Iowa’s Flagship University
- Thread starter ProgressiveIowaAlumnus
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Hey now, I love George Washington Carver and peanut butter. I just don’t need to go to Ames to get any.
great Kurt Vonnegut reference too. He told us in a seminar to end the discussion one morning, smiling with pitiless empathy: “some of you are doomed”.
one week later, almost to the hour, planes were flown into the World Trade Center.
many places to see literary history in iowa city.
Eight Great Iowa City Literary Haunts
Retrace the steps of some of Iowa City's most prominent writers on this literary walking tour.
magazine.foriowa.org
And now yet another great restaurant in The Webster. Love this town! Go Hawks!
I separate the two universities by which university offer programs in the professions. If the career goal is Medicine, Law, Dentistry, Pharmacy, Nursing, Business and Writing then the University of Iowa better represents what a flagship university would be. I do not know the stats on the number of graduate students but I surmise that the U of I has more graduate and doctoral students.
The State University of Iowa (SUI for us old timers) was established by the state constitution. When the Morrill Act passed after the Civil War Iowa State College was created by that federal act. It wasn't until the 60's that ISC became ISU. Iowa State Teacher college eventually became the University of Northern Iowa. I do think the legislature and governors made a bad decision with how the regents universities were set up. I believe the model used by Wisconsin and Minnesota would have been better. You could cut out a lot of administrative costs with centralized administration for all three universities. We know who the flagship public universities are in Wisconsin and Minnesota.
Rather recently the Regents turned to allocating state funding based on undergraduate population which negatively impacts graduate programs at Iowa and rankings. I'm not sure that helps the reputation of graduates of any of the three universities.
The State University of Iowa (SUI for us old timers) was established by the state constitution. When the Morrill Act passed after the Civil War Iowa State College was created by that federal act. It wasn't until the 60's that ISC became ISU. Iowa State Teacher college eventually became the University of Northern Iowa. I do think the legislature and governors made a bad decision with how the regents universities were set up. I believe the model used by Wisconsin and Minnesota would have been better. You could cut out a lot of administrative costs with centralized administration for all three universities. We know who the flagship public universities are in Wisconsin and Minnesota.
Rather recently the Regents turned to allocating state funding based on undergraduate population which negatively impacts graduate programs at Iowa and rankings. I'm not sure that helps the reputation of graduates of any of the three universities.
The funding regime negatively impacts all rankings of regents universities.
My main points for the UI being firmly the flagship is that even the so-called most prestigious programs at ISU - like vet med or engineering - are either average or merely pretty good, while UI’s most prestigious colleges and programs are much higher ranked, even world class. And that one university has highly ranked med school and law school, and no other university does, says everything about Flagship status.
Look, I have to disagree with you on their engineering program being "average or 'merely pretty good'." ISU has a fantastic engineering program. Don't forget that one of the 17 US Dept. of Energy National Laboratories is located in Ames, IA and is partnered with ISU. Having worked for 8 years as a MechE at another DOE site in the Midwest, I am telling you that we loved to hire ISU engineering grads and they were just as good as our MIT/CalTech/Cornell grads. The program is fantastic and if you're an in-state student the tuition is incredibly affordable. I wanted to (and did) study aeronautical engineering, which Iowa doesn't offer, and I had bought in to the "wisdom" that ISU was only average in engineering - so instead I went to a "prestigious" engineering school where tuition was $50k/year + room & board. And I'm telling you my education would have been just as good (if not better) at ISU and would have cost me about 10% as much.
I understand that ISU is affordable. I also understand that ISU - as do all universities - teaches the same material as does MIT. As I said in my first post, my business partner got his PhD in from ISU in materials science. He’s a mechanical engineer, and we’ve cofounded two engineering companies together with several other engineers. I’ve also hired a number of engineers and worked on projects with engineers and engineering students from places like MIT and UIUC to Purdue and Caltech, to Iowa and ISU.
ISU is just not on the same tier as most B10 university engineering programs by any measure, much less the Columbias and Cornells and CalTechs and MITs of the world.
Columbia admitted 3.7% of applicants this year, which is more selective than ever and on par with Harvard. MIT accepted 4%.
ISU admitted 92.1% last year.
Think about that a second. And be honest.
I realize you too have some anecdotal data on a few ISU grads and consider them good. I’m sure they are.
But a 47th ranked engineering college at an institution that accepts almost anybody and everybody just isn’t close to top tier, by any measure.
Sure the very top students at ISU or Iowa in engineering can compete with those at MIT or Columbia, but we are talking about ENTIRE programs and ALL grads on average. Cherry picking data or the very best grads just isnt representative, by definition, so please be objective.
And regarding affordability, schools like Columbia and MIT have massive endowments that often make them more affordable to families than even state schools. I know a student at Columbia who pays $3,300 including living expenses, and one at Yale who pays just over $6k.
All students who get financial aid at Columbia are awarded grants, zero loans. And half get financial aid. The average award is $50k.
Facts and Figures | Columbia Financial Aid and Educational Financing
cc-seas.financialaid.columbia.edu
The caliber of researchers, research, and students, endowments, opportunities, and alumni networks at top tier institutions is incomparable to an ISU. Those are facts.
ISUs best programs are either average (like vet med ranked 14th of 28th), or pretty good (like 47th ranked engineering), but overall, it’s a pretty mediocre ranked national university (118th) that accepts pretty much everyone who is willing to put on a cyclones shirt.
The Board of Regents mandates this admissions policy. It’s killed Iowa in the rankings too. But at least Iowa has many programs that truly are world class (see earlier posts for examples).
Not my opinion. Not anecdotal data. Not cherry picking.
- Sep 13, 2002
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Ames and Iowa State are a perfectly fine university and town for those who never strive to be elite in their field - be it academic or athletic.While my dog was getting surgery at ISU, I had a chance to spend three days in Ames. My business partner has a PhD in mechanical engineering from ISU, and we’ve worked with faculty in their college of engineering over t years, and I’ve mentored or known a bunch of middle and high school students who have gone on to study there, so I have had a range of experiences.
First, Ames isn’t awful. There are some really nice areas. Liked the coffeehouse downtown. The main one in campus town closed, and is as dead as the rest of campus town now. Most of the city is just mediocre. Several of the parks are pretty. Some good rec trails, but none link to very interesting places. (I compare it to iowa city’s trail system that heads 10 miles to the state park)
Here is what The Independent newspaper in the UK called “The best thing on the Internet” (the hooray for Ames video won the internet - so that’s one thing called “world class” that ISU/Ames can claim, right?
This promotional music video for the city of Ames, Iowa is about the
Hooray for clean water and changeable weather!www.independent.co.uk
the Hooray for Ames video:
What’s great about ISU/Ames?
I’d heard a number of times over the years that the ISU veterinary med program was the best in the country, or one of the best. Was told that it’s probably what ISU is most famous.
I looked up the rankings. (All are from US News, the rankings most people pay attention to, so if you want to verify, go right ahead. Not riddling this post made on my phone here in Ames with too many links).
ISUs vet med program is ranked 14th of 28 programs in the country.
Solid grade of C.
Average. Mediocre. Sure, it’s best in a small state (meaning: the only such program), but how is that a big deal?
ISUs college of engineering is ranked 47th of 328 engineering programs in the country.
Solid grade is B, possibly a B+.
(The UI’s comes in at 84 of 328, putting them at a grade of B-, not much of a gap with ISU as many seem to think. Iowas college of engineering is ranked ahead of half of the B12 btw. The B10 has 3 schools in the top 10, and 9 in the top 35. The B12 only has 2 in the top 35. Iowa benefits from collaboration within its conference. So no contest here.).
Lets look at a few things Iowa is famous for.
Iowa has the #1 fiction, poetry, creative nonfiction programs not just nationally, but IN THE WORLD. Nothing in Ames comes close to being world’s best.
Grade of A+++ for each of these programs
Iowa’s medical school is ranked 22nd, tied with Stanford, for primary care, and 39th for research of 199 med schools rated nationally. Those are the two general rankings US News does.
Solid A
There are 237 law schools in the USA.
Iowais ranked 29th.
Solid A.
For overall undergrad, US News ranks Iowa 88, and ISU is 118 of 388 national universities.
Iowa City is leagues above Ames in every discernable category, though Ames is nice. I really do kinda like Ames. It’s just not nearly as good as Iowa City.
Iowa’s top academic scholarship is called the Flagship Award (students can qualify with a 33 or higher ACT and an unweighted 3.8/4.0 gpa.
Flagship. Exactly.
That’s how the rankings see The University of Iowa, and how it’s seen globally. Ag and tech schools nationally (Texas tech or A&M, MSU, Kansas state, Minnesota state, Illinois state, iowa state, cal state schools) are never as good as the flagships (UT Austin, Michigan, Iowa, Illinois, university of California schools (Berkeley, UCSF, UC Irvine, UCLA, etc)
Conclusion: there is only one Flagship university in the Hawkeye State.
Not everyone is cut out to work hard enough to be world class in their field. The world needs the minions and mediocre to operate as well, and ISU is a nice place for them to be educated.
Grinnell, right?While my dog was getting surgery at ISU, I had a chance to spend three days in Ames. My business partner has a PhD in mechanical engineering from ISU, and we’ve worked with faculty in their college of engineering over t years, and I’ve mentored or known a bunch of middle and high school students who have gone on to study there, so I have had a range of experiences.
First, Ames isn’t awful. There are some really nice areas. Liked the coffeehouse downtown. The main one in campus town closed, and is as dead as the rest of campus town now. Most of the city is just mediocre. Several of the parks are pretty. Some good rec trails, but none link to very interesting places. (I compare it to iowa city’s trail system that heads 10 miles to the state park)
Here is what The Independent newspaper in the UK called “The best thing on the Internet” (the hooray for Ames video won the internet - so that’s one thing called “world class” that ISU/Ames can claim, right?
This promotional music video for the city of Ames, Iowa is about the
Hooray for clean water and changeable weather!
the Hooray for Ames video:
What’s great about ISU/Ames?
I’d heard a number of times over the years that the ISU veterinary med program was the best in the country, or one of the best. Was told that it’s probably what ISU is most famous.
I looked up the rankings. (All are from US News, the rankings most people pay attention to, so if you want to verify, go right ahead. Not riddling this post made on my phone here in Ames with too many links).
ISUs vet med program is ranked 14th of 28 programs in the country.
Solid grade of C.
Average. Mediocre. Sure, it’s best in a small state (meaning: the only such program), but how is that a big deal?
ISUs college of engineering is ranked 47th of 328 engineering programs in the country.
Solid grade is B, possibly a B+.
(The UI’s comes in at 84 of 328, putting them at a grade of B-, not much of a gap with ISU as many seem to think. Iowas college of engineering is ranked ahead of half of the B12 btw. The B10 has 3 schools in the top 10, and 9 in the top 35. The B12 only has 2 in the top 35. Iowa benefits from collaboration within its conference. So no contest here.).
Lets look at a few things Iowa is famous for.
Iowa has the #1 fiction, poetry, creative nonfiction programs not just nationally, but IN THE WORLD. Nothing in Ames comes close to being world’s best.
Grade of A+++ for each of these programs
Iowa’s medical school is ranked 22nd, tied with Stanford, for primary care, and 39th for research of 199 med schools rated nationally. Those are the two general rankings US News does.
Solid A
There are 237 law schools in the USA.
Iowais ranked 29th.
Solid A.
For overall undergrad, US News ranks Iowa 88, and ISU is 118 of 388 national universities.
Iowa City is leagues above Ames in every discernable category, though Ames is nice. I really do kinda like Ames. It’s just not nearly as good as Iowa City.
Iowa’s top academic scholarship is called the Flagship Award (students can qualify with a 33 or higher ACT and an unweighted 3.8/4.0 gpa.
Flagship. Exactly.
That’s how the rankings see The University of Iowa, and how it’s seen globally. Ag and tech schools nationally (Texas tech or A&M, MSU, Kansas state, Minnesota state, Illinois state, iowa state, cal state schools) are never as good as the flagships (UT Austin, Michigan, Iowa, Illinois, university of California schools (Berkeley, UCSF, UC Irvine, UCLA, etc)
Conclusion: there is only one Flagship university in the Hawkeye State.
47th out of 393 (number of engineering programs in 2018) is better than "merely pretty good" -- that's great. You're correct that ISU isn't a "first-tier" engineering school like MIT, but to be in the top 12% of engineering programs in the US is better than "merely pretty good". They absolutely are at least equivalent to B10 engineering programs at Iowa, Maryland, PSU, Rutgers, Indiana, Minnesota, Nebraska. The rest of the university, definitely not on the same tier, but objectively speaking: ISU is a great engineering program.
EDIT
And if you want more numbers: https://ira.asee.org/wp-content/upl...gineering-Statistics-UPDATED-15-July-2019.pdf
Iowa State consistently shows up on lists above Iowa:
- Research Expenditures by School:
- ISU - #29 ($105M)
- Iowa - not listed (>#49)
- Tenured / Tenure-track faculty members
- ISU - #19 (239)
- Iowa - not listed (>#50)
- Engineering Bachelor's degrees awarded
- ISU - #6 (1,548) -- sandwiched by schools like GT, UC-Berkely, tOSU, Michigan, UIUC
- Iowa - not listed (>#50, <675 degrees)
- Engineering Master's degrees awarded
- ISU - #47 (350)
- Iowa - not listed (>#50, < 339 degrees)
- Engineering Doctoral degrees awarded
- ISU - #24 (129) - sandwiched by schools like Northwestern, USC, Columbia, tOSU, CMU, Wisc
- Iowa - not listed (>#50, <71 degrees)
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Campustown is lame as hell. It was lame when I was a student there, and somehow became even more lame the two times I have visited since.
Why not widen a few streets and build a couple of parking ramps? That would address the survey results and keep the hospital/Medical school within the realm of the main campus.
From what I have been reading on these boards over the last few years, the U of I has in the recent past been committed to some major investments in the current environs. Are they actually considering replacing those with some sort of billion dollar project North of town?
I find it funny, in a ridiculous way, that sports fans let the rivalry spill over into debates about Ames v. Iowa City, academics, and stupid titles like "flagship university." I have degrees from both schools and absolutely loved both universities and both towns. They are different, but I'd struggle to say one is better than the other. But as Iowans (or me as a former Iowan), its in everyone's best interests to have all three state schools be high quality and respected. That way, each high school graduate (remember - these are your children, nieces, nephews, grandchildren, etc.) can pick the educational path that is best for them.
The reality is that while none of the three state schools are Ivy League level, they each satisfy different needs, compliment each other well, are places where you can get a high quality education, and prepare their students well to compete in the job market and excel at their chosen profession. The State of Iowa has done a great job of developing three universities that compliment each other well as part of an overall framework. Letting sports rivalries spill over into upsetting that balance is just dumb in my opinion.
The reality is that while none of the three state schools are Ivy League level, they each satisfy different needs, compliment each other well, are places where you can get a high quality education, and prepare their students well to compete in the job market and excel at their chosen profession. The State of Iowa has done a great job of developing three universities that compliment each other well as part of an overall framework. Letting sports rivalries spill over into upsetting that balance is just dumb in my opinion.
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- Sep 13, 2002
- 94,289
- 191,197
- 113
Pshhhhh. Going for calm and reasoned rationality here on HROT?
Kind of a rookie mistake for a poster with your past and pedigree, bro.
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