Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief

[PBhawkeye]

What'd you think?

I thought it was well done. HBO is killing it with these types of shows.

I never new anything specific about scientology, but the information presented was pretty much what I expected. Good show. Reminded me a lot of Krakauer's 'expose' on Mormonism in his book "Under the Banner of Heaven"

 

[B1GDeal]

On my DVR... might get to it this week, but hope it's good.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

It's on tonight (again, I guess). Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

 

[Funky Bunch]

I watched. I feel sorry for the ones that were born into it.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Originally posted by Funky Bunch:
I watched. I feel sorry for the ones that were born into it.

Worst than other religions?

Most of us (I suspect) think Scientology is awfully screwy. But are the screwy things they believe really any screwier than the things believers in more traditional religion believe?

Imagine if, instead of variations on the Abrahamic religions dominating the world's believers it was variations on Scientology. And then someone started pushing the Trinity and the Pope and whatnot. Don't you think most believers in the dominant religions would be cracking up over the magic and the virgin birth and resurrection and so on? I mean Jesus had conversations with demons. Actual demons. Are demons and angels any more believable than the beings we hear about in Scientology?

 

[downtown hawk redux]

Originally posted by Funky Bunch:
I watched. I feel sorry for the ones that were born into it.

Yes, I think that, to me, was the ultimate sadness. Kids don't have any choice and to be indoctrinated as though that crap was normal to them seems almost a crime. I found most of the stuff they were doing disturbing. And Tom Cruise comes off like sociopath (so does the leader of the Church). I don't understand how a reasonable and critical thinking person could ever find themselves buying into all that bullsh*t.

Loved the Navy uniforms and the salutes though. Vets probably dig that aspect, huh?

 

[downtown hawk redux]

Originally posted by What Would Jesus Do?:

Originally posted by Funky Bunch:
I watched. I feel sorry for the ones that were born into it.

Worst than other religions?

Most of us (I suspect) think Scientology is awfully screwy. But are the screwy things they believe really any screwier than the things believers in more traditional religion believe?

Imagine if, instead of variations on the Abrahamic religions dominating the world's believers it was variations on Scientology. And then someone started pushing the Trinity and the Pope and whatnot. Don't you think most believers in the dominant religions would be cracking up over the magic and the virgin birth and resurrection and so on? I mean Jesus had conversations with demons. Actual demons. Are demons and angels any more believable than the beings we hear about in Scientology?

Sorry, WWJD, but yes. I'm not a real fan of most religions and the dogma that often goes with it, but whatever one thinks there are many churches who do good in the world and who provide at least a solid basis for living a good life. I'm not really religious myself and the hard core big churches devoted to money before everything else turn me off to no end, but this is nothing more than a cult to me. I would find it laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

 

[Hawk in SEC Country]

Originally posted by downtown hawk redux:

Originally posted by Funky Bunch:
I watched. I feel sorry for the ones that were born into it.

Yes, I think that, to me, was the ultimate sadness. Kids don't have any choice and to be indoctrinated as though that crap was normal to them seems almost a crime. I found most of the stuff they were doing disturbing. And Tom Cruise comes off like sociopath (so does the leader of the Church). I don't understand how a reasonable and critical thinking person could ever find themselves buying into all that bullsh*t.

Loved the Navy uniforms and the salutes though. Vets probably dig that aspect, huh?

what a bullshit comment.

 

[naturalmwa]

I was surprised to learn there are only 50k of them. The entire religion seems to be freudian psychotherapy conducted by untrained psychotherapists that charge a lot.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

What I took most from it, is how easily people are manipulated. You can call cynics arseholes all you want, but it pays to be cynical. Especially in a situation like this. Scientology starting all the way from it's creator has been corrupt, money hungry, and rather crazy in almost everyway. Yet people feverishly and foolishly follow it like it's the salvation of their lives.

The crowds at their gatherings were large and very enthusiastic, and the settings were well done production wise. You could see how people could be drawn into it. Regardless of that I can't understand how the people in attendance couldn't tell that it was a put on show, that was nothing more than just that, a show.

Hubbard himself was a lying, manipulative, greedy, mysoginistic, and abusive person. The stories that came from his ex-wife makes the fact that he pulled this off just that much more disturbing. The guy was a science fiction writer his entire life and he figured out how to use that skill to draw people in and basically make money based on lies and nothing more.

The new guy in charge was maybe even more creepy, especially when they talked about how he basically stalked Tom Cruise and manipulated his marriage to Nicole Kidman.

Tom Cruise is now forever gone in my eyes. He is a person who does NOT need something like this. Yet, there he is, joining in the madness. He should have stayed with Kidman, whom it was said was trying to separate him from the 'church'.

This post was edited on 3/31 11:52 AM by Aegon_Targaryen

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

Originally posted by naturalmwa:
I was surprised to learn there are only 50k of them. The entire religion seems to be freudian psychotherapy conducted by untrained psychotherapists that charge a lot.

I was too, it was at least refreshing to see that many of their members had woken up and cut loose from it. Not so refreshing to see how they were stalked and harassed for doing so.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Originally posted by downtown hawk redux:

Originally posted by What Would Jesus Do?:

Originally posted by Funky Bunch:
I watched. I feel sorry for the ones that were born into it.

Worst than other religions?

Most of us (I suspect) think Scientology is awfully screwy. But are the screwy things they believe really any screwier than the things believers in more traditional religion believe?

Imagine if, instead of variations on the Abrahamic religions dominating the world's believers it was variations on Scientology. And then someone started pushing the Trinity and the Pope and whatnot. Don't you think most believers in the dominant religions would be cracking up over the magic and the virgin birth and resurrection and so on? I mean Jesus had conversations with demons. Actual demons. Are demons and angels any more believable than the beings we hear about in Scientology?

Sorry, WWJD, but yes. I'm not a real fan of most religions and the dogma that often goes with it, but whatever one thinks there are many churches who do good in the world and who provide at least a solid basis for living a good life. I'm not really religious myself and the hard core big churches devoted to money before everything else turn me off to no end, but this is nothing more than a cult to me. I would find it laughable if it wasn't so tragic.

I wasn't talking about whether religions or their adherents do good. Some help the poor, some behead them or burn them at the stake. I was talking about whether the beliefs of Scientologists are any screwier than the beliefs found in other religions - or whether they merely seem screwier because we are familiar with the franchises we grew up with.

 

[Tom Paris]

I did laugh out loud when the Hollywood producer guy reacted to the actual story one reads when he reached Level 3. Also the lady talking about studying geography and realizing volcanoes were not 75 billion years old.

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

I just found this article about the current ring leader of Scientology, David Miscavige and his missing wife.



There is lot of unsettling information when it comes to the Church of Scientology, all of which is explored in Alex Gibney's latest documentary, "Going Clear: Scientology and the Prison of Belief." But there's one story that was left out of Gibney's film, which premiered this past Sunday on HBO: Where is Michele "Shelly" Miscavige?

Miscavige is the wife of the Church's current leader, David Miscavige, and member of the Church's Sea Organization (Sea Org). According to Lawrence Wright's book on which Gibney's film is based, she disappeared in June 2006and has not been seen publicly seen August 2007. Her official whereabouts are still unknown.

Oh, it gets better.

 

[YellowSnow51]

I loved when they showed Dianetics on the NYT best sellers list. 3 of the 10 books were Gary Larson "Far Side" books. Sweet!

 

[downtown hawk redux]

Originally posted by Hawk in SEC Country:

Originally posted by downtown hawk redux:

Originally posted by Funky Bunch:
I watched. I feel sorry for the ones that were born into it.

Yes, I think that, to me, was the ultimate sadness. Kids don't have any choice and to be indoctrinated as though that crap was normal to them seems almost a crime. I found most of the stuff they were doing disturbing. And Tom Cruise comes off like sociopath (so does the leader of the Church). I don't understand how a reasonable and critical thinking person could ever find themselves buying into all that bullsh*t.

Loved the Navy uniforms and the salutes though. Vets probably dig that aspect, huh?

what a bullshit comment.

SEC, you need to learn what real sarcasm looks like before you knee jerk. I thought my disdain for it was rather obvious that it didn't require an emoticon.

I'm sorry maybe I should have include an illustration or a funny photo, but no, it was a comment born out my absolute utter disgust for them. Read the effing post again. I thought based on what I said previously would make that obvious.

 

[naturalmwa]

Originally posted by downtown hawk redux:

Originally posted by Hawk in SEC Country:

Originally posted by downtown hawk redux:

Originally posted by Funky Bunch:
I watched. I feel sorry for the ones that were born into it.

Yes, I think that, to me, was the ultimate sadness. Kids don't have any choice and to be indoctrinated as though that crap was normal to them seems almost a crime. I found most of the stuff they were doing disturbing. And Tom Cruise comes off like sociopath (so does the leader of the Church). I don't understand how a reasonable and critical thinking person could ever find themselves buying into all that bullsh*t.

Loved the Navy uniforms and the salutes though. Vets probably dig that aspect, huh?

what a bullshit comment.

SEC, you need to learn what real sarcasm looks like before you knee jerk. I thought my disdain for it was rather obvious that it didn't require an emoticon.

I'm sorry maybe I should have include an illustration or a funny photo, but no, it was a comment born out my absolute utter disgust for them. Read the effing post again. I thought based on what I said previously would make that obvious.

Fun reaction gifs should be used more by all posters.

 

[INXS83]

It's no wonder Katie Holmes decided to run for the door. Too bad she didn't see it before marrying Tom.

I always thought Tom kind of lived in his own little world. Now we know why.

I doubt Cruise or Travolta get out of there alive now. Too much at stake.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Originally posted by INXS83:
It's no wonder Katie Holmes decided to run for the door. Too bad she didn't see it before marrying Tom.

I always thought Tom kind of lived in his own little world. Now we know why.

I doubt Cruise or Travolta get out of there alive now. Too much at stake.

She coulda had me. Clearly there's something wrong with her.

Kelly Preston coulda had me, too.

If I could pull like that by becoming a Scientologist, I'd have to seriously consider it.

 

[DrVenkman]

Originally posted by What Would Jesus Do?:

Originally posted by Funky Bunch:
I watched. I feel sorry for the ones that were born into it.

Worst than other religions?

Most of us (I suspect) think Scientology is awfully screwy. But are the screwy things they believe really any screwier than the things believers in more traditional religion believe?

Imagine if, instead of variations on the Abrahamic religions dominating the world's believers it was variations on Scientology. And then someone started pushing the Trinity and the Pope and whatnot. Don't you think most believers in the dominant religions would be cracking up over the magic and the virgin birth and resurrection and so on? I mean Jesus had conversations with demons. Actual demons. Are demons and angels any more believable than the beings we hear about in Scientology?

I just watched this show this am. I admittedly knew very little about Scientology going into watching this.

I can not remember the last time I was this stunned by a what I was watching and hearing. This is not a religion in any form. It is a doctrine, i guess. They do have a life plan that people are supposed to live by. I guess it is debateable, the lengths that Scientology goes to in order to control their members lives and who is allowed in the 'club'. But this is pure sinisterism. if that is a word. Even the long-time members can not describe what the true beliefs or tenets are of Scientology- what the actual virtues are.?

They torture people, lock them up, take their children from them all while making them engage in elaborate and continuous documented 'auditing', which is their sick form of confession. Seemingly only for the sole purpose of being able to black-mail members and control them. Later on when they actually get to the level in the pyramid of learning that this religion was started by a cosmic being named Xenu who came from another planet on spaceships to collect bodies of earth people and dump them on volcanos. etc etc etc.. just wow.

I agree that comparing the language used to describe the beings that invade the babies bodies are similar to being born with original sin and there are other aspects, like a pope, or demons or all the other celestial crap that embodies a 'formal religion' but the extent to which scientology controls and then attempts to ruin peoples lives who try to reveal what is actually happening is where this documentary could make a real impact.

 

[LuteHawk]

Hubbard wanted to start a religion that appealed
to the rich and wealthy. He was a con-man who
took their money, Only millionaires can afford
this Scientology religion which was made up by
a science fiction writer.

Bottom Line: Members of this cult are gullible.
A fool and his money are soon parted.

 

[Chuck C]

It's scary the amount of money they have amassed. I wonder if all the real estate they have been buying up all over the place falls under tax exempt status also.

 

[LuteHawk]

Church property and buildings are tax exempt
as a non-for-profit organization.

 

[rchawk]

Originally posted by What Would Jesus Do?:

Originally posted by INXS83:
It's no wonder Katie Holmes decided to run for the door. Too bad she didn't see it before marrying Tom.

I always thought Tom kind of lived in his own little world. Now we know why.

I doubt Cruise or Travolta get out of there alive now. Too much at stake.

She coulda had me. Clearly there's something wrong with her.

Kelly Preston coulda had me, too.

If I could pull like that by becoming a Scientologist, I'd have to seriously consider it.

I'll take Leah Remini for a thousand, Alex.

She's hot and she quit

 

[Tom Paris]

Originally posted by rchawk:

Originally posted by What Would Jesus Do?:

Originally posted by INXS83:
It's no wonder Katie Holmes decided to run for the door. Too bad she didn't see it before marrying Tom.

I always thought Tom kind of lived in his own little world. Now we know why.

I doubt Cruise or Travolta get out of there alive now. Too much at stake.

She coulda had me. Clearly there's something wrong with her.

Kelly Preston coulda had me, too.

If I could pull like that by becoming a Scientologist, I'd have to seriously consider it.

I'll take Leah Remini for a thousand, Alex.

She's not hot anymore. She's a fat smoker. Gross.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Originally posted by DrVenkman:

Originally posted by What Would Jesus Do?:

Originally posted by Funky Bunch:
I watched. I feel sorry for the ones that were born into it.

Worst than other religions?

Most of us (I suspect) think Scientology is awfully screwy. But are the screwy things they believe really any screwier than the things believers in more traditional religion believe?

Imagine if, instead of variations on the Abrahamic religions dominating the world's believers it was variations on Scientology. And then someone started pushing the Trinity and the Pope and whatnot. Don't you think most believers in the dominant religions would be cracking up over the magic and the virgin birth and resurrection and so on? I mean Jesus had conversations with demons. Actual demons. Are demons and angels any more believable than the beings we hear about in Scientology?

I just watched this show this am. I admittedly knew very little about Scientology going into watching this.

I can not remember the last time I was this stunned by a what I was watching and hearing. This is not a religion in any form. It is a doctrine, i guess. They do have a life plan that people are supposed to live by. I guess it is debateable, the lengths that Scientology goes to in order to control their members lives and who is allowed in the 'club'. But this is pure sinisterism. if that is a word. Even the long-time members can not describe what the true beliefs or tenets are of Scientology- what the actual virtues are.?

They torture people, lock them up, take their children from them all while making them engage in elaborate and continuous documented 'auditing', which is their sick form of confession. Seemingly only for the sole purpose of being able to black-mail members and control them. Later on when they actually get to the level in the pyramid of learning that this religion was started by a cosmic being named Xenu who came from another planet on spaceships to collect bodies of earth people and dump them on volcanos. etc etc etc.. just wow.

I agree that comparing the language used to describe the beings that invade the babies bodies are similar to being born with original sin and there are other aspects, like a pope, or demons or all the other celestial crap that embodies a 'formal religion' but the extent to which scientology controls and then attempts to ruin peoples lives who try to reveal what is actually happening is where this documentary could make a real impact.

Now that I've seen it I may have to agree that Scientology is even screwier than other religions. I mean it takes a lot to beat angels and demons, eternal Hell, the Great Flood, and Jesus riding dinosaurs, but some of that Scientology crap was waaay out there.


This post was edited on 4/3 9:43 AM by What Would Jesus Do?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Just one thought. This was clearly an attack piece. And it certainly seems justified to attack this cancer. But we've only heard the attack side.

You could make Islam or Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism seem just as vicious and just as screwy if you wanted to. And some people have done just that. The difference is that there are millions and sometimes billions of people who like those major religions and will simply dismiss the attacks as wrong or distorted or focusing on errors of the past or whatever.

It's hard to imagine dismissing the criticisms of Scientology so blithely, but if you were in that circle of believers - and protected from meaningful dissent, as all religions tend to protect their flocks from meaningful dissent - it would probably look very different.

 

[Tom Paris]

Originally posted by What Would Jesus Do?:
Just one thought. This was clearly an attack piece. And it certainly seems justified to attack this cancer. But we've only heard the attack side.

You could make Islam or Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism seem just as vicious and just as screwy if you wanted to. And some people have done just that. The difference is that there are millions and sometimes billions of people who like those major religions and will simply dismiss the attacks as wrong or distorted or focusing on errors of the past or whatever.

It's hard to imagine dismissing the criticisms of Scientology so blithely, but if you were in that circle of believers - and protected from meaningful dissent, as all religions tend to protect their flocks from meaningful dissent - it would probably look very different.

The difference is with this piece...we got to hear from the disciples. People that were right next to, and doing the bidding of Scientology's Jesus, and then Jesus' replacement.

 

[naturalmwa]

Originally posted by What Would Jesus Do?:
Just one thought. This was clearly an attack piece. And it certainly seems justified to attack this cancer. But we've only heard the attack side.

You could make Islam or Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism seem just as vicious and just as screwy if you wanted to. And some people have done just that. The difference is that there are millions and sometimes billions of people who like those major religions and will simply dismiss the attacks as wrong or distorted or focusing on errors of the past or whatever.

It's hard to imagine dismissing the criticisms of Scientology so blithely, but if you were in that circle of believers - and protected from meaningful dissent, as all religions tend to protect their flocks from meaningful dissent - it would probably look very different.

Most religions don't claim to have invented themselves. Most claim to be revealed from some higher power. I didn't see where Hubbard got the Xenu story. It seemed from the movie that they admitted he just invented it. That seems a pretty big point if you ask people to believe in a mythology, but don't claim any higher power other than yourself. Did I miss a theological point?