HS off-season restrictions

[Huck]

I need your help guys. About to do battle with our state organization over hs off season practice restrictions.
Can someone tell me what restrictions your high school coaches have in regards to working with their athletes in the spring and fall?
And if there is anyone that visits this board from another state, could you please give me the restrictions your coaches have to abide by.

Many thanks in advance!!!

I'll just outline MO's restrictions in a nutshell.
You can't have any contact with your kids in the fall or spring....NONE!!
We get 20 days of contact during the summer.

 

[artradley]

Same in NJ.

 

[artradley]

Here's the thing. If you're allowed to have "voluntary" practice off season it opens it up to coaches who will punish players who don't attend.

 

[Huck]

So where / how do these guys get mat time out of season? Do they all pay to go to a club like Young Guns? And does this mean all NJ high school coaches aren't involved in wrestling besides when the season starts? Thanks for the info.

 

[Jaybird319]

http://www.iahsaa.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/2016-17-Wrestling-Regular-Season-Manual.pdf


Main points beging on page 5. Good luck

 

[woodsiding]

Here's the thing. If you're allowed to have "voluntary" practice off season it opens it up to coaches who will punish players who don't attend.

Then only kids who can afford clubs get off season opportunities.

 

[crablegs1]

I’m pretty sure Iowa is the same. When I was in high school, I don’t think many of the top coaches followed the rule and it wasn’t a problem.

Now it does seem like there are many more clubs that aren’t coaches by the high school coaches and kids are going to those.

Penalized the kids that want to get better which is a shame.

 

[CowboyUp61]

OKLA rule.

B. SEASON AND ALLOWED SCHEDULE 1. The collegiate style wrestling (this style is sanctioned and governed by the OSSAA) season shall open on the third full weekend in November. A weekend is Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. The opening date for the 2017-2018 season will be November 16, 2017. 2. The collegiate style wrestling season for member schools, school personnel, and wrestlers shall close with the state championship tournament. An individual who has represented his school in collegiate style wrestling during the current season shall not represent his school in that sport after the season closes. Students may participate unattached and school personnel may coach.

 

[artradley]

Then only kids who can afford clubs get off season opportunities.

Well, if there weren't dick coaches who penalized kids who don't perform "voluntary" off-season practices such rules wouldn't be needed.

The fact is, really good coaching is primarily coming from clubs. You're going to get much better training, and much better partners, at a club that draws from a wide area than from simply extending your hs season with the same coaches and same partners you have in the winter. And it's even more important to get private lessons from former college wrestlers. And if you really want to get good, you spend the big $$$ on a private school that recruits the best wrestlers, so you're getting top competition all through the winter.

No question, it's becoming a rich man's sport. As are almost all sports these days. But l don't think letting hs coaches conduct practices off-season would help that.

 

[CowboyUp61]

Well, if there weren't dick coaches who penalized kids who don't perform "voluntary" off-season practices such rules wouldn't be needed.

The fact is, really good coaching is primarily coming from clubs. You're going to get much better training, and much better partners, at a club that draws from a wide area than from simply extending your hs season with the same coaches and same partners you have in the winter. And it's even more important to get private lessons from former college wrestlers. And if you really want to get good, you spend the big $$$ on a private school that recruits the best wrestlers, so you're getting top competition all through the winter.

No question, it's becoming a rich man's sport. As are almost all sports these days. But l don't think letting hs coaches conduct practices off-season would help that.

Co-op. Several schools rotate holding practices. Different partners, different coaching. Bring in some college wrestlers (or ex) to coach and teach.

 

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

Well, if there weren't dick coaches who penalized kids who don't perform "voluntary" off-season practices such rules wouldn't be needed.

The fact is, really good coaching is primarily coming from clubs. You're going to get much better training, and much better partners, at a club that draws from a wide area than from simply extending your hs season with the same coaches and same partners you have in the winter. And it's even more important to get private lessons from former college wrestlers. And if you really want to get good, you spend the big $$$ on a private school that recruits the best wrestlers, so you're getting top competition all through the winter.

No question, it's becoming a rich man's sport. As are almost all sports these days. But l don't think letting hs coaches conduct practices off-season would help that.

How do you punish kids who don't attend voluntary off season practices in wrestling?

I don't think it's much of a problem.

This isn't football where coaches can play favorites and the better player isn't clear cut.

In wrestling, the better guy gets the varsity spot with few exceptions.

 

[NEHawkiFan]

Here is Nebraska's rule:

3.2.3 Organized Practice. No organized practice in any sport shall be held during the school year between the close of a season of a sport and the opening day of practice for that sport the following school year. An organized practice shall be defined as:

a. Wrestling. An organized practice shall mean more than four wrestlers under direct supervision of a sponsor. If more than one group is practicing at the same time, it shall be called an organized practice.

 

[artradley]

How do you punish kids who don't attend voluntary off season practices in wrestling?

I don't think it's much of a problem.

This isn't football where coaches can play favorites and the better player isn't clear cut.

In wrestling, the better guy gets the varsity spot with few exceptions.

It happens. You can push guys into sub-optimal weight classes, if two guys are close give the starting spot to the guy you like better, etc. I know this from personal experience, and from anecdotes from others. My son's former HS coach is a miserable human being and absolute control freak. The team has never been good, so he doesn't have the pressure of worrying about success on the mat; instead it's a little fiefdom he controls in which parents and wrestlers are made to pay homage in hopes of fair treatment.

My son was fortunate in that he had a secure spot all four years, but he was made to pay in other ways. And there were kids who should have been starting but who "lost" wrestle-offs (conducted in private) and starters who were driven off the team. We used to joke that if we put together a team of kids who quit they could beat the team we put on the mat.

If this guy had been allowed, wrestling would have been twelve months of jumping through every hoop that he placed in front of you. None of it designed to turn any kid into a better wrestler, but rather simply to demonstrate the coach's power over them.

Kids need to have a break from the sport, if that's their choice. At the very least, they should be allowed to have a break from their HS coach.

 

[FrontHeadlock2]

Well, if there weren't dick coaches who penalized kids who don't perform "voluntary" off-season practices such rules wouldn't be needed.

The fact is, really good coaching is primarily coming from clubs. You're going to get much better training, and much better partners, at a club that draws from a wide area than from simply extending your hs season with the same coaches and same partners you have in the winter. And it's even more important to get private lessons from former college wrestlers. And if you really want to get good, you spend the big $$$ on a private school that recruits the best wrestlers, so you're getting top competition all through the winter.

No question, it's becoming a rich man's sport. As are almost all sports these days. But l don't think letting hs coaches conduct practices off-season would help that.

Of course this also allows many more people to make a living in wrestling...

 

[Coach Mac B]

In cases where club costs can be prohibitive, some areas have a "club" that is nothing more than a parent or other community member donating some time to coach enough just to kids mat time. Kids and parents go together to get the volunteer a nice gift card for their time. It's not perfect but it can work to get the kids time.

 

[AFHawk86]

Here is Nebraska's rule:

3.2.3 Organized Practice. No organized practice in any sport shall be held during the school year between the close of a season of a sport and the opening day of practice for that sport the following school year. An organized practice shall be defined as:

a. Wrestling. An organized practice shall mean more than four wrestlers under direct supervision of a sponsor. If more than one group is practicing at the same time, it shall be called an organized practice.

Guess that depends on the definition of sponsor.

 

[IRONBIRD]

I need your help guys. About to do battle with our state organization over hs off season practice restrictions.
Can someone tell me what restrictions your high school coaches have in regards to working with their athletes in the spring and fall?
And if there is anyone that visits this board from another state, could you please give me the restrictions your coaches have to abide by.

Many thanks in advance!!!

I'll just outline MO's restrictions in a nutshell.
You can't have any contact with your kids in the fall or spring....NONE!!
We get 20 days of contact during the summer.

They have rules in NY too. What they are exactly? well your guess is as good as mine!

The main thing is, do you and your team have the support of the administration? If so then there are many ways around whatever rules are in place!

Many here on LI have "open Mats" where anyone can come. Some run camps and charge a few bucks. Others do whatever they want. like I said, depends on if you have the support.

For those that say, "the coach could hold not attending against the kids" I find that mainly as a bad excuse. Most teams that are very good, regardless of sport, are putting in a lot of extra time.

Those that do not care, don't want to put in the time etc... They use the restrictions as an excuse why they aren't doing what the better teams are!

Good luck to you!

 

[artradley]

They have rules in NY too. What they are exactly? well your guess is as good as mine!

The main thing is, do you and your team have the support of the administration? If so then there are many ways around whatever rules are in place!

Many here on LI have "open Mats" where anyone can come. Some run camps and charge a few bucks. Others do whatever they want. like I said, depends on if you have the support.

For those that say, "the coach could hold not attending against the kids" I find that mainly as a bad excuse. Most teams that are very good, regardless of sport, are putting in a lot of extra time.

Those that do not care, don't want to put in the time etc... They use the restrictions as an excuse why they aren't doing what the better teams are!

Good luck to you!

You're not getting my point. Let's say you have two choices for off-season:

* Attend local clubs 3 or 4 nights a week, combined with an occasional private practice, while competing in events perhaps once a month. All this involves being with some of the best coaches and best training partners in the state.

* Go to your local HS "open mats" filled with and a group of kids who, while friends of yours, generally aren't very good; led by a couple of coaches who never wrestled. Sessions that never last more than an hour and a half and mainly consist of playing dodgeball.

Now, you're a good wrestler who wants to get better. Do you pick one or the other? Do you attend every HS event knowing you're going to miss most of the other opportunities? Do you go to most of the other opportunities and miss most of your HS? And if you chose the route that is absolutely the best for making you a better wrestler, should the coach hold that against you? Are you a "lesser" teammate because of it?

This is the reality. Note you included the words "most teams that are very good", which is an important qualifier. What about the majority of teams that aren't very good?

[EDIT]
And, btw, what if a kid really doesn't want to spend the off-season wrestling. Maybe they do other sports, have a job, or have other responsibilities. But they can still whip anybody else at their weight. Shouldn't they still be varsity? Should't the coaches respect that decision? Shouldn't we all?

 

[Is_there_vodka_in_heaven]

It happens. You can push guys into sub-optimal weight classes, if two guys are close give the starting spot to the guy you like better, etc. I know this from personal experience, and from anecdotes from others. My son's former HS coach is a miserable human being and absolute control freak. The team has never been good, so he doesn't have the pressure of worrying about success on the mat; instead it's a little fiefdom he controls in which parents and wrestlers are made to pay homage in hopes of fair treatment.

My son was fortunate in that he had a secure spot all four years, but he was made to pay in other ways. And there were kids who should have been starting but who "lost" wrestle-offs (conducted in private) and starters who were driven off the team. We used to joke that if we put together a team of kids who quit they could beat the team we put on the mat.

If this guy had been allowed, wrestling would have been twelve months of jumping through every hoop that he placed in front of you. None of it designed to turn any kid into a better wrestler, but rather simply to demonstrate the coach's power over them.

Kids need to have a break from the sport, if that's their choice. At the very least, they should be allowed to have a break from their HS coach.

It sounds like the problem with that coach isn't really an issue with off-season work-out rules. Sounds like that coach is going to be shit no matter what the rule is.

For 99% of coaches and athletes, allowing off-season practices is a good thing. Why would you be in favor of limiting the amount of time a coach can volunteer to work with the hs wrestlers? They aren't making a fortune doing this.

If a hs wrestler wants to wrestle in the off-season, and the coaches want to coach them, we should be in favor of rules allowing this.

Net positive hands down.

 

[artradley]

It sounds like the problem with that coach isn't really an issue with off-season work-out rules. Sounds like that coach is going to be shit no matter what the rule is.

For 99% of coaches and athletes, allowing off-season practices is a good thing. Why would you be in favor of limiting the amount of time a coach can volunteer to work with the hs wrestlers? They aren't making a fortune doing this.

If a hs wrestler wants to wrestle in the off-season, and the coaches want to coach them, we should be in favor of rules allowing this.

Net positive hands down.

Well, you're right that a shit coach is going to be a shit coach either way. But I'm pretty sure that is the rationale for the rules; so coaches can't force kids to participate in anything outside of the specified season. It's a case of the bad guys ruin it for everybody.

 

[PapaBearSLIM]

Me hearing about "offseason contact rules" with a car full of kids on my way to practice

 

[CowboyUp61]

T

Well, you're right that a shit coach is going to be a shit coach either way. But I'm pretty sure that is the rationale for the rules; so coaches can't force kids to participate in anything outside of the specified season. It's a case of the bad guys ruin it for everybody.

the rationale I heard growing up is so that coaches can't force the kids to not play other sports by forcing them to attend offseason practices.

 

[Huck]

Thanks for all the discussion. And PapaBear...what's the IL contact rules?

Here's my situation guys. And I get the purpose of the rule (I suppose), that restricting contact allows kids to "play" other sports. And I'm not discounting artradley's examples/experience as I'm sure there are some that happen. But I have been involved with a club involving 5-7 high school coaches that pool all our kids together and run a practice twice a week at night. Then we all travel to the FS/Greco stuff during the spring. We all coach everyone in practices and at tournaments, none of us get paid. We just get the chance to have a full room (instead of 3-6 guys each) and our kids get to be coached by other good coaches. In the "culture" at my school (and from what I know the culture at the others) is that everyone encourages their kids to play other sports but if you're not in a sport (or if you want to attend after your practice) and you want to get better....here's a chance for you. Sure I'd love for all my kids to attend but it's on "them" if they want to get better. Now it seems our HS association is putting out a warning that this "contact" has to stop.
To me this just doesn't make sense, kids are asking to get better and I'm going to have to turn them away I suppose. And honestly, we'll probably be able to snag a college kid to come in here and help us out but I'm thinking more of the kids in the more rural areas where this isn't going to be a possibility. I mean in our rules the HS coach can't even be in the room, even if he's just there to open it up and not even coach.
As someone stated, here we are again penalizing everyone because of one or two bad apples....takes all the fn f*n out of it.

 

[IRONBIRD]

You're not getting my point. Let's say you have two choices for off-season:

* Attend local clubs 3 or 4 nights a week, combined with an occasional private practice, while competing in events perhaps once a month. All this involves being with some of the best coaches and best training partners in the state.

* Go to your local HS "open mats" filled with and a group of kids who, while friends of yours, generally aren't very good; led by a couple of coaches who never wrestled. Sessions that never last more than an hour and a half and mainly consist of playing dodgeball.

Now, you're a good wrestler who wants to get better. Do you pick one or the other? Do you attend every HS event knowing you're going to miss most of the other opportunities? Do you go to most of the other opportunities and miss most of your HS? And if you chose the route that is absolutely the best for making you a better wrestler, should the coach hold that against you? Are you a "lesser" teammate because of it?

This is the reality. Note you included the words "most teams that are very good", which is an important qualifier. What about the majority of teams that aren't very good?

[EDIT]
And, btw, what if a kid really doesn't want to spend the off-season wrestling. Maybe they do other sports, have a job, or have other responsibilities. But they can still whip anybody else at their weight. Shouldn't they still be varsity? Should't the coaches respect that decision? Shouldn't we all?

I am not arguing any of this. I was a 3 sport guy. My Lax Coach would bust my balls for wrestling during the spring season. He was wrong to do it! The athletes should be free to choose the path that they think is best for them.

As someone stated. Some sh*t coaches could ruin it for everybody! That is the same in all areas though, and should not be a reason for coaches who want to do extra, can't!

Quality coaches will encourage kids to go the extra mile! They will also know their kids and should be able to guide them in a positive way.

I will give an example of 2 athletes who wrestled for me. Both going into SR. year. 1 was a returning County finalist. He was my top wrestler coming back. They(friends and coaches) asked him to play Football his SR. year. He had not played in many years and came to me.

I asked him if he wanted to play? He was not sure. I told him to think it over and make a decision. I will support whatever you choose! He decided to play and helped the team have its best year in a long time!

The 2nd kid was the top 177 returning in the County. The day of sign ups, he was not there. When I tracked him down, he said he was not wrestling! I asked why, and he said he wanted to concentrate on Baseball!

The Baseball coach told him NOT TO WRESTLE!!! Started "gasing" his head about a Baseball scholarship and who knows what else? which never came!

Now the 177 was one of the Captains of the Football team. He was also one of the top Partners for the other Wrestler who came out to help the Football team! One kid stepped up! The other in my opinion, Let his friend and teammate down and got screwed by a bad coach!

 

[artradley]

Thanks for all the discussion. And PapaBear...what's the IL contact rules?

Here's my situation guys. And I get the purpose of the rule (I suppose), that restricting contact allows kids to "play" other sports. And I'm not discounting artradley's examples/experience as I'm sure there are some that happen. But I have been involved with a club involving 5-7 high school coaches that pool all our kids together and run a practice twice a week at night. Then we all travel to the FS/Greco stuff during the spring. We all coach everyone in practices and at tournaments, none of us get paid. We just get the chance to have a full room (instead of 3-6 guys each) and our kids get to be coached by other good coaches. In the "culture" at my school (and from what I know the culture at the others) is that everyone encourages their kids to play other sports but if you're not in a sport (or if you want to attend after your practice) and you want to get better....here's a chance for you. Sure I'd love for all my kids to attend but it's on "them" if they want to get better. Now it seems our HS association is putting out a warning that this "contact" has to stop.
To me this just doesn't make sense, kids are asking to get better and I'm going to have to turn them away I suppose. And honestly, we'll probably be able to snag a college kid to come in here and help us out but I'm thinking more of the kids in the more rural areas where this isn't going to be a possibility. I mean in our rules the HS coach can't even be in the room, even if he's just there to open it up and not even coach.
As someone stated, here we are again penalizing everyone because of one or two bad apples....takes all the fn f*n out of it.

That's exactly the position a lot of kids and coaches are in -- the rules forbid it. And, unfortunately, the rules serve a purpose. As I said, with more and more kids doing a sport year round it is definitely elevating the quality of all sports. On the other hand, it's coming at the expense of JV teams, the ability of kids to enjoy multiple sports, and the concentration of talent migrating more and more towards kids whose parents have a lot of money. And as you point out it hurts kids in rural areas who don't have access to clubs even if they have the money. It's a situation that I'm not real happy with.

Ignoring the large picture, and concentrating on your individual picture, I suspect your best case is to separate yourselves by getting volunteer coaches who aren't on staff. If you coaches organize it and promote it to your team you've done most of the work. To good thing about wrestling is that with the number of colleges being tiny compared to the number of high schools, and with no professional version, there are a TON of very talented former wrestlers available for volunteering. Our rec program had coaches who wrestled for Princeton, Boston College, and Penn State; not to mention a bunch of former high school wrestlers. So you should be able to find some guys. You can even design the practices; you just can't be there.

 

[PapaBearSLIM]

Thanks for all the discussion. And PapaBear...what's the IL contact rules?

Here's my situation guys. And I get the purpose of the rule (I suppose), that restricting contact allows kids to "play" other sports. And I'm not discounting artradley's examples/experience as I'm sure there are some that happen. But I have been involved with a club involving 5-7 high school coaches that pool all our kids together and run a practice twice a week at night. Then we all travel to the FS/Greco stuff during the spring. We all coach everyone in practices and at tournaments, none of us get paid. We just get the chance to have a full room (instead of 3-6 guys each) and our kids get to be coached by other good coaches. In the "culture" at my school (and from what I know the culture at the others) is that everyone encourages their kids to play other sports but if you're not in a sport (or if you want to attend after your practice) and you want to get better....here's a chance for you. Sure I'd love for all my kids to attend but it's on "them" if they want to get better. Now it seems our HS association is putting out a warning that this "contact" has to stop.
To me this just doesn't make sense, kids are asking to get better and I'm going to have to turn them away I suppose. And honestly, we'll probably be able to snag a college kid to come in here and help us out but I'm thinking more of the kids in the more rural areas where this isn't going to be a possibility. I mean in our rules the HS coach can't even be in the room, even if he's just there to open it up and not even coach.
As someone stated, here we are again penalizing everyone because of one or two bad apples....takes all the fn f*n out of it.

I actually don't know the rule and am not too interested in knowing it, really. I have a better idea of what my guys need than whoever made the rule. I do my best to get/give them what they need.

 

[wasdt21]

you rebel