Kansas Denies Bail to Poor People

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Well, not all poor people. The bill headed to Brownback's desk prohibits welfare recipients from spending money in a variety of ways. I'm guessing many of us might agree with some (perhaps many) of the provisions. But that one caught my eye as not just over the top but wrong.

The question of enforcement also puzzles me. If you are getting welfare and give your kid a few bucks to see a movie, you are apparently breaking the law, but how would anyone know? And what is the penalty? Arrest dad and then deny him bail?

From the article:

House Bill 2258 ... bans TANF (Temporary Assistance To Needy Families) recipients from purchasing "alcohol, cigarettes, tobacco products, lottery tickets, concert tickets, professional or collegiate sporting event tickets or tickets for other entertainment events intended for the general public..."

Furthermore, it prohibits TANF recipients from spending at establishments such as,

"... casino, gaming establishment, jewelry store, tattoo parlor, massage parlor, body piercing parlor, spa, nail salon, lingerie shop, tobacco paraphernalia store, vapor cigarette store, psychic or fortune-telling business, bail bond company, video arcade, movie theater, swimming pool, cruise ship, theme park, dog or horse racing facility..."

So if a TANF recipient wants to spend time with their kids at the swimming pool or at the movies, they are banned from doing so.

The bill also restricts TANF recipients from withdrawing more than $25 a day from ATMs.

Link

 

[naturalmwa]

I wonder if the prohibition on psychics could be a violation of religion? Does Kansas have a religious freedom law?

 

[Lone Clone]

I don't know how you'd enforce it. But I agree wholeheartedly with the intent. The fact you thing it is "wrong" indicates you don't understand the issue.

The intention of the program isn't to take money from one Kansan so that another Kansan can purchase luxuries. And yes, when you're so broke you're getting money for food and housing from strangers, going to a movie is a luxury.

The intention is to keep people from starving to death in the dark.

As to enforcement, again, I dunno. We don't enforce food stamp restrictions. Money is fungible. What might work is to deny sales of any non-staple to people who use food stamps for part of their purchase. That is, the legendary person who goes through the checkout line, uses food stamps for milk and bread and pays cash for beer and cigarettes. Money is fungible.

 

[22*43*51]

"So if a TANF recipient wants to spend time with their kids at the swimming pool or at the movies, they are banned from doing so."


This is not true. TANF recipients can go to all the swimming pools and movies they want.

They just aren't allowed to use TANF dollars.

Sounds like incentive to continue to look for a job.

 

[lucas80]

We could revisit the issue of food assistance programs being used to buy less than optimally healthy food. But, big agra-business has state legislatures in their pocket. The US Congress, too. It can be argued that it would be much easier to monitor food purchasing habits versus some money sneaking into movie ticket purchases.

 

[coffhawk]

They are not being denied bail...they just can't afford it. See the difference?

 

[Arbitr8]

The law makes perfect sense to anyone who is footing the bill for these lazy ass bums.

 

[SCHawkFan]

Guys, since benefits are applied to a prepaid card, this law simply lists the type of establishments that cannot accept the card. They can still pull $25 out of an ATM and go to a movie.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[Aegon_Targaryen]

Well, they could also not have the money given to them at the expense of others at all Parser. Not to mention that as the above poster said, they simply can't use the card itself. They can still take cash out.

No big deal. It's money taken from others that otherwise wouldn't have wanted to share it with them. It's theft it is.

 

[gonegolfing]

Originally posted by FlickShagwell:

Originally posted by Arbitr8:

The law makes perfect sense to anyone who is footing the bill for these lazy ass bums.

Right. Keep f***ing with the least amongst us so they can't take even the slightest break from being poor, even for 90 minutes. That'll make us all safer from physical violence, the line at the Wal-Mart go that much quicker, our fast food that much more spit free, etc.

The measure of a society is how it treats its least fortunate. America continues its slide.

Flick is right. Obviously the only true effort that can improve the plight of the poor is forced birth control while receiving public assistance.

America's slide is the result of one primary reason and one primary reason only , and it has nothing to do with the way in which it treats its least fortunate.

 

[ClarindaA's]

Originally posted by FlickShagwell:

Originally posted by Arbitr8:



The law makes perfect sense to anyone who is footing the bill for these lazy ass bums.

Right. Keep f***ing with the least amongst us so they can't take even the slightest break from being poor, even for 90 minutes. That'll make us all safer from physical violence, the line at the Wal-Mart go that much quicker, our fast food that much more spit free, etc.



The measure of a society is how it treats its least fortunate. America continues its slide.

I agree about swimming and the movies. However, **** the poor who smoke and get tattoos
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[ClarindaA's]

Originally posted by gonegolfing:

Originally posted by FlickShagwell:

Originally posted by Arbitr8:



The law makes perfect sense to anyone who is footing the bill for these lazy ass bums.

Right. Keep f***ing with the least amongst us so they can't take even the slightest break from being poor, even for 90 minutes. That'll make us all safer from physical violence, the line at the Wal-Mart go that much quicker, our fast food that much more spit free, etc.



The measure of a society is how it treats its least fortunate. America continues its slide.

Flick is right. Obviously the only true effort that can improve the plight of the poor is forced birth control while receiving public assistance.



America's slide is the result of one primary reason and one primary reason only , and it has nothing to do with the way in which it treats its least fortunate.

agreed
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[Lone Clone]

Originally posted by FlickShagwell:

The measure of a society is how it treats its least fortunate. America continues its slide.

Right. But some of you seem to think the measure is how often it treats them.

 

[Arbitr8]

Originally posted by FlickShagwell:

Originally posted by Arbitr8:

The law makes perfect sense to anyone who is footing the bill for these lazy ass bums.

Right. Keep f***ing with the least amongst us so they can't take even the slightest break from being poor, even for 90 minutes. That'll make us all safer from physical violence, the line at the Wal-Mart go that much quicker, our fast food that much more spit free, etc.

The measure of a society is how it treats its least fortunate. America continues its slide.

Welfare is not a right it is a privilege, taxpayer money shouldn't be used to send welfare mammies to the movies, buy smokes or lottery tickets.

The money should be spent for the bare necessities like milk, bread, beans, flour, hard tack.

 

[slieb85]

Originally posted by Arbitr8:

Originally posted by FlickShagwell:

Originally posted by Arbitr8:

The law makes perfect sense to anyone who is footing the bill for these lazy ass bums.

Right. Keep f***ing with the least amongst us so they can't take even the slightest break from being poor, even for 90 minutes. That'll make us all safer from physical violence, the line at the Wal-Mart go that much quicker, our fast food that much more spit free, etc.

The measure of a society is how it treats its least fortunate. America continues its slide.

Welfare is not a right it is a privilege, taxpayer money shouldn't be used to send welfare mammies to the movies, buy smokes or lottery tickets.

The money should be spent for the bare necessities like milk, bread, beans, flour, hard tack.

Seems a little big government-y to me...

That said, I have no real problem with this, if it's a small percentage of their funds that go on this card. Contrary to the opinion of a lot of people who have probably never hit very hard times, people on welfare, food stamps, wic, etc. are not inherently bad people, attempting to suck the government for whatever they can. A great number of people are ashamed about being on government assistance, and this isn't helping. A whole bunch of people work long hours for shit pay (due to a variety of reasons, this isn't an anti-corporation rant) and wind up on government assistance. It's pretty hard for me to categorize people as "lazy bums", just because they need help getting by.

 

[SalAunese]

LoL at Flick for having any perspective on how America treats it's poor.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[HallofFame]

Originally posted by slieb85:

Originally posted by Arbitr8:

Originally posted by FlickShagwell:

Originally posted by Arbitr8:

The law makes perfect sense to anyone who is footing the bill for these lazy ass bums.

Right. Keep f***ing with the least amongst us so they can't take even the slightest break from being poor, even for 90 minutes. That'll make us all safer from physical violence, the line at the Wal-Mart go that much quicker, our fast food that much more spit free, etc.

The measure of a society is how it treats its least fortunate. America continues its slide.

Welfare is not a right it is a privilege, taxpayer money shouldn't be used to send welfare mammies to the movies, buy smokes or lottery tickets.

The money should be spent for the bare necessities like milk, bread, beans, flour, hard tack.

Seems a little big government-y to me...

That said, I have no real problem with this, if it's a small percentage of their funds that go on this card. Contrary to the opinion of a lot of people who have probably never hit very hard times, people on welfare, food stamps, wic, etc. are not inherently bad people, attempting to suck the government for whatever they can. A great number of people are ashamed about being on government assistance, and this isn't helping. A whole bunch of people work long hours for shit pay (due to a variety of reasons, this isn't an anti-corporation rant) and wind up on government assistance. It's pretty hard for me to categorize people as "lazy bums", just because they need help getting by.

I wish I could believe this.

 

[SalAunese]

"Welfare mammies"

Smh
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[slieb85]

Originally posted by HallofFame:

Originally posted by slieb85:

Originally posted by Arbitr8:

Originally posted by FlickShagwell:

Originally posted by Arbitr8:

The law makes perfect sense to anyone who is footing the bill for these lazy ass bums.

Right. Keep f***ing with the least amongst us so they can't take even the slightest break from being poor, even for 90 minutes. That'll make us all safer from physical violence, the line at the Wal-Mart go that much quicker, our fast food that much more spit free, etc.

The measure of a society is how it treats its least fortunate. America continues its slide.

Welfare is not a right it is a privilege, taxpayer money shouldn't be used to send welfare mammies to the movies, buy smokes or lottery tickets.

The money should be spent for the bare necessities like milk, bread, beans, flour, hard tack.

Seems a little big government-y to me...

That said, I have no real problem with this, if it's a small percentage of their funds that go on this card. Contrary to the opinion of a lot of people who have probably never hit very hard times, people on welfare, food stamps, wic, etc. are not inherently bad people, attempting to suck the government for whatever they can. A great number of people are ashamed about being on government assistance, and this isn't helping. A whole bunch of people work long hours for shit pay (due to a variety of reasons, this isn't an anti-corporation rant) and wind up on government assistance. It's pretty hard for me to categorize people as "lazy bums", just because they need help getting by.

I wish I could believe this.

You wish you could believe that people don't appreciate going on government assistance? Or you wish you could believe this is how I feel?

Both are true. Hell, I qualified for food stamps in a rough period in my life, and I didn't go on them. Not because I was too proud and wanted to make it on my own, but because of the stigma provided by a portion of our society who have never understood what it's like to struggle through life, and not wanting to be shamed for needing help. Instead I scraped together change and coupons and went to Bruggers bagels to get some weird deal they had where you could get a 6-pack of day old bagels for $1 and had a jar of peanut butter. I ate pretty much exclusively that for 3 months while working full time, trying to pay off debt (and the financial burdens that come with being in debt, which is another topic). Again, not because I "wanted to be better" than to be on food stamps, but because I had been taught that only losers and deadbeats were on food stamps, and I couldn't bring myself to be a "loser" or a "deadbeat."

Hell, I came from a very well off family for Iowa, and I still wound up in that place, and I understood better at that time, how it can happen. It's hard for me to throw stones at those who have never had the advantages I was blessed with.

 

[ClarindaA's]

Originally posted by slieb85:

Originally posted by HallofFame:

Originally posted by slieb85:

Originally posted by Arbitr8:

Originally posted by FlickShagwell:

Originally posted by Arbitr8:



The law makes perfect sense to anyone who is footing the bill for these lazy ass bums.

Right. Keep f***ing with the least amongst us so they can't take even the slightest break from being poor, even for 90 minutes. That'll make us all safer from physical violence, the line at the Wal-Mart go that much quicker, our fast food that much more spit free, etc.



The measure of a society is how it treats its least fortunate. America continues its slide.

Welfare is not a right it is a privilege, taxpayer money shouldn't be used to send welfare mammies to the movies, buy smokes or lottery tickets.



The money should be spent for the bare necessities like milk, bread, beans, flour, hard tack.

Seems a little big government-y to me...



That said, I have no real problem with this, if it's a
small percentage of their funds that go on this card. Contrary to the opinion of a lot of people who have probably never hit very hard times, people on welfare, food stamps, wic, etc. are not inherently bad people, attempting to suck the government for whatever they can. A great number of people are ashamed about being on government assistance, and this isn't helping. A whole bunch of people work long hours for shit pay (due to a variety of reasons, this isn't an anti-corporation rant) and wind up on government assistance. It's pretty hard for me to categorize people as "lazy bums", just because they need help getting by.

I wish I could believe this.

You wish you could believe that people don't appreciate going on government assistance? Or you wish you could believe this is how I feel?

Both are true. Hell, I qualified for food stamps in a rough period in my life, and I didn't go on them. Not because I was too proud and wanted to make it on my own, but because of the stigma provided by a portion of our society who have never understood what it's like to struggle through life, and not wanting to be shamed for needing help. Instead I scraped together change and coupons and went to Bruggers bagels to get some weird deal they had where you could get a 6-pack of day old bagels for $1 and had a jar of peanut butter. I ate pretty much exclusively that for 3 months while working full time, trying to pay off debt (and the financial burdens that come with being in debt, which is another topic). Again, not because I "wanted to be better" than to be on food stamps, but because I had been taught that only losers and deadbeats were on food stamps, and I couldn't bring myself to be a "loser" or a "deadbeat."

Hell, I came from a very well off family for Iowa, and I still wound up in that place, and I understood better at that time, how it can happen. It's hard for me to throw stones at those who have never had the advantages I was blessed with.

you made it though...and you didn't have kids while you were poor, get tattoos, etc. I didn't use it because I would have been ashamed.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[slieb85]

Originally posted by ClarindaA's:
you made it though...and you didn't have kids while you were poor, get tattoos, etc. I didn't use it because I would have been ashamed.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

Making it for me had more to do with reconciling with my parents than anything to do with my own personal resolve. I very easily could have gone the other way, had I not swallowed my pride and admitted I was being a shitty son.

I didn't have to deal with being on free and reduced lunch as a kid, nor having parents without an education, nor parents in legal trouble, nor parents with drug problems. I didn't have to worry about where my next meal came from, how my sister was going to have her medication paid for, or anything like that.

And until I went through some of that, I felt like a lot of people do in this thread. I guess walking a mile in another man's shoes really did change my views.

And none of this even mentions the fact that we incarcerate such a high percentage of our population, which wrecks poor families, and in particular, minorities.

Shit man, Tupac said this line in 1998 and it's as true today as it was then. We've been fighting the wrong problems all along.

There's war on the streets and the war in the Middle East.
Instead of war on poverty,
they got a war on drugs so the police can bother me.


Also, I saw earlier that this is like .2% of KS's budget (I'll link). They spend 13.5x as much money on incarcerations as they do on public assistance. That's why it's so hard for me to get behind measures like this. They "feel" good to some, but we're totally missing the point and fighting the wrong wars.

Minnesota has a much better ratio

 

[22*43*51]

Slieb - That is actually an impressive story on overcoming adversity. The world needs more people like you.

The perceived "stigmatism" helped motivate you. There's nothing wrong with that.

It was actually a very healthy feeling for you in the long run I bet.

 

[22*43*51]

Originally posted by FlickShagwell:
Kansas is trying so hard to be the worst state in the country.

What improvements has Kansas seen under Brownback? The assaults on the poor, the sweeping tax cuts, this latest conceal carry nonsense, they haven't been good for business - just the opposite, they haven't improved kids' test scores, it can't possibly be good for tourism, and now with a bunch of poor people so shamed they can't see a movie but can pack heat in their waist bands, you can bet public safety will suffer as well.

Truly, What's the Matter with Kansas?

Have you been following any of the discussion on these topics?

 

[Rose bowl or bust]

Originally posted by slieb85:

Originally posted by ClarindaA's:
you made it though...and you didn't have kids while you were poor, get tattoos, etc. I didn't use it because I would have been ashamed.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

Making it for me had more to do with reconciling with my parents than anything to do with my own personal resolve. I very easily could have gone the other way, had I not swallowed my pride and admitted I was being a shitty son.

I didn't have to deal with being on free and reduced lunch as a kid, nor having parents without an education, nor parents in legal trouble, nor parents with drug problems. I didn't have to worry about where my next meal came from, how my sister was going to have her medication paid for, or anything like that.

And until I went through some of that, I felt like a lot of people do in this thread. I guess walking a mile in another man's shoes really did change my views.

And none of this even mentions the fact that we incarcerate such a high percentage of our population, which wrecks poor families, and in particular, minorities.

Shit man, Tupac said this line in 1998 and it's as true today as it was then. We've been fighting the wrong problems all along.

There's war on the streets and the war in the Middle East.
Instead of war on poverty,
they got a war on drugs so the police can bother me.


Also, I saw earlier that this is like .2% of KS's budget (I'll link). They spend 13.5x as much money on incarcerations as they do on public assistance. That's why it's so hard for me to get behind measures like this. They "feel" good to some, but we're totally missing the point and fighting the wrong wars.

I think this is part of the idea behind the proposed measure. Kids shouldn't have to worry about eating because their parents are spending their welfare money on cigarettes and tattoos. They're getting food stamps and assistance to help with essential life expenses, not luxuries.

I'm teaching my 6 year olds about the difference between needs and wants…I figured some of our adult society would have figured this out by now. Not many people are against public assistance; it's the abuse that bothers people. This measure aims to deter that abuse.

 

[HallofFame]

Originally posted by slieb85:

Originally posted by ClarindaA's:
you made it though...and you didn't have kids while you were poor, get tattoos, etc. I didn't use it because I would have been ashamed.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

Making it for me had more to do with reconciling with my parents than anything to do with my own personal resolve. I very easily could have gone the other way, had I not swallowed my pride and admitted I was being a shitty son.

I didn't have to deal with being on free and reduced lunch as a kid, nor having parents without an education, nor parents in legal trouble, nor parents with drug problems. I didn't have to worry about where my next meal came from, how my sister was going to have her medication paid for, or anything like that.

And until I went through some of that, I felt like a lot of people do in this thread. I guess walking a mile in another man's shoes really did change my views.

And none of this even mentions the fact that we incarcerate such a high percentage of our population, which wrecks poor families, and in particular, minorities.

Shit man, Tupac said this line in 1998 and it's as true today as it was then. We've been fighting the wrong problems all along.

There's war on the streets and the war in the Middle East.
Instead of war on poverty,
they got a war on drugs so the police can bother me.


Also, I saw earlier that this is like .2% of KS's budget (I'll link). They spend 13.5x as much money on incarcerations as they do on public assistance. That's why it's so hard for me to get behind measures like this. They "feel" good to some, but we're totally missing the point and fighting the wrong wars.


Slieb why do I get the feeling you were a rich kid who had a summer after high school or during college where you just told Daddy you didn't need his money anymore and rode the rails to find yourself.
You have no idea what being poor is.

 

[Titus Andronicus]

Boy, I don't know about this one. Some of my fondest memories of being a ten-year-old were of my uncle (The homeless one, not the movie star) taking me to the track and placing my bets for me. He taught me all about speed ratings, moving up in class, analyzing the histories of the horses recent races, weather, gender of the horses, experience and more. He taught me about jockeys, trainers, even owners ... all of that stuff, and all the while sneaking sips from a flask containing single malt whisky.

I would not be the same person without those life-altering childhood experiences, and am saddened that some poor kid in a Midwestern ghetto might be deprived in the future.

 

[slieb85]

Originally posted by HallofFame:

Slieb why do I get the feeling you were a rich kid who had a summer after high school or during college where you just told Daddy you didn't need his money anymore and rode the rails to find yourself.
You have no idea what being poor is.

Why do I get the feeling that you have no clue about me? Because you don't. You want to discuss what actually happened or would you rather just attack me, instead of the points I'm making?


Go back to ranting about how black and white people weren't meant to marry each other, and leave the adult conversations to the rest of us.

 

[slieb85]

Originally posted by Rose bowl or bust:

I think this is part of the idea behind the proposed measure. Kids shouldn't have to worry about eating because their parents are spending their welfare money on cigarettes and tattoos. They're getting food stamps and assistance to help with essential life expenses, not luxuries.


I'm teaching my 6 year olds about the difference between needs and wants…I figured some of our adult society would have figured this out by now. Not many people are against public assistance; it's the abuse that bothers people. This measure aims to deter that abuse.
[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by 22*43*51:

Slieb - That is actually an impressive story on overcoming adversity. The world needs more people like you.

The perceived "stigmatism" helped motivate you. There's nothing wrong with that.

It was actually a very healthy feeling for you in the long run I bet.

I think the problem with the "abuse" is that the reaction to it is far stronger than the actual abuse. I think is a disproportionate reaction, and we're essentially addressing the wrong measures. In a vacuum, I'd agree with trying to limit, or eliminate, the idiotic spending by people on government assistance. But the world doesn't operate in a vacuum and the energy and focus that is being applied to this is over blown, in my opinion. Additionally, in order to make this work, I think it would take more effort than is worth. Lastly, I think the overall utilitarian net positives for a state like Kansas can be raised by focusing on other areas that need fixing. There's a lot of abuse and waste in our economic and political systems, it's telling that some are focused on this, and not on the other areas.


And while I agree that it may be a "healthy" feeling long term, I don't know that I agree that I want a society that focuses on the stick instead of the carrot. It would have been pretty reasonable for society to help a kid making $5.15 an hour buy groceries for a short period of time. It's not like it would have erased my obligations to pay down my debt. It would have simply allowed me to have real meals, instead of a few months of peanut butter bagels and water.

I think the gist of what I'm saying is that we shouldn't shame people for needing help. This measure essentially designates those on government assistance as a different class of people, a class that can't be allowed to spend whatever money they have as they see fit. I'm just not sure that's the America I want.

 

[HallofFame]

But if it isn't your money why shouldn't it come with stipulations on how it is spent. And I have no problem helping the person who needs it for six months or a year no problem at all and I regularly do. I've busted my back helping kids of all backgrounds and race through mentoring, and giving them jobs. But I have been beaten back time and time again by the welfare queen who does nothing but gravy train off the system. I don't think anyone with half a brain thinks that the abusers are a major drain financially on the system well except maybe healthcare but you gotta start somewhere. I spent 18 years with first hand knowledge of this class of Americans and the overwhelming majority of them don't care they are on assistance and do nothing but bitch that they want more. Now that I am an adult my job is still working with a large population of people on government assistance. The shame you felt for almost taking the handouts isn't a terrible thing. Assistance isn't supposed to last 10 or 20 years or go from one generation to the next that is where it drives me nuts. So the fact that someone on welfare for 10 years is told not to use taxpayer handouts to go to a movie doesn't offend me one bit.

 

[86Hawkeye]

Welfare money should not cover bail.

 

[coffhawk]

Originally posted by FlickShagwell:
Kansas is trying so hard to be the worst state in the country.

What, has the governor invited you to move there?