Lee

Ruinous

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I hesitate to ask, as some folks will inevitably consider this to be a negative post, but here goes:

Just wondering if others have considered the possibility that Spencer's ability to tilt most opponents at will leaves some team points on the board by earning TFs instead of pins in some cases?

Good problem to have I know, but the thought has popped into my head from time to time, so I thought I'd raise the question.
 

russelscout

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Dec 31, 2015
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I hesitate to ask, as some folks will inevitably consider this to be a negative post, but here goes:

Just wondering if others have considered the possibility that Spencer's ability to tilt most opponents at will leaves some team points on the board by earning TFs instead of pins in some cases?

Good problem to have I know, but the thought has popped into my head from time to time, so I thought I'd raise the question.
Pins are hard to come by, even someone as good as Lee. You can spend a whole period trying to secure a pin and end up with a dec. I like a guy who can guarantee the best chance of getting a tech or pin and that's what Lee does. Scores a ton, but will take the pin if it's there.
 

Monzon

HR Heisman
Nov 15, 2001
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Not concerned. He's getting major bonus, he's imposing his will early and often. Lee also has no issue running the half if he sees it.

It decreases the amount of points he can score in the 2nd / 3rd, confirming Flo's thoughts on 'the field'.
 
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dtripp26

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I hesitate to ask, as some folks will inevitably consider this to be a negative post, but here goes:

Just wondering if others have considered the possibility that Spencer's ability to tilt most opponents at will leaves some team points on the board by earning TFs instead of pins in some cases?

Good problem to have I know, but the thought has popped into my head from time to time, so I thought I'd raise the question.

I'll take 5 pts from Lee every single time. If we lose a dual where Lee scored a TF somebody else didn't do their job.
 

shobart

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I hesitate to ask, as some folks will inevitably consider this to be a negative post, but here goes:

Just wondering if others have considered the possibility that Spencer's ability to tilt most opponents at will leaves some team points on the board by earning TFs instead of pins in some cases?

Good problem to have I know, but the thought has popped into my head from time to time, so I thought I'd raise the question.
Not here to criticize you, but I think it's important to remember that Lee will TF guys that are ranked in the top 20...and that's a pretty frequent occurrence. Shoot, he TF'd Mackall from ISU in the first period and he's a potential AA candidate. My point is he's scoring a lot of team points against opponents in scenarios where it would be pretty normal to see a regular decision or major decision at best.

Just my two cents.
 

just_somebody

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I will never complain about a TF instead of a fall- especially in a tournament setting- end the match as quickly as you can, lest something funky happens.


I am now waiting for a situation where a match starts at 133, and Iowa is somehow down 5 and Iowa's fate rests on Lee sticking someone
 
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artradley

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Not here to criticize you, but I think it's important to remember that Lee will TF guys that are ranked in the top 20...and that's a pretty frequent occurrence. Shoot, he TF'd Mackall from ISU in the first period and he's a potential AA candidate. My point is he's scoring a lot of team points against opponents in scenarios where it would be pretty normal to see a regular decision or major decision at best.

Just my two cents.

He TF Lizak 15-0 for goodness sakes.
 
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1032004

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I will never complain about a TF instead of a fall- especially in a tournament setting- end the match as quickly as you can, lest something funky happens.


I am now waiting for a situation where a match starts at 133, and Iowa is somehow down 5 and Iowa's fate rests on Lee sticking someone

PSU :) ? These aren't really predictions but just possible scenario:

Desanto dec RBY 3-0 Iowa
Lee maj Murin 4-3 PSU
Lugo dec Verk 6-4 Iowa
Young dec Berge 9-4 Iowa
Marinelli dec Joseph 12-4 Iowa
Hall dec Kemerer 12-7 Iowa
Rasheed maj Brands/Wilcke 12-11 Iowa
Beard dec Warner 15-12 PSU
Cassar dec Cassioppi 18-12 PSU

First criteria is # of falls/FFT's/DQ's right so then a pin for Lee would win it?
 
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just_somebody

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PSU :) ? These aren't really predictions but just possible scenario:

Desanto dec RBY 3-0 Iowa
Lee maj Murin 4-3 PSU
Lugo dec Verk 6-4 Iowa
Young dec Berge 9-4 Iowa
Marinelli dec Joseph 12-4 Iowa
Hall dec Kemerer 12-7 Iowa
Rasheed maj Brands/Wilcke 12-11 Iowa
Beard dec Warner 15-12 PSU
Cassar dec Cassioppi 18-12 PSU

First criteria is # of falls/FFT's/DQ's right so then a pin for Lee would win it?

giphy.gif
 

shobart

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He TF Lizak 15-0 for goodness sakes.
Indeed he did. No discredit to the OP as I'm certainly a "there is not a stupid question" kind of guy, but I do think there's somewhat of a curse to being a generational type of talent wrestler. Granted, Lee has been dinged up a bit here and there/illness, etc., but Lee is just so dam good that people wonder if something is "off" if he wrestles a full match! Ha. Again, I'm not harping on the OP's question by any means, and shoot, I sometimes wondered if Nolf was hurt if he didn't have 8 takedowns in a match :)
 

1032004

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Indeed he did. No discredit to the OP as I'm certainly a "there is not a stupid question" kind of guy, but I do think there's somewhat of a curse to being a generational type of talent wrestler. Granted, Lee has been dinged up a bit here and there/illness, etc., but Lee is just so dam good that people wonder if something is "off" if he wrestles a full match! Ha. Again, I'm not harping on the OP's question by any means, and shoot, I sometimes wondered if Nolf was hurt if he didn't have 8 takedowns in a match :)

I actually think it's a fair question, but I'd say the real answer is I don't think there's many guys that he "should be" pinning that he isn't as a lot of the guys he's teching are actually pretty good. He did have 9 pins in 2018 and 8 in 2019, I don't know all the stats of everyone else but that does seem like quite a few. Even Cullen for example only got majored by NATO in 2017, and Luke Resnick of Lehigh was 4-17 last year but didn't get pinned at all. Lee probably "should have" pinned Alejandro Figueroa-Hernandez of CSUB and Tomas Gutierrez of Kent State last year, but that was the first competition of the season so he can probably get a pass for those.
 

shobart

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I actually think it's a fair question, but I'd say the real answer is I don't think there's many guys that he "should be" pinning that he isn't as a lot of the guys he's teching are actually pretty good. He did have 9 pins in 2018 and 8 in 2019, I don't know all the stats of everyone else but that does seem like quite a few. Even Cullen for example only got majored by NATO in 2017, and Luke Resnick of Lehigh was 4-17 last year but didn't get pinned at all. Lee probably "should have" pinned Alejandro Figueroa-Hernandez of CSUB and Tomas Gutierrez of Kent State last year, but that was the first competition of the season so he can probably get a pass for those.
Of course it's a fair question, but I think your response pretty much proved my point. "He can probably get a pass for those".....think about that statement for a second. Lee is so dam good that the general consensus is that he should be pinning just about everybody. Doing what Spencer Lee has done to his competition...particularly when it's mattered....is not the norm. If we all start to wonder why Spencer doesn't pin everyone and become concerned.....well...two years from now coming back down to Earth to "real life" when Spencer isn't our 25 pounder will be quite a disappointment.

Cheers
 

1032004

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Of course it's a fair question, but I think your response pretty much proved my point. "He can probably get a pass for those".....think about that statement for a second. Lee is so dam good that the general consensus is that he should be pinning just about everybody. Doing what Spencer Lee has done to his competition...particularly when it's mattered....is not the norm. If we all start to wonder why Spencer doesn't pin everyone and become concerned.....well...two years from now coming back down to Earth to "real life" when Spencer isn't our 25 pounder will be quite a disappointment.

Cheers

No actually that's not what I said at all. I pretty much looked at all of the guys he TF'ed since last year, and then looked to see if those guys were actually good. I really only saw those 2, from the first competition of the season, of guys that really aren't that good (by D1 standards). Obviously he shouldn't be pinning everyone, but it's not necessarily hating to think he "should be" pinning below average wrestlers (both of those guys have under .500 records for their career and have been pinned on multiple occasions).
 
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Ruinous

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Good thoughtful discussion all. A lot of good points made. Really appreciate the insight.
 

so cal hawkfan

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PSU :) ? These aren't really predictions but just possible scenario:

Desanto dec RBY 3-0 Iowa
Lee maj Murin 4-3 PSU
Lugo dec Verk 6-4 Iowa
Young dec Berge 9-4 Iowa
Marinelli dec Joseph 12-4 Iowa
Hall dec Kemerer 12-7 Iowa
Rasheed maj Brands/Wilcke 12-11 Iowa
Beard dec Warner 15-12 PSU
Cassar dec Cassioppi 18-12 PSU

First criteria is # of falls/FFT's/DQ's right so then a pin for Lee would win it?

While I wouldn’t expects Murin to beat Lee, his stingy defense will keep it close. The same goes for Wilcke/Brands. Rasheed health has been in question and others have gotten the starting nod in his stead. When he’s healthy I think it’s a 2-3 point win for him. Warner hasn’t looked great, but the last couple times he wrestled Beard, he hammered him. Admittedly those were freestyle matches over 2 years ago, but JWar owned him on their feet. Short response, I think Iowa wins this dual by 3-4 points.
 
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GogglesPaizano

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I hesitate to ask, as some folks will inevitably consider this to be a negative post, but here goes:

Just wondering if others have considered the possibility that Spencer's ability to tilt most opponents at will leaves some team points on the board by earning TFs instead of pins in some cases?

Good problem to have I know, but the thought has popped into my head from time to time, so I thought I'd raise the question.

Nope. Still on the very short list for the Hodge this year and will get more than his fair share of pins.
 

1032004

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While I wouldn’t expects Murin to beat Lee, his stingy defense will keep it close. The same goes for Wilcke/Brands. Rasheed health has been in question and others have gotten the starting nod in his stead. When he’s healthy I think it’s a 2-3 point win for him. Warner hasn’t looked great, but the last couple times he wrestled Beard, he hammered him. Admittedly those were freestyle matches over 2 years ago, but JWar owned him on their feet. Short response, I think Iowa wins this dual by 3-4 points.

I mostly agree, but none of those are sure things...Joseph could also beat Marinelli, someone else could get caught and pinned, etc. Was mostly just laying out a plausible scenario where they might need 6 from Lee.
 

GogglesPaizano

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While I wouldn’t expects Murin to beat Lee, his stingy defense will keep it close. The same goes for Wilcke/Brands. Rasheed health has been in question and others have gotten the starting nod in his stead. When he’s healthy I think it’s a 2-3 point win for him. Warner hasn’t looked great, but the last couple times he wrestled Beard, he hammered him. Admittedly those were freestyle matches over 2 years ago, but JWar owned him on their feet. Short response, I think Iowa wins this dual by 3-4 points.

Putting aside the on paper close matches for the moment, there are bigger issues at play. "If" PSU comes in healthy which means an improved Berge from last year up at 157 and Shak with a few duals under his belt in advance at 184, and .... Conel turns things around and is properly conditioned (or Beard's shirt gets pulled) at 197. Then I think it is a Penn State lean by 4+ points. If all three of those things don't come together then I think Iowa wins by at least 3 maybe much more. Sitting here in early December my odds of all three delivering for PSU are 50/50 at best.
 
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slushhead

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While I wouldn’t expects Murin to beat Lee, his stingy defense will keep it close. The same goes for Wilcke/Brands. Rasheed health has been in question and others have gotten the starting nod in his stead. When he’s healthy I think it’s a 2-3 point win for him. Warner hasn’t looked great, but the last couple times he wrestled Beard, he hammered him. Admittedly those were freestyle matches over 2 years ago, but JWar owned him on their feet. Short response, I think Iowa wins this dual by 3-4 points.

You want Wilcke going vs. a healthy Rasheed. I would expect Brands to get cradled.
 

shobart

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No actually that's not what I said at all. I pretty much looked at all of the guys he TF'ed since last year, and then looked to see if those guys were actually good. I really only saw those 2, from the first competition of the season, of guys that really aren't that good (by D1 standards). Obviously he shouldn't be pinning everyone, but it's not necessarily hating to think he "should be" pinning below average wrestlers (both of those guys have under .500 records for their career and have been pinned on multiple occasions).
Last comment as we're on the same team here bud, but when you're throwing statements around like "he can get a pass" you're setting your own level of expectations, and in this case with Lee...it's very high. Considering his level of talent, it's an easy thing to do as I even do it myself sometimes. Didn't think you were throwing shade on Spencer by any means.
 

so cal hawkfan

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Putting aside the on paper close matches for the moment, there are bigger issues at play. "If" PSU comes in healthy which means an improved Berge from last year up at 157 and Shak with a few duals under his belt in advance at 184, and .... Conel turns things around and is properly conditioned (or Beard's shirt gets pulled) at 197. Then I think it is a Penn State lean by 4+ points. If all three of those things don't come together then I think Iowa wins by at least 3 maybe much more. Sitting here in early December my odds of all three delivering for PSU are 50/50 at best.

I agree with this for the most part. A lot has to go right for PSU. Iowa is wrestling well right now, but things can change. PSU hasn’t had the success they have had by being lucky, they know how to win. I just don’t see Berge (recovering from a concussion) beating Young.
 
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255

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Feb 23, 2002
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I hesitate to ask, as some folks will inevitably consider this to be a negative post, but here goes:

Just wondering if others have considered the possibility that Spencer's ability to tilt most opponents at will leaves some team points on the board by earning TFs instead of pins in some cases?

Good problem to have I know, but the thought has popped into my head from time to time, so I thought I'd raise the question.

I understand the question. I am feeling 4/5 every time be sometimes pins and risking decisions taking the time to pin. Math works out to the tf guy.
Good questions.
 

bawlmerhawk

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No problem at all with a TF. It usually happens in the 1st or 2nd period, which means a at least 2 min. where Lee doesn't get tired/injured.
 

Hwt1

Rookie
Mar 13, 2013
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PSU :) ? These aren't really predictions but just possible scenario:

Desanto dec RBY 3-0 Iowa
Lee maj Murin 4-3 PSU
Lugo dec Verk 6-4 Iowa
Young dec Berge 9-4 Iowa
Marinelli dec Joseph 12-4 Iowa
Hall dec Kemerer 12-7 Iowa
Rasheed maj Brands/Wilcke 12-11 Iowa
Beard dec Warner 15-12 PSU
Cassar dec Cassioppi 18-12 PSU

First criteria is # of falls/FFT's/DQ's right so then a pin for Lee would win it?

just a math check - wouldn't score be 17-12 (gave Beard 4 for decision)? Still need pin to win outright.
 

255

HR All-American
Feb 23, 2002
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saying turning guys eat clock at this level if you have to force it. If you can tilt and turn your way to a consistent major or tech, it is worth more than a handful for pins and decisions.
I get his question. Not sure the disconnect.
 

Grip220

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He will get his takedowns and his tilts some by funk some by stink, the falls will come have no fear they cannot escape he is a small Bear out there. Mr. Lee is his name and I’m not quite sure you realize he Brings the pain.
(I have no idea why I wrote this except it’s seemed appropriate)
 
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Descat1

HR All-State
Aug 28, 2014
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I hesitate to ask, as some folks will inevitably consider this to be a negative post, but here goes:

Just wondering if others have considered the possibility that Spencer's ability to tilt most opponents at will leaves some team points on the board by earning TFs instead of pins in some cases?

Good problem to have I know, but the thought has popped into my head from time to time, so I thought I'd raise the question.
Ironically, Lee was second on the team last year in pins and first on the team in Technical falls, so he had a pretty good balance I would say.... I think he had 7 pins last year and Alex had 8 for the team lead.
 

1032004

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just a math check - wouldn't score be 17-12 (gave Beard 4 for decision)? Still need pin to win outright.

Good catch. Yeah I was messing with the outcomes and thought I might’ve missed a point somewhere but couldn’t find it.
 

MilleGinja

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Ironically, Lee was second on the team last year in pins and first on the team in Technical falls, so he had a pretty good balance I would say.... I think he had 7 pins last year and Alex had 8 for the team lead.
I suspect the team will have a new leader in pins this year. Lee can still lead in TFs though.
 
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Descat1

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BIG CASS is going to get his falls.... He's been a pleasure to watch this year!