be better risking the farm to see if a change could get into a offensive resurgence, or should they stick with the old middle to upper middle pack of the conference? What is the ultimate floor/ceiling of this solid program?

A few things.

Wisconsin is the sole P5 football team in the state of Wisconsin. And Wisconsin isn't a huge population state, but it's bigger than Iowa and it's the only school in state. They get most every player in-state that they want. Stanley was an exception, and only happened due to Anderson not recruiting him and Stanley already being committed to Iowa by the time Chryst took over. In general, state of Wisconsin produces more Division I players annually than does Iowa.

Alvarez factor is also in play here. Through the coaching transitions, Alvarez has continued to have his imprint on how things are done there. Barry was a great coach and he continues to assert his influence over the program. That can be grating for some coaches (Bielema and Andersen both had to get out from under it) but Chryst seems perfectly fine with letting Barry provide his input on how the program is run and he can focus on the coaching.

All good things come to an end at some point. Here's hoping Iowa can dethrone the Badgers at top of West.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

A few things.

Wisconsin is the sole P5 football team in the state of Wisconsin. And Wisconsin isn't a huge population state, but it's bigger than Iowa and it's the only school in state. They get most every player in-state that they want. Stanley was an exception, and only happened due to Anderson not recruiting him and Stanley already being committed to Iowa by the time Chryst took over. In general, state of Wisconsin produces more Division I players annually than does Iowa.

Alvarez factor is also in play here. Through the coaching transitions, Alvarez has continued to have his imprint on how things are done there. Barry was a great coach and he continues to assert his influence over the program. That can be grating for some coaches (Bielema and Andersen both had to get out from under it) but Chryst seems perfectly fine with letting Barry provide his input on how the program is run and he can focus on the coaching.

All good things come to an end at some point. Here's hoping Iowa can dethrone the Badgers at top of West.

Good post. I'd add that Wisconsin has had a little bit of a defensive resurgence since they switched over to Dave Aranda's D. They assembled a really good set of defensive coaches, the players "bought in," and they've been able to bank on the subsequent inertia. Jim Leonhard, in retrospect, seems like a coaching up-and-comer ... so their D appears as if it will continue to be in pretty solid hands.

Iowa's D was at quite an elite level under the tutelage of Norm Parker. However, his failing health ended up leading to a little bit of an instability on our coaching staff ... and our D has struggled to regain the status that it once had under Norm.

 

[hawkandroll]

The answer with Wisky is PED's. Gordon would not have had a 400+ yd game at Iowa. Their O Line consistently averages 15 lbs heavier than ours.

Performance Enhancing Cheese

 

[cecilB]

A few things.

Wisconsin is the sole P5 football team in the state of Wisconsin. And Wisconsin isn't a huge population state, but it's bigger than Iowa and it's the only school in state. They get most every player in-state that they want. Stanley was an exception, and only happened due to Anderson not recruiting him and Stanley already being committed to Iowa by the time Chryst took over. In general, state of Wisconsin produces more Division I players annually than does Iowa.

Alvarez factor is also in play here. Through the coaching transitions, Alvarez has continued to have his imprint on how things are done there. Barry was a great coach and he continues to assert his influence over the program. That can be grating for some coaches (Bielema and Andersen both had to get out from under it) but Chryst seems perfectly fine with letting Barry provide his input on how the program is run and he can focus on the coaching.

All good things come to an end at some point. Here's hoping Iowa can dethrone the Badgers at top of West.

Alvarez was basically a .500 coach at Wisky. Look at his last five years if your in the camp of 'but, but he he to rebuild and the first years skew the record'. Many have been seduced by the mystique of a guy who commissioned a statue of himself.

He has proven to be a very effective AD in selecting coaches for his revenue generating sports.

There is a large sample size. Iowa and Wisky will likely continue to be a cyclical thing...with both resourced to expect annual contention.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

Alvarez was basically a .500 coach at Wisky. Look at his last five years if your in the camp of 'but, but he he to rebuild and the first years skew the record'. Many have been seduced by the mystique of a guy who commissioned a statue of himself.

He has proven to be a very effective AD in selecting coaches for his revenue generating sports.

There is a large sample size. Iowa and Wisky will likely continue to be a cyclical thing...with both resourced to expect annual contention.

You have to look at the Wisconsin program before Alvarez took over to appreciate what he did for their program. Wisconsin, under Alvarez, wasn't that terribly dissimilar from the Hawks under Ferentz. They'd intermittently land a mediocre season of 7-6 ..... only to turn it around a few seasons later and win 9 or 10+ wins. Of course, the biggest contrast is that Alvarez also led the Badgers to 3 Rose Bowl wins ... that's an outcome that has still eluded Ferentz.

 

[iowa surfer]

Wisconsin consistently gets better skill players than we do. Put Melvin Gordon in the gold & black and we would have won more games and Wisconsin would have lost more. Their running backs have been the difference.

No...Our Bosses love IOWA WAY More than wins.My opinion only.

 

[hawkfeever]

Wisconsin consistently gets better skill players than we do. Put Melvin Gordon in the gold & black and we would have won more games and Wisconsin would have lost more. Their running backs have been the difference.

And they have hit max jackpot on the walk ons that turned out to be studs.

 

[KujawaFan]

I believe as stated above it is a huge advantage to schools like Wiscy, Nebraska and Minny to only have 1 state school. While for example MSU is little brother to Michigan and ISU is red headed stepchild to Iowa, you still have more competition especially in a small state like Iowa. Plus, more of a chance family and/or friends of a recruit considering are ISU fans. Wisconsin, Nebraska and Minnesota are bigger states and the only D1 programs, they should dominate.

 

[EvilMonkeyInTheCloset]

I say disband Wisconsin and have their walk-ons transfer to Marquette as they bring back their football program at the FCS level. The rest can become dairy farmers and Green Bay fans. That sounds like punishment enough.

That should do the trick for getting Iowa back on top of the division.

 

[ichawk24]

The OP picked the most overachieving program in Wisconsin and asked "why hasn't Kirk done that?"

May as well have asked why Carmelo isn't as good as Lebron.

There are things Iowa can learn from Wisconsin, but the question is anchored wrong.

 

[DutchyFunStar]

You can compare Iowa and WI as programs but saying they are both low population states isn’t a sound argument. IA has 3.15 million people while WI is almost double that at 5.8 million. Heck, Milwaukee has a metro of 2 million and Madison is larger than DSM. Much larger instate recruiting backyard.

 

[cecilB]

You have to look at the Wisconsin program before Alvarez took over to appreciate what he did for their program. Wisconsin, under Alvarez, wasn't that terribly dissimilar from the Hawks under Ferentz. They'd intermittently land a mediocre season of 7-6 ..... only to turn it around a few seasons later and win 9 or 10+ wins. Of course, the biggest contrast is that Alvarez also led the Badgers to 3 Rose Bowl wins ... that's an outcome that has still eluded Ferentz.

Right on cue

 

[Wasnt-drunk-didnt-troll]

The answer is Barry Alvarez. He runs the show, the rest are moving parts. They lucked out with Leonard not missing a beat but the answer to the question is Barry Alvarez.

 

[ROCKY MOUNTAIN HAWK]

I believe as stated above it is a huge advantage to schools like Wiscy, Nebraska and Minny to only have 1 state school. While for example MSU is little brother to Michigan and ISU is red headed stepchild to Iowa, you still have more competition especially in a small state like Iowa. Plus, more of a chance family and/or friends of a recruit considering are ISU fans. Wisconsin, Nebraska and Minnesota are bigger states and the only D1 programs, they should dominate.

I’d say Mich is lil bro to Mich St. The last 10 years or so in fball & bball anyway.

 

[Wasnt-drunk-didnt-troll]

Again, it's amazing the reasons we can come up with on why every team has an advantage over Iowa.

Guarantee you this much, Hayden Fry wouldnt be ok with any of these reasons as to why they can do it and Iowa cant.

 

[ghostOfHomer777]

Again, it's amazing the reasons we can come up with on why every team has an advantage over Iowa.

I don't believe that it is unreasonable to suppose that some programs own inherent advantages over others. However, a question might concern the nature of those advantages and whether there is well-documented data to support the claims of some advantages.

For example, Illinois owns the benefit of enjoying favorable proximity to Chicago, St. Louis, and Indianapolis. Thus, it would make sense to contend that there are some inherent geographic advantages that might favor the Illini. However, on the flip side, the athletic department has been critically mismanaged at Illinois for some while now - thus, while this is feature is not "inherent"... it still is a factor that impacts their program. Also, the University of Illinois (UIUC) has quite a good academic reputation - particularly in technical fields (exemplary track-record in physics, engineering, and computer-science). On one hand, the academic reputation could be a selling point ... however, on the flip side, it may potentially give them a more strict admissions policy than Iowa (which could make it harder for them recruit and admit some players).

Also, how do we contextualize advantages and disadvantages? Shouldn't geographic advantages apply irrespective of the division of the program? For example, suppose we consider D1 FCS programs. There is an exceedingly strong culture of football in the south .... and similarly there is the perception that "speed guys" largely come from the south. This is why recruiters flock to the south and that is also why there is a perception that southern teams tend to hold a talent and/or speed advantage over their counterparts from other parts of the country. However, should this be true, then why have the likes of Montana and North Dakota State owned relative dynasties for periods at the D1 FCS level? Shouldn't their geography count against them?

I myself do believe that some of the arguments relating to advantages and disadvantages hold some merit. However, I also believe that programs can implement a variety of strategies, thereby finding particular "niches" that can still play to their favor. I believe that Iowa, like Wisconsin, is one of those programs that have found a strategy that they have found seems to work - and they consequently stick with it.

 

[bagdropper]

That's quite a first post.