I wish more of you posted on thematforums

[MSU158]

Although I understand why most of you don't, I am completely shocked to find myself being basically the only one backing Metcalf at least being even with Retherford.

It is even harder for me to see how short many poster's memories are. Metcalf wrestled in arguably some of the toughest weight classes of all time. And yet, an argument has been made that Retherford's dominance of his weight class purely puts him above Metcalf. Hell, there is even an argument the field at 149 during Retherford's run could end up comparable.

Considering Sorenson is the best 149 Retherford has wrestled(with very little depth after that) and he is of course from Iowa, where would you put him when comparing him to the 6 NCAA Champs coming out of Metcalf's brackets(Schlatter, Jenkins, Burrough, O'Connor, Molinaro and Caldwell) or these 4 NCAA Finalists(Churella, Lang, Chamberlain and Palmer)?

Finally, remember I am being strongly argued against for saying I thought Metcalf was 50/50 with Retherford, and I have been pretty vocal that I was/am a big fan of Metcalf!

 

[crablegs1]

Although I understand why most of you don't, I am completely shocked to find myself being basically the only one backing Metcalf at least being even with Retherford.

It is even harder for me to see how short many poster's memories are. Metcalf wrestled in arguably some of the toughest weight classes of all time. And yet, an argument has been made that Retherford's dominance of his weight class purely puts him above Metcalf. Hell, there is even an argument the field at 149 during Retherford's run could end up comparable.

Considering Sorenson is the best 149 Retherford has wrestled(with very little depth after that) and he is of course from Iowa, where would you put him when comparing him to the 6 NCAA Champs coming out of Metcalf's brackets(Schlatter, Jenkins, Burrough, O'Connor, Molinaro and Caldwell) or these 4 NCAA Finalists(Churella, Lang, Chamberlain and Palmer)?

Finally, remember I am being strongly argued against for saying I thought Metcalf was 50/50 with Retherford, and I have been pretty vocal that I was/am a big fan of Metcalf!

Lots of PSU fans on the mat blinded by bias. Most on this site blinded as well, but for a different team.

I'd put Sorenson as a competitor on the same level as the 4 NCAA finalists you mentioned above, but definitely below all of the NCAA champs. I don't see how anyone could argue objectively that Zain has had close to the level of competition that Metcalf faced.

However, one interesting argument I think is that Zain has one win better than anyone Metcalf beat. Steiber was a better folkstyler than anyone on the list of Metcalf's wins. Maybe one could argue Burroughs at his peak senior year, but that is not when Metcalf beat him. Zain beat a 2x defending champ.

 

[pablow]

Lots of PSU fans on the mat blinded by bias. Most on this site blinded as well, but for a different team.

I'd put Sorenson as a competitor on the same level as the 4 NCAA finalists you mentioned above, but definitely below all of the NCAA champs. I don't see how anyone could argue objectively that Zain has had close to the level of competition that Metcalf faced.

However, one interesting argument I think is that Zain has one win better than anyone Metcalf beat. Steiber was a better folkstyler than anyone on the list of Metcalf's wins. Maybe one could argue Burroughs at his peak senior year, but that is not when Metcalf beat him. Zain beat a 2x defending champ.

Zain beat Collica 2-1 a few months ago. I rest my case.

 

[JohnBasedow]

That place is a cesspool. No thanks

 

[MSU158]

I wasn't even arguing that Metcalf was better. I just don't see how you can argue Retherford over Metcalf based on his current level of dominance. As good as Sorenson is, I honestly would put his odds at less than 50% that he AA's in the 2008 149 bracket and I would put him on the bottom 5-8 of the podium in 2009 or 2010. And Sorenson is distinctly the best competition Retherford has faced at 149.

To me, Metcalf would have destroyed the last two 149lb NCAA brackets in very similar fashion to Retherford and I am not even sure Retherford wins 149, 2008-2010.

 

[ih8iast8]

Wrestling was invented After Metcalf. You seem to have forgotten this fact.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

That place is a cesspool. No thanks

Cesspool envy

 

[1stplacehawk]

There is no point to post about anything Iowa over there, because the thread will immediately be hijacked by a few hand jobs. I haven't even looked at that forum for 6+ months.

 

[reddogg26]

I have not visited that site in over 4 years. Unbelievabe how ignorant people are. Ask them this who is better Taylor or Rutherford? Most likely they will say Taylor then slap them with Jenkins finals match. Remund them what Metcalf did to Jenkins numerous times.

With that being said I honestly would say if they were to wrestle 10 times I would say Metcalf wins 6 and loses 4.

As much as I REALLY like Brandon he would be lucky to finish top 8 any of those years.

 

[pumpdog20]

Lots of PSU fans on the mat blinded by bias. Most on this site blinded as well, but for a different team.

I'd put Sorenson as a competitor on the same level as the 4 NCAA finalists you mentioned above, but definitely below all of the NCAA champs. I don't see how anyone could argue objectively that Zain has had close to the level of competition that Metcalf faced.

However, one interesting argument I think is that Zain has one win better than anyone Metcalf beat. Steiber was a better folkstyler than anyone on the list of Metcalf's wins. Maybe one could argue Burroughs at his peak senior year, but that is not when Metcalf beat him. Zain beat a 2x defending champ.

Yes, Stieber was a 2x champ by that point. And both titles came with heavy controversy.

 

[CFNiteHawk85]

I'd take Metcalf on his feet and Zain on the mat. At their peaks, I'd put them neck and neck. Similar styles.

Zain v. Caldwell would be interesting.

Despite a couple losses along the way, the Kyle Dake that beat Molinaro might be the best of the bunch. Probably the most complete wrestler I've seen. The only knock against him would be gas tank issues.

 

[lookleft goright]

It is hard to compare them. Metcalfe was suuuch a beast and so is Retherford. Lets wait to see how Zain does on the international circuit and use that as a tie breaker. All I can say is that match would be worth the price of admission to any event.

 

[rossel 33]

Although I understand why most of you don't, I am completely shocked to find myself being basically the only one backing Metcalf at least being even with Retherford.

It is even harder for me to see how short many poster's memories are. Metcalf wrestled in arguably some of the toughest weight classes of all time. And yet, an argument has been made that Retherford's dominance of his weight class purely puts him above Metcalf. Hell, there is even an argument the field at 149 during Retherford's run could end up comparable.

Considering Sorenson is the best 149 Retherford has wrestled(with very little depth after that) and he is of course from Iowa, where would you put him when comparing him to the 6 NCAA Champs coming out of Metcalf's brackets(Schlatter, Jenkins, Burrough, O'Connor, Molinaro and Caldwell) or these 4 NCAA Finalists(Churella, Lang, Chamberlain and Palmer)?

Finally, remember I am being strongly argued against for saying I thought Metcalf was 50/50 with Retherford, and I have been pretty vocal that I was/am a big fan of Metcalf!

---

Kudos to you and Vak for hanging in there.

I'd been on themat forum for years, but have found it mostly a cesspool (oh wait.... that moniker has already been taken ) for several years now.

There are some decent posters, but a handful of PSU jackals (Hurricane, Cletus (formerly suzie), Tbar, Lemonpie, Mopar and a few others) have made a career out of tearing down anything related to Iowa wrestling, often hijacking a thread or starting one for the sole purpose of attacking Brands or Metcalf or Slaton or Ramos or Zadick or St John or McDonough or .... you get the point. Everything is distorted and negative.

It doesn't seem a place where civil discussion takes place and folks can agree to disagree.

 

[horraybeer]

Zain beat Collica 2-1 a few months ago. I rest my case.

Metcalf got pinned in a duel. Everyone has a bad day.

 

[horraybeer]

Dual. That is what i get for talk to texting

 

[CowboyUp61]

---

Kudos to you and Vak for hanging in there.

I'd been on themat forum for years, but have found it mostly a cesspool (oh wait.... that moniker has already been taken ) for several years now.

There are some decent posters, but a handful of PSU jackals (Hurricane, Cletus (formerly suzie), Tbar, Lemonpie, Mopar and a few others) have made a career out of tearing down anything related to Iowa wrestling, often hijacking a thread or starting one for the sole purpose of attacking Brands or Metcalf or Slaton or Ramos or Zadick or St John or McDonough or .... you get the point. Everything is distorted and negative.

It doesn't seem a place where civil discussion takes place and folks can agree to disagree.

And you can see 21blanks in his full glory!

 

[24 so far]

I think Metcalf would own him on his feet, like he did damn near everybody for 3+ years of College Folkstyle (including multiple NCAA Champions). And I don't think Retherford is turning him.

The competition each faced isn't in the same stratosphere from an overall perspective either. The answer is there, you figure it out.

 

[MVPFAN]

The PSU site is less anti Iowa and less Iowa troll than the mat.

 

[HoundedHawk]

nm

 

[grapplefann]

Cesspool envy

Yeah, but this is OUR cesspool. Your neighbor's cesspool always smells worse. Just say'n.

 

[Cali_Nittany]

Although I understand why most of you don't, I am completely shocked to find myself being basically the only one backing Metcalf at least being even with Retherford.

It is even harder for me to see how short many poster's memories are. Metcalf wrestled in arguably some of the toughest weight classes of all time. And yet, an argument has been made that Retherford's dominance of his weight class purely puts him above Metcalf. Hell, there is even an argument the field at 149 during Retherford's run could end up comparable.

Considering Sorenson is the best 149 Retherford has wrestled(with very little depth after that) and he is of course from Iowa, where would you put him when comparing him to the 6 NCAA Champs coming out of Metcalf's brackets(Schlatter, Jenkins, Burrough, O'Connor, Molinaro and Caldwell) or these 4 NCAA Finalists(Churella, Lang, Chamberlain and Palmer)?

Finally, remember I am being strongly argued against for saying I thought Metcalf was 50/50 with Retherford, and I have been pretty vocal that I was/am a big fan of Metcalf!

This argument got playtime on FRL today (plus a nice feature on a certain poster...)
http://www.flowrestling.org/article...f-vs-zain-should-rankings-matter#.WPbMRRllDqB

 

[rossel 33]

In their prime, Metcalf v Retherford would be an awesome match. Two Hodge winners, both dominant in their college years.

Metcalf faced much tougher competition, and winning most all, as most everyone knows. Fwiw, he also beat Pico in their only head to head (Agon), while Retherford got beat fairly comfortably by Pico (twice, iirc).

At the same time I think Retherford is one guy who has shown significant improvement in the past 1-2 years. Hard to see anyone touching him next year, while Metcalf struggled with Palmer and before that, Caldwell.

 

[jvclark]

I'd take Metcalf on his feet and Zain on the mat. At their peaks, I'd put them neck and neck. Similar styles.

Zain v. Caldwell would be interesting.

Despite a couple losses along the way, the Kyle Dake that beat Molinaro might be the best of the bunch. Probably the most complete wrestler I've seen. The only knock against him would be gas tank issues.

You have a point. That Zain may be a better wrestler on top, but does that mean he could have turned Brent, or even ridden him? I just can't see that happening. Now does that mean Brent would have taken Zain down at will? Doubtful as well. I would see a lot of tough close 1 and 2 point matches, but would have to give the edge to Mr Metcalf if I were betting

 

[Pennstate1985]

You have a point. That Zain may be a better wrestler on top, but does that mean he could have turned Brent, or even ridden him? I just can't see that happening. Now does that mean Brent would have taken Zain down at will? Doubtful as well. I would see a lot of tough close 1 and 2 point matches, but would have to give the edge to Mr Metcalf if I were betting

I don't have an idea either way in this discussion. It would be a great matchup. That said, Zain rode Logie Bear so well the first time that he chose neutral after that. Brent would be wise to chose neutral when he can and go with his strength.

 

[SansSouci]

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they have plenty over there. They don't need me. I'll stay home.

 

[Azchief32]

Listened to it today. One argument was that Zain beat Logan...But Logan beat him twice. Meanwhile, Metcalf beat Pico and is very similar in style to Pico who has historically owned Zain. When Sorensen or anybody wrestle Zain close, their handfighting and keeping Zain at a distance is the difference. I think Metcalf is a bad matchup for Zain and I'd have no problem saying Metcalf 2008 would beat Zain. He won the toughest bracket in NCAA history IMO...6 of the top 8 were champs...the other two were finalists. Who has Zain beat in the NCAAs that are even close to the level of who Metcalf used to beat? I love Sorensen and respect some of the other 149's but its still a weak weight.

Still, Zain dominates everyone at the NCAAs so that argument is almost a wash because Zain is more valuable wrestler in terms of points.

 

[Gebmo]

Listened to it today. One argument was that Zain beat Logan...But Logan beat him twice. Meanwhile, Metcalf beat Pico and is very similar in style to Pico who has historically owned Zain. When Sorensen or anybody wrestle Zain close, their handfighting and keeping Zain at a distance is the difference. I think Metcalf is a bad matchup for Zain and I'd have no problem saying Metcalf 2008 would beat Zain. He won the toughest bracket in NCAA history IMO...6 of the top 8 were champs...the other two were finalists. Who has Zain beat in the NCAAs that are even close to the level of who Metcalf used to beat? I love Sorensen and respect some of the other 149's but its still a weak weight.

Still, Zain dominates everyone at the NCAAs so that argument is almost a wash because Zain is more valuable wrestler in terms of points.

I would tend to agree. I like looking back because it seems like most times the ones that came before get overshadowed by who is here now (in all sports with a few exceptions). To me it may be a very slight edge, but it is that bracket you talked about that impresses me. We are also talking folkstyle, so the freestyle arguments (Pico) hold less weight imo.

While I wouldn't bet against Zain running the gamut in that bracket, until he does something like that, like you said, still almost a wash, but at this point, one dryer sheet heavier for Metcalf.

 

[el dub]

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and they have plenty over there. They don't need me. I'll stay home.

Opinions, onions, its all good on 4-20…