Muslims Denied Prayer Breaks

[iammrhawkeyes]

It's not my personal stance. It's my understanding of how the law works. I've said repeatedly if you don't like it, change it. But don't bitch to me that a bunch of conservative Christians passed a law that now applies to Muslims. I think we should enforce what is on the books. That's just good citizenship. Why don't you join me in standing up for rule of law?

That's what this is about? Jeez. Somehow I don't think you really mean that across the board. Their demands, while logically possible(lol), are entirely unreasonable. I would never hire someone with that kind of liability (religious or otherwise) to the business.

 

[naturalmwa]

That's what this is about? Jeez. Somehow I don't think you really mean that across the board. Their demands, while logically possible(lol), are entirely unreasonable. I would never hire someone with that kind of liability (religious or otherwise) to the business.

I think there is a law that addresses your solution too.

 

[iammrhawkeyes]

I think there is a law that addresses your solution too.

Which one? Nice work here. LOL.

 

[naturalmwa]

Which one? Nice work here. LOL.

There are laws about discriminating based on religion. Thanks for the compliment, I think I've acquitted myself well here too.

 

[22*43*51]

It took six pages, but it seems we have at least converted the HROT atheists to full blown Muslims.

We're all theological now!

 

[naturalmwa]

It took six pages, but it seems we have at least converted the HROT atheists to full blown Muslims.

We're all theological now!

It is shocking how disrespectful you are to religion. You're almost at my level.

 

[iammrhawkeyes]

There are laws about discriminating based on religion. Thanks for the compliment, I think I've acquitted myself well here too.

You're welcome. I don't discriminate based on religion. Only productivity.

 

[naturalmwa]

You're welcome. I don't discriminate based on religion. Only productivity.

In that case I don't think you offered a solution.

 

[artradley]

I think the disagreements I have with others in this thread is based upon our definitions of what is considered reasonable.

The thing is, I've mentioned several times that I lean towards the employer in this case -- I agree that what they are requesting seems likely to be unreasonable. I'm just saying that the law does state that reasonable accommodations must be made, in contrast to posters who are saying that employers do NOT have to make any accommodations, an all.

 

[THE_DEVIL]

Didn't read entire thread so siap-

Religion doesn't belong in the workplace at all. (imho)

 

[The Tradition]

Didn't read entire thread so siap-

Religion doesn't belong in the workplace at all. (imho)

Requiring absolutely no discussion of religion or display of faith would favor the rights of the non-religious over those of the faithful. There has to be some sort of balance.

 

[herecomethehawkeyes]

The thing is, I've mentioned several times that I lean towards the employer in this case -- I agree that what they are requesting seems likely to be unreasonable. I'm just saying that the law does state that reasonable accommodations must be made, in contrast to posters who are saying that employers do NOT have to make any accommodations, an all.

I think we are in agreement
for the record, I am not saying that (as much as my personal opinions say otherwise) the employers have provided a place for them to pray (reasonable). if break times could be shifted 15-20 minutes to accommodate this, most reasonable people would be fine with it if it doesn't interfere with production schedules.

 

[herecomethehawkeyes]

I think that fair. The specifics of this case may make the religious accomidation unreasonable. I assume some authority with better access to all the peticulars will decide that. What we are in a position to debate is the general concept of religious accomidation. I'm personally against the concept, but I recognize it is objectively a rule on the books that should be followed until changed. I know if this was a Christian group, I would have many allies in this thread supporting the religious accomidation.

i have no problem with legally providing accommodation (as much as I personally do not agree with it). A place is provided for them to pray. I don't have a problem with somebody in a cubicle farm who has their partitions adorned with a religious symbol or two (i am not as sensitive about that stuff as some other non believers are). I will concede that the employer put themselves in a tough position by originally allowing extra time for prayer.

I do however think that religious people have to decide whether or not the place they choose employment in would lead to conflicts to their faith. for example, If a schedule involves working days that may be considered sacred and the use of paid leave for those days can not be approved, that person needs to decide if that is an environment they are able to work with. If you cannot fulfill duties because they go against your beliefs, you probably shouldn't accept employment with that company.

 

[naturalmwa]

i have no problem with legally providing accommodation (as much as I personally do not agree with it). A place is provided for them to pray. I don't have a problem with somebody in a cubicle farm who has their partitions adorned with a religious symbol or two (i am not as sensitive about that stuff as some other non believers are). I will concede that the employer put themselves in a tough position by originally allowing extra time for prayer.

I do however think that religious people have to decide whether or not the place they choose employment in would lead to conflicts to their faith. for example, If a schedule involves working days that may be considered sacred and the use of paid leave for those days can not be approved, that person needs to decide if that is an environment they are able to work with. If you cannot fulfill duties because they go against your beliefs, you probably shouldn't accept employment with that company.

I personally think you are correct in how the world should work. I don't think this is quite how the world does work.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

You're welcome. I don't discriminate based on religion. Only productivity.

I don't ask religion. I ask if there are any days you can't work.

I don't ask religion. I ask if you can accept the company break schedule.

I don't ask religion. I ask if there are any people or products you would be unwilling or unable to work with.

And so on.

Religion should be irrelevant. As long as it seems irrelevant, I don't care what your religion happens to be.

 

[dbq hawk 32]

No I have not. Honest question, do you think these Muslims are asking the company to do something that is a logical impossibility?

Is it impossible, no. Is it unreasonable for a myriad of reasons, yes.

A: the times for dawn and dusk change as the year goes on
B: in factories breaks are scheduled to break up the day, often for safety reasons. Changing the breaks for an entire factory (sometimes hundreds of people) so a couple of people can pray is unreasonable. It can pose safety issues, production issues, shipping issues, etc.
C: It is the same reason that plants aren't shut down for all holy days of obligation, wal mart isn't closed for easter sunday, and I still have to teach on Good Friday and All Souls Day.

Example: Sunrise today was at 7:25 and sunset was at 5:01.
Most factories will work 7:30 - 3:30 , 3:30 to 11:30, 11:30 to 7:30 or something similar. The times for sunrise/sunset can move from one shift to another depending on the time of year. It is often right around the beginning or end of a shift, which would result in little to no spacing.

 

[naturalmwa]

Is it impossible, no. Is it unreasonable for a myriad of reasons, yes.

A: the times for dawn and dusk change as the year goes on
B: in factories breaks are scheduled to break up the day, often for safety reasons. Changing the breaks for an entire factory (sometimes hundreds of people) so a couple of people can pray is unreasonable. It can pose safety issues, production issues, shipping issues, etc.
C: It is the same reason that plants aren't shut down for all holy days of obligation, wal mart isn't closed for easter sunday, and I still have to teach on Good Friday and All Souls Day.

Example: Sunrise today was at 7:25 and sunset was at 5:01.
Most factories will work 7:30 - 3:30 , 3:30 to 11:30, 11:30 to 7:30 or something similar. The times for sunrise/sunset can move from one shift to another depending on the time of year. It is often right around the beginning or end of a shift, which would result in little to no spacing.

A isn't a factor as has been explained a half dozen times in this thread. C isn't the same, no one is asking the plant to close. B might be true, but we don't know that and the plants own actions calls that into question. We don't have the specific facts to argue the reasonability of a prayer break for this particular factory. We know at one time the factory thought it was reasonable and now they don't.

What we do know is the law calls for reasonable religious accommodation. We know this particular religion calls for general time periods when God must be contacted. How would you reasonably accommodate that if not to give them some short break during those time periods? Your position appears to be we simply should not accommodate them. I'm not sure effectively outlawing a religion is a reasonable action under the law either. I bet a compromise could be found. Why do I think that? Because the factory had found a way to accommodate them in the past.

 

[The Tradition]

I don't ask religion. I ask if there are any days you can't work.

And that's when the Seventh Day Adventist tells you she can't work from Friday night at sundown until Saturday night at sundown.

Because you asked and she answered, expect to hear from the EEOC if you don't offer her the job (without the requirement to work on Saturdays).

 

[artradley]

A isn't a factor as has been explained a half dozen times in this thread. C isn't the same, no one is asking the plant to close. B might be true, but we don't know that and the plants own actions calls that into question. We don't have the specific facts to argue the reasonability of a prayer break for this particular factory. We know at one time the factory thought it was reasonable and now they don't.

What we do know is the law calls for reasonable religious accommodation. We know this particular religion calls for general time periods when God must be contacted. How would you reasonably accommodate that if not to give them some short break during those time periods? Your position appears to be we simply should not accommodate them. I'm not sure effectively outlawing a religion is a reasonable action under the law either. I bet a compromise could be found. Why do I think that? Because the factory had found a way to accommodate them in the past.

The part I'm missing -- and perhaps there is more about this story that I haven't seen -- is the offer on the part of the Muslims to have their prayers within a broader range of time, to compromise on the breaks. What I have read is that they were taking unscheduled breaks, and the company said they needed to do their praying during the regularly scheduled break times. I haven't seen where any kind of compromise was offered.

The unscheduled breaks seems to pretty clearly be unreasonable.

 

[naturalmwa]

The part I'm missing -- and perhaps there is more about this story that I haven't seen -- is the offer on the part of the Muslims to have their prayers within a broader range of time, to compromise on the breaks. What I have read is that they were taking unscheduled breaks, and the company said they needed to do their praying during the regularly scheduled break times. I haven't seen where any kind of compromise was offered.

The unscheduled breaks seems to pretty clearly be unreasonable.

I'm basing that on SIXERS24's posts in this thread describing the religious rules. There are over a billion Muslims on the planet. Some must work in assembly plants. This issue must have been resolved many times. Our laws say we have a duty to resolve this in favor of the religion if at all reasonable. I bet we have the brainpower to accomplish that.

 

[TJ8869]

I'm basing that on SIXERS24's posts in this thread describing the religious rules. There are over a billion Muslims on the planet. Some must work in assembly plants. This issue must have been resolved many times. Our laws say we have a duty to resolve this in favor of the religion if at all reasonable. I bet we have the brainpower to accomplish that.

Most of those billion Muslims live in countries where the vast majority of the population is Muslim. So while there certainly are other Muslims working on assembly lines, most of them probably work in places where the entire line is Muslim and it's no big deal for everyone to stop at the same time to pray.

People keep pointing out the fact that prayer times change seasonally and you keep dismissing that point as irrelevant because they have a 90 minute window to pray. But I think it is relevant because prayer times change by several hours from winter to summer and back again to winter. And it's not just the sunrise and sunset times that change. All the prayer times fluctuate because all of them are based on the sun's position in the sky, which obviously changes throughout the year. In some cases you would need to vary break times by as much as 2 or 3 hours over the course of 6 months, even with the 90-minute window.

The company has demonstrated a willingness to cooperate with their needs. They provide them transportation to and from work and have even provided them with a designated prayer room. It's not like management is trying to be difficult.

There are apps that show you when all the prayer times are throughout the year in any location. I think the company should sit down with the Muslims and try to map out a schedule for breaks, but I don't think they should be expected to make extreme changes to their break schedule.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

I'm basing that on SIXERS24's posts in this thread describing the religious rules. There are over a billion Muslims on the planet. Some must work in assembly plants. This issue must have been resolved many times. Our laws say we have a duty to resolve this in favor of the religion if at all reasonable. I bet we have the brainpower to accomplish that.

That raises a different question. In this particular case the owner will probably say he has made reasonable adjustments to deal with this while the employees haven't made any adjustments to resolve the problem. Even if that is not true in this case, it's probably true in some cases. So the question is: does the burden ever shift to the worker to come up with a reasonable solution?

I'm generally quick to say that if an employer can't make a profit without exploiting his workers - e.g., by refusing to pay a living wage - maybe he doesn't deserve to stay in business. But is this that sort of exploitation? It doesn't taste like it to me.

Beyond that, I still wonder about a point I raised previously - namely what if you have other religious folks whose requirements conflict with the solution that would fix the first group's problems? Do you ever, for example, get to say "I can't satisfy both the Muslims and the Hindus, so I'm firing one group"?

 

[naturalmwa]

Most of those billion Muslims live in countries where the vast majority of the population is Muslim. So while there certainly are other Muslims working on assembly lines, most of them probably work in places where the entire line is Muslim and it's no big deal for everyone to stop at the same time to pray.

People keep pointing out the fact that prayer times change seasonally and you keep dismissing that point as irrelevant because they have a 90 minute window to pray. But I think it is relevant because prayer times change by several hours from winter to summer and back again to winter. And it's not just the sunrise and sunset times that change. All the prayer times fluctuate because all of them are based on the sun's position in the sky, which obviously changes throughout the year. In some cases you would need to vary break times by as much as 2 or 3 hours over the course of 6 months, even with the 90-minute window.

The company has demonstrated a willingness to cooperate with their needs. They provide them transportation to and from work and have even provided them with a designated prayer room. It's not like management is trying to be difficult.

There are apps that show you when all the prayer times are throughout the year in any location. I think the company should sit down with the Muslims and try to map out a schedule for breaks, but I don't think they should be expected to make extreme changes to their break schedule.

I don't think your math is correct on the times. But even if so, its not clear that allowing these people to break at an adjusted time is unreasonable. Its also not clear the entire line must shut down to accommodate their breaks. There is no evidence the entire line shut down in the past when they went on break. The plant manager himself characterized this as impacting teams of 10 assemblers. Frankly we lack the specifics to argue the topic at this level, were just guessing at the facts. The most we can argue about is if religion should be accommodated. I think your proposal at the end is reasonable to me. But then I don't think religion should be respected for any reason beyond that is the law.

 

[naturalmwa]

That raises a different question. In this particular case the owner will probably say he has made reasonable adjustments to deal with this while the employees haven't made any adjustments to resolve the problem. Even if that is not true in this case, it's probably true in some cases. So the question is: does the burden ever shift to the worker to come up with a reasonable solution?

I'm generally quick to say that if an employer can't make a profit without exploiting his workers - e.g., by refusing to pay a living wage - maybe he doesn't deserve to stay in business. But is this that sort of exploitation? It doesn't taste like it to me.

Beyond that, I still wonder about a point I raised previously - namely what if you have other religious folks whose requirements conflict with the solution that would fix the first group's problems? Do you ever, for example, get to say "I can't satisfy both the Muslims and the Hindus, so I'm firing one group"?

I don't claim to be a legal scholar so I'm not going to be able to satisfy your questions. My guess is the law places the burden on the employer only to accommodate. I'm not even sure its functionally possible for an employee to accommodate an employer.Accommodation is something the powerful does for the powerless.

I don't know that your hypothetical religious impasse even exists. Do you have an example? Would not serving pork or beef at the company picnic offend some other religion? I don't think the law would side with outlawing a religion from your company, but i could be wrong.

I'm inclined to agree that denying this religious practice seems fairly minor on the exploitation scale, but then I'm hardly a very good judge on that. I think the law sets a standard that is a sincerely held religious belief. It appears to me that anyone willing to walk off the job has demonstrated they meet the standard.

 

[TJ8869]

I don't think your math is correct on the times.

At the winter solstice in Brillion, sunrise is 7:24am and sunset is 4:16pm.
At the summer solstice in Brillion, sunrise is 5:09am and sunset is 8:40pm.

Even with a 90-minute window, it's clear that the company would need to adjust break times by as much as 3 hours in the evening and an hour in the morning over a 6-month period.

 

[naturalmwa]

At the winter solstice in Brillion, sunrise is 7:24am and sunset is 4:16pm.
At the summer solstice in Brillion, sunrise is 5:09am and sunset is 8:40pm.

Even with a 90-minute window, it's clear that the company would need to adjust break times by as much as 2 hours in the evening and an hour in the morning over a 6-month period.

Maybe, thanks for the break down. Its also possible that the company simply doesn't have to deal with the prayer time for half the year. As I said, we lack the information to get in the weeds about these specifics. But we do know that the company was able to deal with the situation in the past. From that fact alone it's reasonable to conclude they likely could in the future if they wanted to.

 

[TJ8869]

But we do know that the company was able to deal with the situation in the past. From that fact alone it's reasonable to conclude they likely could in the future if they wanted to.

It kinda sounds like dealing with the situation in the past consisted of the Muslim workers stopping at fluctuating times to take unscheduled prayer breaks while the non-Muslims stood around bitching about the Muslims getting extra breaks. It probably wasn't very conducive to workplace harmony or efficient production.

 

[naturalmwa]

It kinda sounds like dealing with the situation in the past consisted of the Muslim workers stopping at fluctuating times to take unscheduled prayer breaks while the non-Muslims stood around bitching about the Muslims getting extra breaks. It probably wasn't very conducive to workplace harmony or efficient production.

It kind of sounds that way in one story. In another it sounds like the Muslims were given an extra break. That's why debating details on this case are a waste of time. We are just guessing.