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Fertility clinics destroy embryos all the time. Why aren’t conservatives after them?

cigaretteman

HB King
May 29, 2001
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By Margo Kaplan August 14 at 6:00 AM
Margo Kaplan is an associate professor at Rutgers Law School.

Last month, my husband and I signed forms donating an embryo we had conceived to medical research. Meanwhile, conservative Republicans are vowing to defund Planned Parenthood for allowing women who have abortions to make the same choice.

My husband and I used in vitro fertilization to conceive both our children. The process involved extracting my eggs, fertilizing them in a lab and implanting a healthy embryo inside me. Many patients — like my husband and me — produce more embryos (also called “pre-embryos” before they are implanted) than they can use. So clinics cryogenically freeze them until patients choose to use them in another IVF cycle, dispose of them, donate them to scientific research (which results in their destruction) or offer them to an infertile couple. After two years and careful thought, we chose to donate ours to research. We hope our choice will help doctors find cures for debilitating and fatal illnesses such as Huntington’s disease and ALS.

Like our fertility clinic, Planned Parenthood allows women to donate to medical research tissue from an embryo or fetus they will not carry to term. Like our clinic, Planned Parenthood receives no profit for this, only reimbursement for its costs (indeed, the full, unedited version of the video that sparked recent Republican outrage provides evidence that Planned Parenthood does not profit from giving women this choice).

Yet there are striking differences between my experience and that of a woman seeking an abortion. In Pennsylvania (where my fertility clinic is located), a woman seeking an abortion must receive state-directed counseling designed to discourage her from the procedure. She must then wait at least 24 hours until she can continue. In other states, women are forced to undergo unnecessary and invasive ultrasounds, watch or listen to a description of the ultrasound, and hear a lecture on how the embryo or fetus is a human life. Clinics in some states must provide them with medically inaccurate information on the risks of abortion. After all that, women often cannot have an abortion without waiting an additional one to three days, depending on the state.

In contrast, all my husband and I had to do was sign a form. Our competence to choose the outcome of our embryo was never questioned. There were no mandatory lectures on gestation, no requirement that I be explicitly told that personhood begins at conception or that I view a picture of a day-five embryo. There was no compulsory waiting period for me to reconsider my decision. In fact, no state imposes these restrictions — so common for abortion patients — on patients with frozen embryos. With rare exceptions, the government doesn’t interfere with an IVF patient’s choices except to resolve disagreements between couples.

The disparity between how the law treats abortion patients and IVF patients reveals an ugly truth about abortion restrictions: that they are often less about protecting life than about controlling women’s bodies. Both IVF and abortion involve the destruction of fertilized eggs that could potentially develop into people. But only abortion concerns women who have had sex that they don’t want to lead to childbirth. Abortion restrictions use unwanted pregnancy as a punishment for “irresponsible sex” and remind women of the consequences of being unchaste: If you didn’t want to endure a mandatory vaginal ultrasound , you shouldn’t have had sex in the first place .

If anti-choice lawmakers cared as much about protecting life as they did about women having sex, they could promote laws that prevent unwanted pregnancy. Yet the same conservatives who restrict abortion also oppose insurance coverage for contraception and comprehensive sexuality education. They view contraception, like abortion, as a “license” to have non-procreative sex. Women, GOP presidential candidate Mike Huckabee assures us, don’t need contraception — they just need to “control their libido.”

IVF patients make less-attractive targets because we don’t challenge the expectation that women want to be mothers. Abortion, on the other hand, thwarts conservative ideals about a woman’s proper role as a wife and mother. This may be why, counterintuitively, I have greater freedom to decide what to do with an embryo in a petri dish than a pregnancy in my own body.

This disparity also reveals a great deal about whose bodies our laws restrict. Unlike IVF patients, who are primarily wealthy and white, women who have abortions are disproportionately poor and women of color, groups it has always been popular to condemn and regulate. These women also bear the brunt of abortion restrictions far more than wealthy whites; for example, low-income women and women of color are more likely to use Medicaid for health expenses, and federal law prohibits that program from covering abortion. Mandatory wait periods increase their travel expenses and time away from jobs that often don’t give sick or personal days. It’s more than just patronizing for states to require women to take mandatory “think it over” time — it’s downright cruel to low-income women who must take more unpaid time off and, if the clinic isn’t close to home, either either find accommodations nearby or make the trip twice. Women must save money to pay for the procedure; the longer it takes to save, the more the pregnancy progresses, the more expensive the procedure becomes and the farther they must travel to find a clinic.

The law’s conflicting treatment of the two procedures is no coincidence: Anti-choice organizations have avoided targeting IVF even as they’ve sought radical restrictions on abortion access. Conservatives focus on legislation that facilitates embryo donation to other couples, rather than laws that limit the choices of IVF patients; they even take pains to deemphasize the impact of proposed “personhood amendments” on IVF. This distinction cannot be based on principle — if life begins at conception, then anti-choice groups have every reason to put the estimated 400,000 to 1 million frozen embryos in the United States at the forefront of their efforts. And while there are far more abortions every year than embryos destroyed, that’s an unlikely explanation for their focus: National Right to Life’s Web site also lists assisted suicide as a primary issue, and there have been fewer than 2,000 cases of legal assisted suicide in recent U.S. history.

It’s possible that anti-choice organizations are simply going after the more politically vulnerable group. If so, we need to take a hard look at why women who have abortions are so much easier to regulate than IVF patients. It’s telling that women who have unplanned pregnancies through sexual activity and who are disproportionately poor and minority are so much more open to attack.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...-9c033e6745d8_story.html?tid=trending_strip_1
 
I went out on a date with Margo Kaplan. She had a mustache and bad breath. I was never tempted to control her body.
 
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Here's the issue, and it's really simple. People who aren't in the liking of abortions, simply don't want to be forced to pay for it.

Personal responsibility, look it up.
 
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Having an abortion IS taking personal responsibility.
No, it's the decision you make after failing to take personal responsibility.
In extreme cases, then fine, do what you need to do. Most abortions aren't done because of those extreme cases. That's a lie that liberals try to convince people on why killing babies is okay.
Most abortions are done because humans and the brain trusts that they are, forget that getting came in results in conception.
 
No, it's the decision you make after failing to take personal responsibility.
In extreme cases, then fine, do what you need to do. Most abortions aren't done because of those extreme cases. That's a lie that liberals try to convince people on why killing babies is okay.
Most abortions are done because humans and the brain trusts that they are, forget that getting came in results in conception.
What lie do you tell yourself to justify killing babies? Because we all know you do justify it.
 
Do fertility clinics receive taxpayer funding?
No one wants to answer this question?

Conservatives want to defund Planned Parenthood. The implied message of this thread is that conservatives are hypocrites if they don't also go after fertility clinics. How can we defund fertility clinics if we're not funding them in the first place?

It seems like this thread concept is a non starter.
 
I thought one of the minor issues is that the videos showed Planned Parenthood selling baby parts without consent.
 
No one wants to answer this question?

Conservatives want to defund Planned Parenthood. The implied message of this thread is that conservatives are hypocrites if they don't also go after fertility clinics. How can we defund fertility clinics if we're not funding them in the first place?

It seems like this thread concept is a non starter.

Infertility is covered by many ACA plans, which means there would be subsidies going to the insurance companies. One of the items the GOP wants is a ban of subsidies for any policy that covers abortion.

And I dont think the funding even matters that much to the comparison. Many of the other examples were about laws on restrictions to abortions, not specifically PP. And we all know if the GOP could just start passing national laws restricting abortion, they wouldnt care about going after PP. So the comparison is abortion to infertility treatment. Not infertility clinics to PP.
 
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Infertility is covered by many ACA plans, which means there would be subsidies going to the insurance companies. One of the items the GOP wants is a ban of subsidies for any policy that covers abortion.

And I dont think the funding even matters that much to the comparison. Many of the other examples were about laws on restrictions to abortions, not specifically PP. And we all know if the GOP could just start passing national laws restricting abortion, they wouldnt care about going after PP. So the comparison is abortion to infertility treatment. Not infertility clinics to PP.
Your first statement does not answer his question as insurance and funding are not the same thing.

With PP being the leader in performing abortions they will be the focus.
 
Your first statement does not answer his question as insurance and funding are not the same thing.

With PP being the leader in performing abortions they will be the focus.

It is indirect funding, which is something they try to limit for abortions.
 
It is indirect funding, which is something they try to limit for abortions.
Many of the conservatives who want to defund Planned Parenthood are the same conservatives who want to defund the ACA. So in that regard they still are being consistent.
 
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Many of the conservatives who want to defund Planned Parenthood are the same conservatives who want to defund the ACA. So in that regard they still are being consistent.

That is a stretch. They want to defund fir different reasons. Either way, the funding is not important. Take away all federal funding to any abortion provider, would the pro-life be satisfied and consider their cause done?
 
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I may be reading this thread incorrectly but it seems to me that the prevailing line from some is that it's ok to kill a living being as long as tax payer money doesn't go towards it. ??????
Why do think that?

I think the pro life people in here want to have o tax payer money going to PP. The argument about the whole issue will never end because there is no middle ground.
 
Why do think that?

I think the pro life people in here want to have o tax payer money going to PP. The argument about the whole issue will never end because there is no middle ground.
Well there is for one side, it's where we are now with a moderately restrictive abortion policy in place.
 
Well there is for one side, it's where we are now with a moderately restrictive abortion policy in place.
Your side is happy because the policy is very much to your liking. You have your middle ground and you are happy with it. Any change to the current policy erupts in a full out offensive or in the case of the videos and PP a full out defensive.

Do you think either side would settle on abortions being legal in the first 13 weeks except in the case of incest, rape, or a problem pregnancy?
 
No one wants to answer this question?

Conservatives want to defund Planned Parenthood. The implied message of this thread is that conservatives are hypocrites if they don't also go after fertility clinics. How can we defund fertility clinics if we're not funding them in the first place?

It seems like this thread concept is a non starter.
I see University of Iowa hospitals does in vitro. Do you think they receive any government funding?
 
Your side is happy because the policy is very much to your liking. You have your middle ground and you are happy with it. Any change to the current policy erupts in a full out offensive or in the case of the videos and PP a full out defensive.

Do you think either side would settle on abortions being legal in the first 13 weeks except in the case of incest, rape, or a problem pregnancy?
Right, my side has accepted a middle ground position. My side isn't insisting on unrestricted abortions up to birth. We have compromised. Our opposition won't let that compromise stand.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking about 13 weeks, but that would have ruled out Ben Carson's fetal tissue business.
 
Point of her article missed in much of this thread. If you believe life begins when the sperm and the egg unite and that destruction of an embryo is murder, and you are activist and claim to be making moral objection to any such loss of life, why in the world do you not say anything about the million or so murders of embryos of the wealthy?

Interesting statement she made about having greater control of her embryo if it is in a dish than if it is in her womb.

And anybody click the link on the one exception to the In vitro embryo murders being ignored? Louisiana has this law:


§129. Destruction

A viable in vitro fertilized human ovum is a juridical person which shall not be intentionally destroyed by any natural or other juridical person or through the actions of any other such person. An in vitro fertilized human ovum that fails to develop further over a thirty-six hour period except when the embryo is in a state of cryopreservation, is considered non-viable and is not considered a juridical person.

Acts 1986, No. 964, §1.

hmmmm
 
I see University of Iowa hospitals does in vitro. Do you think they receive any government funding?
Fair enough. The UIHC certainly receives government funding. Of course, their services cover the entire spectrum of health care and IVF represents a very tiny percentage of those services. They charge a premium price for IVF, so I don't know that it's being subsidized much at all by government funding.

And even at that, we're still comparing apples and oranges. The Planned Parenthood videos, as I understand them, involved doctors offering to sell fully developed body parts (organs and tissue and such) from late-term abortions. When hospitals and clinics discard or donate unwanted IVF embryos, we're talking about microscopic pre-embryos that haven't even been implanted in a womb yet, much less developed into something that resembles a human being.
 
Infertility is covered by many ACA plans....
Is that true?

I disapprove. To me that's more like cosmetic surgery. Sure, I sympathize with you if you are ugly. And in some cases I would probably agree that such voluntary operations should be covered. A kid born badly disfigured. Someone disfigured in an accident. But you want liposuction so you can fit into your bathing suit? Fine. Just don't ask me to pay for it.

I feel sorry for people who want kids and can't conceive. But what's the argument for subsidizing expensive treatments? And, yes, the expense part does matter. We aren't talking about fundamental rights here. Or are we?
 
, we're talking about microscopic pre-embryos

Love the attempt to differentiate life into categories of "don't murder em!" embryos from "let em die!" pre-embryos. Murder by any other name would smell as sweet, eh Mr. Shakespeare?

If you believe this distinction is material, you are saying life is precious and deserving of protection from conception depending on where it is located. Same exact thing is life in a womb, despite being microscopic and not at all resembling anything human, but murder candidates if in a dish or freezer. Analogies with this reasoning could be fun.
 
When hospitals and clinics discard or donate unwanted IVF embryos, we're talking about microscopic pre-embryos that haven't even been implanted in a womb yet, much less developed into something that resembles a human being.
This is the problem with some arguments. Why is resemblance such a meaningful factor for many people?

Jesus-toast.jpg


It isn't really a person . . . until it is.
 
Right, my side has accepted a middle ground position. My side isn't insisting on unrestricted abortions up to birth. We have compromised. Our opposition won't let that compromise stand.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking about 13 weeks, but that would have ruled out Ben Carson's fetal tissue business.

That's a lie made up by the other side. He has put this issue to rest many times.

Second. Natural, have you ever watched an abortion or read EXACTLY what happens during an abortion in detail?
 
Sounds like the argument many use in defense of PP.
The difference is that in the case of the UIHC, it's actually true. The UIHC covers the entire spectrum of health care. PP is devoted exclusively to issues pertaining to the female reproductive system, and abortion represents a significant percentage of their services.

The UIHC offers cardiothoracic surgery. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers family medical care. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers opthalmology and visual care. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers pediatric care. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers radiation oncology. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers neonatal care. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers neurology and neurosurgery. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers psychiatric and psychological treatment. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers otolaryngology. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers dentistry and oral surgery. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers orthopedics and physical rehabilitation. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers labor and delivery. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers surgery and internal medicine and emergency medicine. Does Planned Parenthood?
 
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This is the problem with some arguments. Why is resemblance such a meaningful factor for many people?

Jesus-toast.jpg


It isn't really a person . . . until it is.
Does that slice of toast have a fully functional human circulatory system? Does it have a fully functional nervous system? Does it have actual human organs? Does it have an actual face and actual hands and actual feet?

Because if not then it's kind of a piss poor analogy.
 
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Love the attempt to differentiate life into categories of "don't murder em!" embryos from "let em die!" pre-embryos. Murder by any other name would smell as sweet, eh Mr. Shakespeare?

If you believe this distinction is material, you are saying life is precious and deserving of protection from conception depending on where it is located. Same exact thing is life in a womb, despite being microscopic and not at all resembling anything human, but murder candidates if in a dish or freezer. Analogies with this reasoning could be fun.
I for one see a clear distinction between a microscopic pre-embryo in a petri dish versus a growing fetus that has functional and distinguishable human body parts. I find it odd that you can't see the same distinction.
 
Fair enough. The UIHC certainly receives government funding. Of course, their services cover the entire spectrum of health care and IVF represents a very tiny percentage of those services. They charge a premium price for IVF, so I don't know that it's being subsidized much at all by government funding.

And even at that, we're still comparing apples and oranges. The Planned Parenthood videos, as I understand them, involved doctors offering to sell fully developed body parts (organs and tissue and such) from late-term abortions. When hospitals and clinics discard or donate unwanted IVF embryos, we're talking about microscopic pre-embryos that haven't even been implanted in a womb yet, much less developed into something that resembles a human being.
I don't care what else UIHC offers. They are killing babies and I don't want my tax dollars going to an organization that is in the business of killing babies. That funding should be redirected to organizations that don't kill babies.

And now that I think about it, I don't like my state tax dollars going to a place that kills babies. I think all state funding that goes to UofI should be redirect to ISU. We don't kill babies.
 
I for one see a clear distinction between a microscopic pre-embryo in a petri dish versus a growing fetus that has functional and distinguishable human body parts. I find it odd that you can't see the same distinction.

How bout a distinction between a microscopic pre-embryo in a petri dish vs that exact same embryo 5 seconds later? Life begins at implantation apparently.

Disingenuous to change it from microscopic embryo not resembling anything human in the womb to "growing fetus that has functional and distinguishable human body parts." If that is your approach, you are ok with abortion till about the 8th week or so, right?

Of course I see a clear distinction in a dish and a womb. Just like there is a clear distinction between an embryo the day after and a fetus in the 7th month. Point is, if the moral objection is centered upon sincere belief that life exists at point of conception, why are you abandoning and condoning murder of Petri-Americans?

Author's point continues to either evade you completely or cause you to throw up red herrings and disingenuous claims to avoid facing the cognitive dissonance of obvious moral hypocrisy.
 
The difference is that in the case of the UIHC, it's actually true. The UIHC covers the entire spectrum of health care. PP is devoted exclusively to issues pertaining to the female reproductive system, and abortion represents a significant percentage of their services.

The UIHC offers cardiothoracic surgery. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers family medical care. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers opthalmology and visual care. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers pediatric care. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers radiation oncology. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers neonatal care. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers neurology and neurosurgery. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers psychiatric and psychological treatment. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers otolaryngology. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers dentistry and oral surgery. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers orthopedics and physical rehabilitation. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers labor and delivery. Does Planned Parenthood?

The UIHC offers surgery and internal medicine and emergency medicine. Does Planned Parenthood?
Are you deliberately missing the point? Have you become one of those posters?

You said IVF was a small part of what UHIC does. Abortion is a small part of what PP does.

A laundry list with each point followed by the same disingenuous and irrelevant question doesn't alter that the part being criticized - the part that some might say should lead to defunding - is a small part of the function of each target. YOU are the one who made that point. I agree with it. I just pointed out that it applies to both.
 
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