If it were not for 2 incredibly invovled fathers, Fran would be gone by now.
- Thread starter Whiskeydeltadeltatango
- Start date
The whole theory of discrediting coaches for player improvement while blaming them for player failure (recruiting or playing) resides in a world of floating metrics and inconsistent logic. It's a statement that cannot be proven by any metric of player improvement unless one takes the position that the coaches are only responsible for failings and not successes.
What an incredible take. Jok!?
You recall that Jok led the Big Ten in scoring his senior season on 38% three point shooting? That he was a Second Team All Big Ten player his junior year and First Team his senior year? That he basically single handedly led an Iowa team comprised entirely of true freshmen and sophomores to a winning record in the Big Ten? That after losing basically only Jok, Iowa went 4-14 in the Big Ten the following season?
Jok is maybe the most underrated/least talked about Fran player on these boards. Dude was an absolute stud.. but you think he should have done what? Dunked more? Taken more midrange jumpers? You’re citing the guy who was amongst the best in the Fran era at the second most efficient shot in basketball and saying he should have “added tools” … what?
I mean we have certain guys like Jok and Bohannon that could shoot the lights out and not really do anything else at a good big ten guard level.
Jok was a wing at 6’6, and the most common Iowa starting lineup his senior season featured him at the 3:
Bohannon
Moss
Jok
Cook
Pemsl/Wagner
And Jok averaged 5.5 boards and 1.1 steals. You don’t become a First Team All Big Ten player (usually) by scoring and doing nothing else. By his senior year, he was a serviceable defender and way offset any defensive weaknesses with his offensive play
Lol at giving Frank Garza the credit for Luka.
I hate to even say it but if we compared iowa state guards for the past decade with iowa guards, would Iowa have just one guy crack the top ten for the schools combined? Obviously Marble, but is that it?!? Deandre Kane, Monte Morris, Matt Thomas, Naz Long, Bryce Dejean Jones, Deonte Burton, Lindell Wigginton, Talen Horton Tucker, Tyrese Halliburton, Rasir Bolton, Tyrese Hunter, Brockington. Gosh dang. We might only have one guy in the top 15! 🤦♂️ Putting Jok and Wieskamp at small forwards.
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For a good part of the year JU was a candidate for the Naismith award as the nations top player, before Garza and Murray, so yea, saying guys don't improve under Fran is lunacy....
I think Jok was mostly a 3. Bohannon and Moss were the starting guards at the end. And clemmons and Gesell were the starting guards at the beginning.
Jok had a ton more in his bag than Bohannon.
He could post up smaller players, he could get shots in iso, he could work off screens to catch and shoot, he could effectively run two man screen and roll.
JBOs offense was mostly transition 3s once opponents figured out to pick him up at half court.
Yea. That’s fair. He was a pure scorer not just a shooter. Was just saying he wasn’t really a good defender or creater for others.
That is called genetics. I had 4 kids. All 4 were athletes of varying levels from division 3 to division 1. I did nothing different with any. His kids did have the advantage of being at high level practices and access to gyms, 24/7.
Fans today don’t know how exciting Iowa basketball was with Lute and Dr Tom. They have gotten used to mediocrity.
I don’t hate Fran but I agree more and more that he’s hit his ceiling. We have seen him field great teams and even have great seasons but then they crash and burn come tourney time.
And now we are in a rebuilding year after getting nowhere yet again with a good team.
I guess it’s are you OK with ‘pretty good’ but never great. Fran seems to be. He would have addressed defense by now if he really wanted his teams to dominate. It’s such a glaringly obvious weakness. But that could also come down to recruiting and athleticism - can’t quite get those elite athletes that can lock down other elite athletes. Maybe, idk.
I don’t hate Fran but I agree more and more that he’s hit his ceiling. We have seen him field great teams and even have great seasons but then they crash and burn come tourney time.
And now we are in a rebuilding year after getting nowhere yet again with a good team.
I guess it’s are you OK with ‘pretty good’ but never great. Fran seems to be. He would have addressed defense by now if he really wanted his teams to dominate. It’s such a glaringly obvious weakness. But that could also come down to recruiting and athleticism - can’t quite get those elite athletes that can lock down other elite athletes. Maybe, idk.
I started watching Iowa BB when Lute was the coach....great coach. I would even say that Lute was an elite level coach. Dr. Tom is probably my favorite all time Iow BB coach.....tons of respect and admiration for him. That said, I think that, generally, Fran has reached that level of success.
I also believe that one of the most exciting things about college sports is the ability for teams to get hot and playing at a high level at the right time so they end up making great runs.......I still think Fran is capable of that.
Iowa (during the time frame mentioned Lute to Fran) has always been an institution that holds itself accountable to playing by and within the rules. That has handicapped Iowa coaches at times, and I am okay with that. Winning by cheating isn't really winning.
I think that IF...big IF, Iowa can get the NIL thing figured out so that our coaches are on a relatively even playing field with competitors that we will be okay. I think Fran has been on a slow but sure upward trend with recruiting but now NIL is another challenge/barrier that Iowa/Fran/Kirk have to work extra hard to overcome. Let's hope it doesn't derail Iowa athletics.
Agree with much except the 'generally reached that level of success'. How? I guess you could argue we got really close to s16 with our OT loss to TN.
Lute got to the Final Four, and although Dr. Tom's 'middle years' do kinda look like Fran's in some ways, his career is also book ended by two S16 appearances (and a Elite 8.) Can't give Fran a pass for getting close but no cigar.
I will give you that Fran has surpassed Alford though.
Yep, I was specifically referring to Dr. Tom. And in his last year he got to the Sweet 16 with his own players....but that is just one measuring stick (Sweet 16).....if this year or in the next couple Fran makes that run to the Sweet 16 or Elite 8.......I think it's still "generally" in the same ballpark with the good Dr. A final 4 by Lute at Iowa and his subsequent success at Arizona, as I mentioned, I think puts him in the Elite category (National Championship). I'm not putting Fran in that category.
I think that if you gave Fran the talent that the good Dr. inherited from Raveling....we would have seen pretty similar results. That's my guess anyway.
Although Jordan is also the Iowa career leader in assists and free throw percentage. Clearly an uncoached player.
Never said he was uncoached. And you got to look at assists per game to compare. Andre Woolridge 5.9 assist/per game, Dean Oliver 4.5, Lester 4.8, BJ Armstrong 4.0. I think Bohannon is around 3.9.
Most of the cumulative offensive records will be Frans players because of the pace of play.
When you play six years with Jok, Cook, Garza, Weiskamp, and Keegan Murray as the guy brings the ball over half court, stops and passes it to them you're going to rack up some assists.
Thats not even in the same ballpark as a Woolridge who had to create most of his own scoring and most of his teammates opportunities off the dribble.
I would still take Wooldridge over any hawkeye in my time if I get one player to put on a team.
Woolridge was on a different planet. He was amazing. Dean Oliver was a heck of a player too.
Loved Dean so much - if his 3 was better he would have been unstoppable
Do you remember Garza his freshman year? Yes, he gets credit for all his work but Fran gets no credit for his improvement as well as the Murray’s. Come on!
Give Fran credit for the system that Fed Garza the ball in low post and that gave Keegan free reign to run the offense.
As far as development, Fran coaches a system, all the individual work outs are the players themselves with some direction from coaches/family. IF Fran were such a great development coach, CMAC wouldn't have spent 5 years shooting bricks and PMAC wouldn't have a shooting form that starts wth the ball at his hip. A good development coach would have insisted PMAC toughen up and play defense/rebound/play his size in the paint. Instead PMAC is a 6'9 perimeter guy that can't guard his position and lacks the tougness to play inside the paint.
It is the players individually...and their choices.....Keegan and Kris identical twins....Papa tried to get both boys to shoot with right hand even though natural left handers....Keegan took to it and became ambidextrous and 1st round NBA draft choice...Kris didn't and it really limits his game that he can only finish with his strong left hand.
I get it. Fran gets no credit and it’s all the player! Good Lord! No credit for Rebraca either, right?
I have a different perspective. CMAC played two sports, dealt with some very limiting injury issues.....but during his entire career brought something to the team that others didn't have in their tool box based on his background. The two sport, significant injury part limited Connor's ability to show on the court what he is capable of.......this year, he's been really good (in spite of the occasional off game).
PMAC has clearly dealt with a very serious health problem that has limited time in the weight room and apparently affected his ability to add weight/strength. Regardless of that his talent is obvious, he just faces unusual challenges in developing those talents. Yet he has improved at a slow pace.
I don't attach blame in the development of either of these young men to Fran based on their circumstances. *The one caveat is shooting form......that seems to be something that coaches sons should have been better at. I have watched every game this year with the exception of the recent BTN+ terrible loss. I can say that I have never seen Patrick shoot from the hip.
