Lee

Discussion in 'Iowa Wrestling' started by Ruinous, Dec 4, 2019 at 2:30 PM.

  1. Ruinous

    Ruinous HR MVP
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    1,561
    Likes Received:
    563
    I hesitate to ask, as some folks will inevitably consider this to be a negative post, but here goes:

    Just wondering if others have considered the possibility that Spencer's ability to tilt most opponents at will leaves some team points on the board by earning TFs instead of pins in some cases?

    Good problem to have I know, but the thought has popped into my head from time to time, so I thought I'd raise the question.
     
  2. artradley

    artradley HR Legend
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    19,296
    Likes Received:
    26,860
    No, not concerned by that.
     
  3. russelscout

    russelscout HR All-State
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2015
    Messages:
    515
    Likes Received:
    998
    Pins are hard to come by, even someone as good as Lee. You can spend a whole period trying to secure a pin and end up with a dec. I like a guy who can guarantee the best chance of getting a tech or pin and that's what Lee does. Scores a ton, but will take the pin if it's there.
     
  4. Monzon

    Monzon HR Heisman
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2001
    Messages:
    8,352
    Likes Received:
    1,095
    Not concerned. He's getting major bonus, he's imposing his will early and often. Lee also has no issue running the half if he sees it.

    It decreases the amount of points he can score in the 2nd / 3rd, confirming Flo's thoughts on 'the field'.
     
    meatloaf55 likes this.
  5. dtripp26

    dtripp26 HR Legend
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2003
    Messages:
    16,138
    Likes Received:
    8,712
    I'll take 5 pts from Lee every single time. If we lose a dual where Lee scored a TF somebody else didn't do their job.
     
    HemiHawk, Im4Iowa, Sandor45 and 20 others like this.
  6. shobart

    shobart HR All-State
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    794
    Likes Received:
    483
    Location:
    Chicago
    Not here to criticize you, but I think it's important to remember that Lee will TF guys that are ranked in the top 20...and that's a pretty frequent occurrence. Shoot, he TF'd Mackall from ISU in the first period and he's a potential AA candidate. My point is he's scoring a lot of team points against opponents in scenarios where it would be pretty normal to see a regular decision or major decision at best.

    Just my two cents.
     
  7. Chopper25

    Chopper25 HR All-State
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2014
    Messages:
    840
    Likes Received:
    917
    I.e. Marinelli vs Chattanooga
     
  8. just_somebody

    just_somebody HR MVP
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,250
    Likes Received:
    2,555
    I will never complain about a TF instead of a fall- especially in a tournament setting- end the match as quickly as you can, lest something funky happens.


    I am now waiting for a situation where a match starts at 133, and Iowa is somehow down 5 and Iowa's fate rests on Lee sticking someone
     
    Mendoza77 likes this.
  9. russelscout

    russelscout HR All-State
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2015
    Messages:
    515
    Likes Received:
    998
    Id feel pretty good in that scenario.
     
  10. artradley

    artradley HR Legend
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    19,296
    Likes Received:
    26,860
    He TF Lizak 15-0 for goodness sakes.
     
    shobart likes this.
  11. 1032004

    1032004 Team MVP
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2019
    Messages:
    210
    Likes Received:
    126
    PSU :) ? These aren't really predictions but just possible scenario:

    Desanto dec RBY 3-0 Iowa
    Lee maj Murin 4-3 PSU
    Lugo dec Verk 6-4 Iowa
    Young dec Berge 9-4 Iowa
    Marinelli dec Joseph 12-4 Iowa
    Hall dec Kemerer 12-7 Iowa
    Rasheed maj Brands/Wilcke 12-11 Iowa
    Beard dec Warner 15-12 PSU
    Cassar dec Cassioppi 18-12 PSU

    First criteria is # of falls/FFT's/DQ's right so then a pin for Lee would win it?
     
    just_somebody likes this.
  12. just_somebody

    just_somebody HR MVP
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,250
    Likes Received:
    2,555
    [​IMG]
     
    SDHN2013, IAChief32, Grip220 and 3 others like this.
  13. just_somebody

    just_somebody HR MVP
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,250
    Likes Received:
    2,555
    Is it Teske that gets pinned? :)
     
    13 just_somebody, Dec 4, 2019 at 3:49 PM
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019 at 7:00 PM
    honkey69 likes this.
  14. shobart

    shobart HR All-State
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    794
    Likes Received:
    483
    Location:
    Chicago
    Indeed he did. No discredit to the OP as I'm certainly a "there is not a stupid question" kind of guy, but I do think there's somewhat of a curse to being a generational type of talent wrestler. Granted, Lee has been dinged up a bit here and there/illness, etc., but Lee is just so dam good that people wonder if something is "off" if he wrestles a full match! Ha. Again, I'm not harping on the OP's question by any means, and shoot, I sometimes wondered if Nolf was hurt if he didn't have 8 takedowns in a match :)
     
  15. 1032004

    1032004 Team MVP
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2019
    Messages:
    210
    Likes Received:
    126
    I actually think it's a fair question, but I'd say the real answer is I don't think there's many guys that he "should be" pinning that he isn't as a lot of the guys he's teching are actually pretty good. He did have 9 pins in 2018 and 8 in 2019, I don't know all the stats of everyone else but that does seem like quite a few. Even Cullen for example only got majored by NATO in 2017, and Luke Resnick of Lehigh was 4-17 last year but didn't get pinned at all. Lee probably "should have" pinned Alejandro Figueroa-Hernandez of CSUB and Tomas Gutierrez of Kent State last year, but that was the first competition of the season so he can probably get a pass for those.
     
  16. slushhead

    slushhead HR MVP
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2014
    Messages:
    1,993
    Likes Received:
    4,025
    It takes 5 wins at Nationals to be champ. 1.5 bonus for TF, 2.0 for F.

    5 x 0.5 = 2.5 pts maximum that can be left on the board when running the table with TF vs. F. If you assume Spencer
     
  17. fufighters

    fufighters HR All-State
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2009
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    1,650
    Lee does what is correct work towards the fall and take what you get. The better the talent the harder it's going to be to get those bonus points. Right now we have some guys that do that and others who just try to win.
     
  18. shobart

    shobart HR All-State
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    794
    Likes Received:
    483
    Location:
    Chicago
    Of course it's a fair question, but I think your response pretty much proved my point. "He can probably get a pass for those".....think about that statement for a second. Lee is so dam good that the general consensus is that he should be pinning just about everybody. Doing what Spencer Lee has done to his competition...particularly when it's mattered....is not the norm. If we all start to wonder why Spencer doesn't pin everyone and become concerned.....well...two years from now coming back down to Earth to "real life" when Spencer isn't our 25 pounder will be quite a disappointment.

    Cheers
     
  19. 1032004

    1032004 Team MVP
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2019
    Messages:
    210
    Likes Received:
    126
    No actually that's not what I said at all. I pretty much looked at all of the guys he TF'ed since last year, and then looked to see if those guys were actually good. I really only saw those 2, from the first competition of the season, of guys that really aren't that good (by D1 standards). Obviously he shouldn't be pinning everyone, but it's not necessarily hating to think he "should be" pinning below average wrestlers (both of those guys have under .500 records for their career and have been pinned on multiple occasions).
     
    19 1032004, Dec 4, 2019 at 4:29 PM
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019 at 5:09 PM
  20. Ruinous

    Ruinous HR MVP
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    1,561
    Likes Received:
    563
    Good thoughtful discussion all. A lot of good points made. Really appreciate the insight.
     
  21. wasdt21

    wasdt21 HR All-American
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2014
    Messages:
    4,110
    Likes Received:
    5,950
    wasn't worried about until 1032004 put his example up there
     
  22. so cal hawkfan

    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,417
    Likes Received:
    3,572
    Location:
    Whittier CA
    While I wouldn’t expects Murin to beat Lee, his stingy defense will keep it close. The same goes for Wilcke/Brands. Rasheed health has been in question and others have gotten the starting nod in his stead. When he’s healthy I think it’s a 2-3 point win for him. Warner hasn’t looked great, but the last couple times he wrestled Beard, he hammered him. Admittedly those were freestyle matches over 2 years ago, but JWar owned him on their feet. Short response, I think Iowa wins this dual by 3-4 points.
     
    armbartilt likes this.
  23. GogglesPaizano

    GogglesPaizano Team MVP
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2018
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    224
    Location:
    Bedrock
    Nope. Still on the very short list for the Hodge this year and will get more than his fair share of pins.
     
  24. 1032004

    1032004 Team MVP
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2019
    Messages:
    210
    Likes Received:
    126
    I mostly agree, but none of those are sure things...Joseph could also beat Marinelli, someone else could get caught and pinned, etc. Was mostly just laying out a plausible scenario where they might need 6 from Lee.
     
  25. GogglesPaizano

    GogglesPaizano Team MVP
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2018
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    224
    Location:
    Bedrock
    Putting aside the on paper close matches for the moment, there are bigger issues at play. "If" PSU comes in healthy which means an improved Berge from last year up at 157 and Shak with a few duals under his belt in advance at 184, and .... Conel turns things around and is properly conditioned (or Beard's shirt gets pulled) at 197. Then I think it is a Penn State lean by 4+ points. If all three of those things don't come together then I think Iowa wins by at least 3 maybe much more. Sitting here in early December my odds of all three delivering for PSU are 50/50 at best.
     
  26. slushhead

    slushhead HR MVP
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2014
    Messages:
    1,993
    Likes Received:
    4,025
    You want Wilcke going vs. a healthy Rasheed. I would expect Brands to get cradled.
     
  27. shobart

    shobart HR All-State
    Gold Member
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2004
    Messages:
    794
    Likes Received:
    483
    Location:
    Chicago
    Last comment as we're on the same team here bud, but when you're throwing statements around like "he can get a pass" you're setting your own level of expectations, and in this case with Lee...it's very high. Considering his level of talent, it's an easy thing to do as I even do it myself sometimes. Didn't think you were throwing shade on Spencer by any means.
     
  28. so cal hawkfan

    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,417
    Likes Received:
    3,572
    Location:
    Whittier CA
    I agree with this for the most part. A lot has to go right for PSU. Iowa is wrestling well right now, but things can change. PSU hasn’t had the success they have had by being lucky, they know how to win. I just don’t see Berge (recovering from a concussion) beating Young.
     
    Grip220 likes this.
  29. so cal hawkfan

    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,417
    Likes Received:
    3,572
    Location:
    Whittier CA
    Strong possibility of that, but I like Brands in a comeback win if it goes 3 periods. Wilcke can keep it close against pretty much anyone.
     
    slushhead and Grip220 like this.
  30. 255

    255 HR All-American
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2002
    Messages:
    2,602
    Likes Received:
    1,186
    I understand the question. I am feeling 4/5 every time be sometimes pins and risking decisions taking the time to pin. Math works out to the tf guy.
    Good questions.
     
  31. bawlmerhawk

    bawlmerhawk All-Conference
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2010
    Messages:
    493
    Likes Received:
    435
    No problem at all with a TF. It usually happens in the 1st or 2nd period, which means a at least 2 min. where Lee doesn't get tired/injured.
     
  32. so cal hawkfan

    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,417
    Likes Received:
    3,572
    Location:
    Whittier CA
    huh?
     
  33. Hwt1

    Hwt1 Rookie
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2013
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    20
    just a math check - wouldn't score be 17-12 (gave Beard 4 for decision)? Still need pin to win outright.
     
    blcoach80 and 1032004 like this.
  34. 255

    255 HR All-American
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2002
    Messages:
    2,602
    Likes Received:
    1,186
    saying turning guys eat clock at this level if you have to force it. If you can tilt and turn your way to a consistent major or tech, it is worth more than a handful for pins and decisions.
    I get his question. Not sure the disconnect.
     
  35. Grip220

    Grip220 HR MVP
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2014
    Messages:
    2,358
    Likes Received:
    3,782
    Location:
    Babylonia parts unknown
    He will get his takedowns and his tilts some by funk some by stink, the falls will come have no fear they cannot escape he is a small Bear out there. Mr. Lee is his name and I’m not quite sure you realize he Brings the pain.
    (I have no idea why I wrote this except it’s seemed appropriate)
     
    35 Grip220, Dec 4, 2019 at 6:34 PM
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019 at 7:00 PM
    Chuck C, el dub and shobart like this.
  36. Fluffles

    Fluffles Rookie
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2019
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    261
  37. Descat1

    Descat1 All-Conference
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2014
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    1,221
    Ironically, Lee was second on the team last year in pins and first on the team in Technical falls, so he had a pretty good balance I would say.... I think he had 7 pins last year and Alex had 8 for the team lead.
     
  38. 1032004

    1032004 Team MVP
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2019
    Messages:
    210
    Likes Received:
    126
    Good catch. Yeah I was messing with the outcomes and thought I might’ve missed a point somewhere but couldn’t find it.
     
  39. MilleGinja

    MilleGinja All-Conference
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2017
    Messages:
    358
    Likes Received:
    756
    I suspect the team will have a new leader in pins this year. Lee can still lead in TFs though.
     
    butchinmi likes this.
  40. Descat1

    Descat1 All-Conference
    Expand Collapse

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2014
    Messages:
    362
    Likes Received:
    1,221
    BIG CASS is going to get his falls.... He's been a pleasure to watch this year!
     

Share This Page