Letter of the Holy Father to the Bishops of the United States of America

[Aardvark86]

Why did you convert?

Truth is like running water, it finds a way in eventually.

Seriously though, a lot of things that probably can’t fit in a post, but it wasnt impetuously. Nor was it political or a reaction to modern Methodism. It was a positive choice of something I was “for” rather than against.

Among other things, after lots of exposure to it, I came to believe (1) it had the right “focus” on the relation of god and man rather than ‘merely” being a philosophy of living, (2) it had the right approach in how it reasoned theologically and morally (ie, collectively, with an eye toward tradition as a mere reflection of belief, and over hundreds of years), (3) I was incredibly impressed (and personally experienced) how powerfully and seriously it takes the concept of forgiveness, snd (4) it doesn’t get enough credit for how balanced it is between doctrine and mercy, at least when it is at its best.

 

[bcherod]

Parable of the Talents​

The "Parable of the Talents", in Matthew 25:14–30 tells of a master who was leaving his house to travel, and, before leaving, entrusted his property to his servants. According to the abilities of each man, one servant received five talents, the second had received two, and the third received only one. The property entrusted to the three servants was worth eight talents, where a talent was a significant amount of money. Upon returning home, after a long absence, the master asks his three servants for an account of the talents he entrusted to them. The first and the second servants explain that they each put their talents to work, and have doubled the value of the property with which they were entrusted; each servant was rewarded:


The third servant, however, had merely hidden his talent, burying it in the ground, and was punished & kicked out by his master:

My mother pounded that one into my head.

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

Truth is like running water, it finds a way in eventually.

Seriously though, a lot of things that probably can’t fit in a post, but it wasnt impetuously. Nor was it political or a reaction to modern Methodism. It was a positive choice of something I was “for” rather than against.

Among other things, after lots of exposure to it, I came to believe (1) it had the right “focus” on the relation of god and man rather than ‘merely” being a philosophy of living, (2) it had the right approach in how it reasoned theologically and morally (ie, collectively, with an eye toward tradition as a mere reflection of belief, and over hundreds of years), (3) I was incredibly impressed (and personally experienced) how powerfully and seriously it takes the concept of forgiveness, snd (4) it doesn’t get enough credit for how balanced it is between doctrine and mercy, at least when it is at its best.

Wow, that’s cool. @BrianNole777 will be tickled pink to read all of that.

I can’t say I understand the difference or care for any religion at all, but I hope it serves you and all other Catholics of goodwill very well.

 

[bcherod]

Truth is like running water, it finds a way in eventually.

Seriously though, a lot of things that probably can’t fit in a post, but it wasnt impetuously. Nor was it political or a reaction to modern Methodism. It was a positive choice of something I was “for” rather than against.

Among other things, after lots of exposure to it, I came to believe (1) it had the right “focus” on the relation of god and man rather than ‘merely” being a philosophy of living, (2) it had the right approach in how it reasoned theologically and morally (ie, collectively, with an eye toward tradition as a mere reflection of belief, and over hundreds of years), (3) I was incredibly impressed (and personally experienced) how powerfully and seriously it takes the concept of forgiveness, snd (4) it doesn’t get enough credit for how balanced it is between doctrine and mercy, at least when it is at its best.

Interesting.

I was raised in the Emory divinity school tradition. Great grandfather, grandfather, and all great uncles.

Growing up I was always intrigued with Catholicism because I didn’t understand why they told us we were all going to hell because we were Protestant.

In my 30’s, I decided to become Episcopalian because I loved my church, St Bartholomews in NYC. It was not a high church.

But my rigorous Virginia friends declared it was too Methodist for them.

We gravitate to what meets our needs at the time.

 

[Aardvark86]

Wow, that’s cool. @BrianNole777 will be tickled pink to read all of that.

I can’t say I understand the difference or care for any religion at all, but I hope it serves you and all other Catholics of goodwill very well.

Thanks for the kind words Ragnar, and for asking. There are some here who, if they asked, I would not have responded to. I’m sure we’ll hear from them in a page or two.

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

Sorry, Papa Frank. But invaders are not immigrants. And people who break laws are criminals. Therefore, your letter will be deposited appropriately.

🥾
📝
🗑️

 

[Aardvark86]

Interesting.

I was raised in the Emory divinity school tradition. Great grandfather, grandfather, and all great uncles.

Growing up I was always intrigued with Catholicism because I didn’t understand why they told us we were all going to hell because we were Protestant.

In my 30’s, I decided to become Episcopalian because I loved my church, St Bartholomews in NYC. It was not a high church.

But my rigorous Virginia friends declared it was too Methodist for them.

We gravitate to what meets our needs at the time.

By chance, have you read Pelikan’s The Christian Tradition?

 

[Aardvark86]

Interesting.

I was raised in the Emory divinity school tradition. Great grandfather, grandfather, and all great uncles.

Growing up I was always intrigued with Catholicism because I didn’t understand why they told us we were all going to hell because we were Protestant.

In my 30’s, I decided to become Episcopalian because I loved my church, St Bartholomews in NYC. It was not a high church.

But my rigorous Virginia friends declared it was too Methodist for them.

We gravitate to what meets our needs at the time.

Yeah v-ii sorta refocused a bit on “unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam”.

Mrs a, a cradle catholic, was of that generation that was formed poorly and told to run home from school so the Protestant public school kids didn’t beat them up.

As to high church low church, what’s important is that you don’t view high church ritual as either magic or doctrine itself. What it is though, is symbolic practice to remind us of the underlying beliefs that do matter. For example, I could never go to Latin Mass every week. Ever. But every once in a while, I do like it (even if I don’t always know what’s going on), because it really reinforces the sacrificial and other nature of what we believe to be happening at the altar, and of how the church has understood itself as a community for the better part of a thousand or two years

 

[bcherod]

By chance, have you read Pelikan’s The Christian Tradition?

I shall look for it and investigate.

 

[Aardvark86]

I shall look for it and investigate.

Probably the greatest history of Christian doctrine. (Not just Catholic). Pelikan was raised Lutheran and converted to orthodoxy. For something lighter of his and not nearly as lengthy (but equally interesting as history), consider his Jesus thru the centuries: his place in the history of culture.

I love this intro paragraph:

Regardless of what anyone may personally think or believe about him, Jesus of Nazareth has been the dominant figure in western culture for almost twenty centuries. If it were possible, with some sort of super magnet, to pull up out of that history every scrap of metal bearing at least a trace of his name, how much would be left? It is from his birth that most of the human race dates its calendars, it is by his name that millions curse and in his name that millions pray.

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

“10. Let us ask Our Lady of Guadalupe to protect individuals and families who live in fear or pain due to migration and/or deportation.”

This is poor theology right here. The Virgin Mary is not divine and does not possess this power, although the Latino demographic does wrongfully deify Our Lady of Guadalupe. She is merely a saint to whom we pray for intercession. This actually feeds the misconceptions which some non-Catholic Christians have about Catholicism, and undermines centuries of work by Catholic theologians and apologists. Nice going, Frank. SMH.

 

[Aardvark86]

“10. Let us ask Our Lady of Guadalupe to protect individuals and families who live in fear or pain due to migration and/or deportation.”

This is poor theology right here. The Virgin Mary is not divine and does not possess this power, although the Latino demographic does wrongfully deify Our Lady of Guadalupe. She is merely a saint to whom we pray for intercession. This actually feeds the misconceptions which some non-Catholic Christians have about Catholicism, and undermines centuries of work by Catholic theologians and apologists. Nice going, Frank. SMH.

You are technically correct that we merely pray to her to pray for us, but I’m pretty sure Francis knows that. But to my earlier point and yours, his communication can indeed be sloppy and imprecise. That’s really not a secret.

 

[ItsinourDNA]

And to think that some of the libbies on here contend that Jesus would never be a conservative.
Are you Catholic? I doubt it.

Jesus exhibited empathy

Do today's conservatives exhibit empathy?

 

[bcherod]

Wow, that’s cool. @BrianNole777 will be tickled pink to read all of that.

I can’t say I understand the difference or care for any religion at all, but I hope it serves you and all other Catholics of goodwill very well.

Brian will have a lot to say. He’s MIA.

I’ll message him from the Nole board to check.

 

[hawkeyetraveler]

Truth is like running water, it finds a way in eventually.

Seriously though, a lot of things that probably can’t fit in a post, but it wasnt impetuously. Nor was it political or a reaction to modern Methodism. It was a positive choice of something I was “for” rather than against.

Among other things, after lots of exposure to it, I came to believe (1) it had the right “focus” on the relation of god and man rather than ‘merely” being a philosophy of living, (2) it had the right approach in how it reasoned theologically and morally (ie, collectively, with an eye toward tradition as a mere reflection of belief, and over hundreds of years), (3) I was incredibly impressed (and personally experienced) how powerfully and seriously it takes the concept of forgiveness, snd (4) it doesn’t get enough credit for how balanced it is between doctrine and mercy, at least when it is at its best.

In other words…she was hot and she was Catholic.

A man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do.

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

Jesus exhibited empathy

Do today's conservatives exhibit empathy?

Jesus said to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I presently have no plans to travel to Mexico, Guatemala, Colombia, etc., but if I did, I would enter through the proper ports of entry and comply with all applicable laws. I would also remain there no longer than authorized. I certainly wouldn’t sneak in and set up shop as though I owned the place. People entering the USA need to do the same, and those who haven’t need to leave and come back in the legal way.

 

[RagnarLothbrok]

Brian will have a lot to say. He’s MIA.

I’ll message him from the Nole board to check.

Please do.

I like that dude.

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

You are technically correct that we merely pray to her to pray for us, but I’m pretty sure Francis knows that. But to my earlier point and yours, his communication can indeed be sloppy and imprecise. That’s really not a secret.

The Jesuits are supposedly the smartest people in Catholicism (just ask them). The most accomplished Jesuit in the history of the order should not make such a fundamental error.

 

[Aardvark86]

The Jesuits are supposedly the smartest people in Catholicism (just ask them). The most accomplished Jesuit in the history of the order should not make such a fundamental error.

Personally, I don’t recall the part about papal infallibility extending to linguistic skills, but maybe that’s just me as a convert. (And for the record none I’ve met can hold a candle to Benedict on that front. And I’ll take the Dominicans actually for technical accuracy notwithstanding their tendency to be pedantic).

 

[ItsinourDNA]

Jesus said to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I presently have no plans to travel to Mexico, Guatemala, Colombia, etc., but if I did, I would enter through the proper ports of entry and comply with all applicable laws. I would also remain there no longer than authorized. I certainly wouldn’t sneak in and set up shop as though I owned the place. People entering the USA need to do the same, and those who haven’t need to leave and come back in the legal way.

Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Does that jive with today's conservatives?

"Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth."

"Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven"

I'm just not getting conservative (or should we say republican) vibes here from this guy.

 

[BrianNole777]

Brian will have a lot to say. He’s MIA.

I’ll message him from the Nole board to check.

I have no comment.

 

[Aardvark86]

I have no comment.

What do you have the flu or something?

 

[bcherod]

The Jesuits are supposedly the smartest people in Catholicism (just ask them). The most accomplished Jesuit in the history of the order should not make such a fundamental error.

Actually the Jesuits were the educators. They were sent early on by the French and Spanish. The colonies at the time were mostly Protestant, except for Maryland.

Their goal was to Christianize the Natives. Prior to the French and Indian War, and the revolution, colonists were not allowed to cross the Appalachians.

Meanwhile the French came down through Canada for fur trading. So the Jesuits were hanging out there near the Mississippi River to the north.

 

[bcherod]

I was getting worried about you Brian.

 

[BrianNole777]

Actually the Jesuits were the educators. They were sent early on by the French and Spanish. The colonies at the time were mostly Protestant, except for Maryland.

Their goal was to Christianize the Natives. Prior to the French and Indian War, and the revolution, colonists were not allowed to cross the Appalachians.

Meanwhile the French came down through Canada for fur trading. So the Jesuits were hanging out there near the Mississippi River to the north.

I'm not sure if you heard of this group. They had it rough.

The North American Martyrs

Saint of the day: The North American Martyrs - Catholic News Agency

www.catholicnewsagency.com

 

[BrianNole777]

What do you have the flu or something?

I can see both sides. Pope Francis wants to advocate for migrants and the U.S. government wants to deport migrants that entered illegally.

It's a pickle.

 

[Hammerhead02]

Thanks for the kind words Ragnar, and for asking. There are some here who, if they asked, I would not have responded to. I’m sure we’ll hear from them in a page or two.

🙄

 

[BrianNole777]

“10. Let us ask Our Lady of Guadalupe to protect individuals and families who live in fear or pain due to migration and/or deportation.”

This is poor theology right here. The Virgin Mary is not divine and does not possess this power, although the Latino demographic does wrongfully deify Our Lady of Guadalupe. She is merely a saint to whom we pray for intercession. This actually feeds the misconceptions which some non-Catholic Christians have about Catholicism, and undermines centuries of work by Catholic theologians and apologists. Nice going, Frank. SMH.

I don't think that Pope Francis quote infers that the Virgin Mary is divine.

We also ask our guardian angels to protect us and they're definitely not seen as divine. They're merely servants of God like the Virgin Mary.

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Does that jive with today's conservatives?

"Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth."

"Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven"

I'm just not getting conservative (or should we say republican) vibes here from this guy.

And I’m not getting an “anything goes” vibe from him either.

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

I don't think that Pope Francis quote infers that the Virgin Mary is divine.

We also ask our guardian angels to protect us and they're definitely not seen as divine. They're merely servants of God like the Virgin Mary.

I don’t think that’s what he meant either, but it is what he wrote. The point being that this pope is prone to sloppiness.

BTW, angels also don’t have divine power, but are merely conduits for God. Even St. Michael….. by the power of God, cast into hell Satan, and all the evil spirits, who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls….

 

[BrianNole777]

I don’t think that’s what he meant either, but it is what he wrote. The point being that this pope is prone to sloppiness.

BTW, angels also don’t have divine power, but are merely conduits for God. Even St. Michael….. by the power of God, cast into hell Satan, and all the evil spirits, who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls….

Did his letter state that the Virgin Mary is divine?

I missed that if it did.

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

Did his letter state that the Virgin Mary is divine?

I missed that if it did.

It called on Guadalupe for protection. She possesses no such power. I know that’s not what he meant. It’s just his typical sloppiness.

 

[BrianNole777]

It called on Guadalupe for protection. She possesses no such power. I know that’s not what he meant. It’s just his typical sloppiness.

I think she does.

She squashes the devil's head according to exorcists and saints like Padre Pio.

 

[ItsinourDNA]

And I’m not getting an “anything goes” vibe from him either.

Sure!

But I'm glad we can agree, since you didn't refute. Jesus exhibited values detested by today's conservatives.

 

[Odinorske]

Probably beating @BrianNole777 to the punch on this one.

Dear Brothers in the Episcopate,

I am writing today to address a few words to you in these delicate moments that you are living as Pastors of the People of God who walk together in the United States of America.

1. The journey from slavery to freedom that the People of Israel traveled, as narrated in the Book of Exodus, invites us to look at the reality of our time, so clearly marked by the phenomenon of migration, as a decisive moment in history to reaffirm not only our faith in a God who is always close, incarnate, migrant and refugee, but also the infinite and transcendent dignity of every human person. [1]

2. These words with which I begin are not an artificial construct. Even a cursory examination of the Church’s social doctrine emphatically shows that Jesus Christ is the true Emmanuel (cf. Mt 1:23); he did not live apart from the difficult experience of being expelled from his own land because of an imminent risk to his life, and from the experience of having to take refuge in a society and a culture foreign to his own. The Son of God, in becoming man, also chose to live the drama of immigration. I like to recall, among other things, the words with which Pope Pius XII began his Apostolic Constitution on the Care of Migrants, which is considered the “Magna Carta” of the Church’s thinking on migration:

“The family of Nazareth in exile, Jesus, Mary and Joseph, emigrants in Egypt and refugees there to escape the wrath of an ungodly king, are the model, the example and the consolation of emigrants and pilgrims of every age and country, of all refugees of every condition who, beset by persecution or necessity, are forced to leave their homeland, beloved family and dear friends for foreign lands.” [2]



3. Likewise, Jesus Christ, loving everyone with a universal love, educates us in the permanent recognition of the dignity of every human being, without exception. In fact, when we speak of “infinite and transcendent dignity,” we wish to emphasize that the most decisive value possessed by the human person surpasses and sustains every other juridical consideration that can be made to regulate life in society. Thus, all the Christian faithful and people of good will are called upon to consider the legitimacy of norms and public policies in the light of the dignity of the person and his or her fundamental rights, not vice versa.

4. I have followed closely the major crisis that is taking place in the United States with the initiation of a program of mass deportations. The rightly formed conscience cannot fail to make a critical judgment and express its disagreement with any measure that tacitly or explicitly identifies the illegal status of some migrants with criminality. At the same time, one must recognize the right of a nation to defend itself and keep communities safe from those who have committed violent or serious crimes while in the country or prior to arrival. That said, the act of deporting people who in many cases have left their own land for reasons of extreme poverty, insecurity, exploitation, persecution or serious deterioration of the environment, damages the dignity of many men and women, and of entire families, and places them in a state of particular vulnerability and defenselessness.

5. This is not a minor issue: an authentic rule of law is verified precisely in the dignified treatment that all people deserve, especially the poorest and most marginalized. The true common good is promoted when society and government, with creativity and strict respect for the rights of all — as I have affirmed on numerous occasions — welcomes, protects, promotes and integrates the most fragile, unprotected and vulnerable. This does not impede the development of a policy that regulates orderly and legal migration. However, this development cannot come about through the privilege of some and the sacrifice of others. What is built on the basis of force, and not on the truth about the equal dignity of every human being, begins badly and will end badly.

6. Christians know very well that it is only by affirming the infinite dignity of all that our own identity as persons and as communities reaches its maturity. Christian love is not a concentric expansion of interests that little by little extend to other persons and groups. In other words: the human person is not a mere individual, relatively expansive, with some philanthropic feelings! The human person is a subject with dignity who, through the constitutive relationship with all, especially with the poorest, can gradually mature in his identity and vocation. The true ordo amoris that must be promoted is that which we discover by meditating constantly on the parable of the “Good Samaritan” (cf. Lk 10:25-37), that is, by meditating on the love that builds a fraternity open to all, without exception. [3]

7. But worrying about personal, community or national identity, apart from these considerations, easily introduces an ideological criterion that distorts social life and imposes the will of the strongest as the criterion of truth.

8. I recognize your valuable efforts, dear brother bishops of the United States, as you work closely with migrants and refugees, proclaiming Jesus Christ and promoting fundamental human rights. God will richly reward all that you do for the protection and defense of those who are considered less valuable, less important or less human!

9. I exhort all the faithful of the Catholic Church, and all men and women of good will, not to give in to narratives that discriminate against and cause unnecessary suffering to our migrant and refugee brothers and sisters. With charity and clarity we are all called to live in solidarity and fraternity, to build bridges that bring us ever closer together, to avoid walls of ignominy and to learn to give our lives as Jesus Christ gave his for the salvation of all.

10. Let us ask Our Lady of Guadalupe to protect individuals and families who live in fear or pain due to migration and/or deportation. May the “Virgen morena”, who knew how to reconcile peoples when they were at enmity, grant us all to meet again as brothers and sisters, within her embrace, and thus take a step forward in the construction of a society that is more fraternal, inclusive and respectful of the dignity of all.

Fraternally,

Francis

From the Vatican, 10 February 2025

The Red Pope.

 

[Odinorske]

Sure!

But I'm glad we can agree, since you didn't refute. Jesus exhibited values detested by today's conservatives.

Balderdash

 

[soonerinlOUisiana]

Sure!

But I'm glad we can agree, since you didn't refute. Jesus exhibited values detested by today's conservatives.

What values of Jesus are detested by conservatives? Lawlessness? Forced wealth redistribution? confiscatory taxation? Killing babies in the womb?

 

[goldmom]

I’m sure Jesus would be Team MAGA. No doubt about it.

No one can say if Jesus would be MAGA or a supporter of the left.
Not even Pope Francis.

 

[goldmom]

You’re a shitty catholic imo. WTF does the bolded even fvcking mean?

I am a shitty Catholic. Damn is it that obvious?

 

[goldmom]

Why did you convert?

He got bored with the covered dish pot lucks at the John Wesley Fellowships?
I kid I kid!!!