If you give people free health care

[rocketclone]

Could be true, most of the fatties are republican afterall.

The transition of the farm industry has really hurt the Midwest in my opinion. We used to work our behinds off on the farm and for a lot of the neighbors. We are also treating our kids differently. There was 120 in our high school and 12 cars. Those were all farm kids who had the cars. The high school where I live now just paid about 750 grand to acquire property and build a new parking lot because the old one would not handle all the cars.

As a society, we have failed our kids. I have people I work with that can't pay their bills but have 3 kids and they each of their own car and the parents are working three different jobs to pay for them.

 

[naturalmwa]

The transition of the farm industry has really hurt the Midwest in my opinion. We used to work our behinds off on the farm and for a lot of the neighbors. We are also treating our kids differently. There was 120 in our high school and 12 cars. Those were all farm kids who had the cars. The high school where I live now just paid about 750 grand to acquire property and build a new parking lot because the old one would not handle all the cars.

As a society, we have failed our kids. I have people I work with that can't pay their bills but have 3 kids and they each of their own car and the parents are working three different jobs to pay for them.

Now that's a weird lifestyle choice.

 

[rocketclone]

Now that's a weird lifestyle choice.

I don't disagree. I keep hearing about free college. I agree we need to do some things to work on affordability but free, they have to have some skin in the game and college isn't for everyone.

Corporate America is taking notice as well. It used to be "I don't care what you do as long as you get your job done". Now, it is you need to do 10 transactions an hour and we watch and if you don't do that you will get reprimanded.

This has all lead to problems not only with healthcare, but a lot of other topics.

 

[naturalmwa]

I don't disagree. I keep hearing about free college. I agree we need to do some things to work on affordability but free, they have to have some skin in the game and college isn't for everyone.

Corporate America is taking notice as well. It used to be "I don't care what you do as long as you get your job done". Now, it is you need to do 10 transactions an hour and we watch and if you don't do that you will get reprimanded.

This has all lead to problems not only with healthcare, but a lot of other topics.

You know the middle class was fundamentally created by making college and postsecondary job training free for millions after WWII. The GI bill trained more then twice the number who went to an actual college. Investing in our people is a goal we should unite behind. Its the correct sort of redistribution, don't let your ideology get in the way of what works.

 

[CeMar_Clone]

You know the middle class was fundamentally created by making college and postsecondary job training free for millions after WWII. The GI bill trained more then twice the number who went to an actual college. Investing in our people is a goal we should unite behind. Its the correct sort of redistribution, don't let your ideology get in the way of what works.

So you think that joining the military for 3 years to get a college degree is a redistribution of wealth? I always thought our veterans earned it. Did not realize our military people were just collecting welfare.

 

[naturalmwa]

So you think that joining the military for 3 years to get a college degree is a redistribution of wealth? I always thought our veterans earned it. Did not realize our military people were just collecting welfare.

So you only want people in the middle class if they earn it? And you don't think training and working is earning it? I think you missed the point, maybe some free college would be in order.

 

[joelbc1]

They won't take care of themselves. People will drink a 30 pack of beer a day and eat a bunch of greasy food because it isn't any money out of their pocket. There will be no incentive to stay healthy. The more fat and sick people there are the quality of health care will decline greatly. Anytime you offer something for free the masses will take advantage of it and destroy it.

Right on!
"we the people" do such a good job of treating our bodies as temples now...and its all because we pay for it!

 

[Joes Place]

They won't take care of themselves. People will drink a 30 pack of beer a day and eat a bunch of greasy food because it isn't any money out of their pocket. There will be no incentive to stay healthy. The more fat and sick people there are the quality of health care will decline greatly. Anytime you offer something for free the masses will take advantage of it and destroy it.

Let's be clear: this isn't just about 'giving people free healthcare'. If you DO NOT tie healthcare premium rates to healthy life choices, it provides no additional incentive (aside from being in shape/being healthy) for people to take care of themselves.

Obesity, smoking and alcohol/drug use are the primary culprits. I would have no problem with charging higher rates to those who choose to engage in excessive behaviors which are linked to poorer health.

Smoking is easy, because it can be detected via blood test and not many have issues with charging more for smokers. Obesity is tougher, but you can certainly provide incentives for people to lose weight (your premiums go up based on your BMI or changes in BMI). Alcohol/drugs are also a challenge, because although some drugs you can test for, others you cannot (at least reliably).

So if we can construct ways to incentivize people to avoid unhealthier life choices through healthcare premium rates, those of us who choose to not engage in those activies will benefit from cheaper rates....

 

[rocketclone]

You know the middle class was fundamentally created by making college and postsecondary job training free for millions after WWII. The GI bill trained more then twice the number who went to an actual college. Investing in our people is a goal we should unite behind. Its the correct sort of redistribution, don't let your ideology get in the way of what works.

You know, I used to think like that. However, that was WWII. Things have changed. First of all you have 2 spouses working now, and back then, in a lot of cases, there was only one spouse working and the other stayed home with kids. Additionally, they had a manufacturing base back then and now it is more of a service base. Lots of changes have taken place since then.

I have a friend, who is very liberal, teaching junior college this year. He said after teaching for the last three months he is against free college.

They have to have some skin in the game.

You keep saying that Natural, the redistribution. We invest in our people. They get education from K through 12. There are numerous grants, scholarship and loan opportunities. They waste money on early childhood development, just so they can provide free childcare to people. They are already redistributing.

I took advantage of the grants and scholarships and got myself out of a situation where I could have ended up in a different place than I am now.

The government can't do that for people, you have to do it yourself. Sure some extra help is nice, but you just can't hand out freebies left and right eventually you run out of money.

 

[ihhawk]

The health screenings started in my company while Bush was still in office...

 

[SSG T]

I think the OP needs to look at obesity rates in this country and compare those numbers to the numbers of people getting "free" health care. There are a LOT of well off people with health care that are fat and out of shape.

 

[Joes Place]

I think the OP needs to look at obesity rates in this country and compare those numbers to the numbers of people getting "free" health care. There are a LOT of well off people with health care that are fat and out of shape.

....and as obesity, etc doesn't count against you relative to the health insurance rates you have, those people are costing the rest more in premiums.

Maybe instead of 'penalizing' people for being fat, smoking, etc., you list the rate cuts you can obtain by:

1: getting your BMI down, perhaps not completely dropping to 'normal', but progressively dropping by 1 or 2 points per year as an incentive for lower healthcare costs

2: quitting smoking (or just not smoking)

In other words, you list the actual 'rate', along with health incentive reductions to that rate, much like car insurance for 'good driver' discount, allowing them to put a monitor on your car, educational discount, military discount, etc.

You give people discounts for moving themselves into healthier territory. Those who don't care, or aren't interested, just pay more.

 

[SSG T]

....and as obesity, etc doesn't count against you relative to the health insurance rates you have, those people are costing the rest more in premiums.

Maybe instead of 'penalizing' people for being fat, smoking, etc., you list the rate cuts you can obtain by:

1: getting your BMI down, perhaps not completely dropping to 'normal', but progressively dropping by 1 or 2 points per year as an incentive for lower healthcare costs

2: quitting smoking (or just not smoking)

In other words, you list the actual 'rate', along with health incentive reductions to that rate, much like car insurance for 'good driver' discount, allowing them to put a monitor on your car, educational discount, military discount, etc.

You give people discounts for moving themselves into healthier territory. Those who don't care, or aren't interested, just pay more.

Kind of like a "safe driver discount", I'd be good with that.

 

[SSG T]

Hmm, it pays to read every word of a post. Oops.

 

[BABiscuit]

No, insurance is when you transfer risk with money to a pool to pay for uncertain losses, look up the definition. Going to the doctor for a physical is not an uncertain loss. In fact, it is not a loss at all. It is prevention. Kind of like cutting hanging tree limbs from over the house to prevent them from falling on your home.

If we paid to cut every ones tree limbs, or replace every ones roof, the cost of HO insurance would skyrocket, just like the cost of the health maintenance policy.

Health insurance is not insurance at all anymore, it is a maintenance plan.

You can argue your case, but that is still the point of health insurance. People wouldn't worry about getting health insurance if it was just to cover once a year check-ups. They would pay the $120 out of pocket. You are paying the rest of the premiums toward uncertain cost. Health insurance is different from other insurances in that insurance must cover the gradual deterioration of an asset (your body). Auto insurance does not pay to fix a broken down engine. If it did, you may see items like oil changes covered by insurance. Health insurers want you to get check-ups and other preventative care. Auto insurers don't care if you maintain your car because they aren't paying for it if it breaks down.

 

[naturalmwa]

You know, I used to think like that. However, that was WWII. Things have changed. First of all you have 2 spouses working now, and back then, in a lot of cases, there was only one spouse working and the other stayed home with kids. Additionally, they had a manufacturing base back then and now it is more of a service base. Lots of changes have taken place since then.

I have a friend, who is very liberal, teaching junior college this year. He said after teaching for the last three months he is against free college.

They have to have some skin in the game.

You keep saying that Natural, the redistribution. We invest in our people. They get education from K through 12. There are numerous grants, scholarship and loan opportunities. They waste money on early childhood development, just so they can provide free childcare to people. They are already redistributing.

I took advantage of the grants and scholarships and got myself out of a situation where I could have ended up in a different place than I am now.

The government can't do that for people, you have to do it yourself. Sure some extra help is nice, but you just can't hand out freebies left and right eventually you run out of money.

I wanted to give you credit. This was a good reply. I disagree, but I appreciate your thoughts. You and CeMar seem to look at this through some sort of "fairness" lens where your first concern is do people deserve or have they earned whatever redistribution is coming their way.

I prefer to look at through a results lens. I'm concerned less with the recipient's worthiness and more with will the redistribution create a stronger economy for us all. Empirically government redistribution of the sort we are discussing is the tide that lifts all boats. So I support it for purely self interested reasons and I think you should too. You will be better off with these policies in place.

 

[86Hawkeye]

They won't take care of themselves. People will drink a 30 pack of beer a day and eat a bunch of greasy food because it isn't any money out of their pocket. There will be no incentive to stay healthy. The more fat and sick people there are the quality of health care will decline greatly. Anytime you offer something for free the masses will take advantage of it and destroy it.

This may or may not be true.

At any rate, nothing is free.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

They won't take care of themselves. People will drink a 30 pack of beer a day and eat a bunch of greasy food because it isn't any money out of their pocket. There will be no incentive to stay healthy. The more fat and sick people there are the quality of health care will decline greatly. Anytime you offer something for free the masses will take advantage of it and destroy it.

I'm afraid most people understand that having a bunch of money to spend on their healthcare doesn't just fix an unhealthy lifestyle.

No one thinks. . . Oh well I was going to exercise and eat right but now that my health care is paid for I think I'm just going to pig out and be a couch potato.

Why?

Because having extra healthcare doesn't just fix pigging out and being a couch potato.

 

[HawkinMN]

I decided to go on the 12 step program. If I park just right, it's only 12 steps to the front door of Bdubs.