Nice White Parents

[Menace Sockeyes]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/podcasts/nice-white-parents-serial.html

What, in the ever living F.....

I remember when one of the problems with schools is the lack of parent involvement. Too much “nice white parent” involvement is a bad thing according to this garbage.

Sounds really interesting. The audio bit is interesting.

What kind of racist crap is this?

Here's the non-AMP link.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/podcasts/nice-white-parents-serial.html

I agree - I liked the audio bit.

I'm afraid, though, that the actual podcast is going to just oversimplify a hugely complicated problem and boil it down to white parents being disingenuous when it comes to school.

It's not just race, there's a ton of stuff that goes into school disparities and what makes one successful and another not. It'd be good if people on ALL sides could begin by acknowledging all of these factors, and then work together on how they can fix the parts that are fixable.

- The education of kids' parents matter
- Parents' academic expectations for their kids matter
- Parents' involvement in their kids' education matters
- Family stability matters
- Access to outside resources like tutoring and prep classes matters
- Kids' peer pressure matters
- The teachers matter
- Recognition of academic achievement (as compared to athletic achievement) matters

There are a ton of factors that contribute to school/student success.

My kid's school is VERY academically competitive. It's reflected in how hard it is to climb the class rankings, the number of AP/dual enrollment classes offered, and it's reflected in the peer pressure within her group of friends. It's not about who's dating whom, going to parties, being popular, etc, it's mostly all about what classes they're taking, what grades they're getting, etc. It's not like that everywhere.

In my high school the homecoming king was the quarterback and the queen was the best looking cheerleader. In my kid's school the homecoming king was the class valedictorian, and I believe the queen was also in the top 5. When they announced each at halftime of the football game, they listed off all these academic achievements/honors. Coincidentally, the football team sucks. Probably the best cross country high school team in the country though.

A whole lot of parents show up to all the different events/school presentations - we've all known each other since elementary school and we see each other at science competitions, test days, etc. A lot of what's set the stage for the kids' academic success started in elementary school. A lot of these kids started at this old, historic school building where there is once class for each grade, the cafeteria is also the auditorium and the gym, there's not a lot of computer whiteboards, etc. But what they did have was all of us parents showing up to help with the science fair, filling in to help with classes, participating in fundraising spaghetti nights together, etc, etc.

Parents on the other side of the county never understood that and accused us of giving the kids a "private school" education on the school district's dime. They never got that why our kids were comparatively more successful wasn't about resources - their schools got a LOT more resources/technology, etc, but what our kids got was time, effort, and attention of the parents. But they didn't want to see that, so every cycle they'd try to get our kids' elementary school closed down, and every year a bunch of us would have to go to the school board meeting and take turns speaking about how we continue to receive less and less funding per student compared to these larger school, and how it was us that made the difference, not the technology. And every year they'd keep our school open another year.

A lot of white kids are starting to get lapped too though. Indian/Asian parents have got the game figured out and are willing to be tough on their kids - sometimes to a fault. There have been a few times where we show up to try out for different academic things and the white kids make up maybe 10% of the kids. The rest are Indian and Asian. Then even the white parents get mad and speak out when they get "under-represented" in something they wanted for their kids. What they never got is that these super highly-driven Indian/Asian kids are only involved in academic extra-curriculars, and they spend each summer in test prep camps, rather than recreational/sports camps. That's who the daughter's friends with, and who she's also competing against: kids whose expectations are straight A+'s, nothing less.

It's too bad that too few people actually want to do the "hard work" it would take to understand the causes of school performance differences, and just reduce it down to the reason that's simplest for them to blame on someone else.

TLDR: It's WAY more than just the race of the kids and their parents.

Just finishing this. It's an EXCELLENT podcast series. Maybe my favorite ever. It doesn't oversimplify anything. In fact, its all about all the complications. In the end, the title itself is making the point that the intentions of these affluent white parents is pure, but what they say they want, what they advocate for, and what choices they actually make to benefit their students has often harmed the black/brown students in the public school system. That this white, liberal "kumbaya" vision of diversity, particularly in northern cities that were never mandated to truly integrate, does more harm than good. But there is hope in the end. That we are finally starting to tackle the biggest problem in these schools, which is pretending that we don't all have racial blind spots. That integration is more than just throwing black and white kids together into a school, but learning about how we interact with each other and what unconscious messages we send. That the rallying cry of integration actually harmed parents of minority students, who just wanted equality.

 

[TJ8869]

Thought this said nice white pants.

What happened to her legs?

 

[Nole Lou]

I agree - I liked the audio bit.

I'm afraid, though, that the actual podcast is going to just oversimplify a hugely complicated problem and boil it down to white parents being disingenuous when it comes to school.

It's not just race, there's a ton of stuff that goes into school disparities and what makes one successful and another not. It'd be good if people on ALL sides could begin by acknowledging all of these factors, and then work together on how they can fix the parts that are fixable.

- The education of kids' parents matter
- Parents' academic expectations for their kids matter
- Parents' involvement in their kids' education matters
- Family stability matters
- Access to outside resources like tutoring and prep classes matters
- Kids' peer pressure matters
- The teachers matter
- Recognition of academic achievement (as compared to athletic achievement) matters

There are a ton of factors that contribute to school/student success.

My kid's school is VERY academically competitive. It's reflected in how hard it is to climb the class rankings, the number of AP/dual enrollment classes offered, and it's reflected in the peer pressure within her group of friends. It's not about who's dating whom, going to parties, being popular, etc, it's mostly all about what classes they're taking, what grades they're getting, etc. It's not like that everywhere.

In my high school the homecoming king was the quarterback and the queen was the best looking cheerleader. In my kid's school the homecoming king was the class valedictorian, and I believe the queen was also in the top 5. When they announced each at halftime of the football game, they listed off all these academic achievements/honors. Coincidentally, the football team sucks. Probably the best cross country high school team in the country though.

A whole lot of parents show up to all the different events/school presentations - we've all known each other since elementary school and we see each other at science competitions, test days, etc. A lot of what's set the stage for the kids' academic success started in elementary school. A lot of these kids started at this old, historic school building where there is once class for each grade, the cafeteria is also the auditorium and the gym, there's not a lot of computer whiteboards, etc. But what they did have was all of us parents showing up to help with the science fair, filling in to help with classes, participating in fundraising spaghetti nights together, etc, etc.

Parents on the other side of the county never understood that and accused us of giving the kids a "private school" education on the school district's dime. They never got that why our kids were comparatively more successful wasn't about resources - their schools got a LOT more resources/technology, etc, but what our kids got was time, effort, and attention of the parents. But they didn't want to see that, so every cycle they'd try to get our kids' elementary school closed down, and every year a bunch of us would have to go to the school board meeting and take turns speaking about how we continue to receive less and less funding per student compared to these larger school, and how it was us that made the difference, not the technology. And every year they'd keep our school open another year.

A lot of white kids are starting to get lapped too though. Indian/Asian parents have got the game figured out and are willing to be tough on their kids - sometimes to a fault. There have been a few times where we show up to try out for different academic things and the white kids make up maybe 10% of the kids. The rest are Indian and Asian. Then even the white parents get mad and speak out when they get "under-represented" in something they wanted for their kids. What they never got is that these super highly-driven Indian/Asian kids are only involved in academic extra-curriculars, and they spend each summer in test prep camps, rather than recreational/sports camps. That's who the daughter's friends with, and who she's also competing against: kids whose expectations are straight A+'s, nothing less.

It's too bad that too few people actually want to do the "hard work" it would take to understand the causes of school performance differences, and just reduce it down to the reason that's simplest for them to blame on someone else.

TLDR: It's WAY more than just the race of the kids and their parents.

We've talked about this before, but my kids have also been part of one of these highly charged academically competitive publics. If you've not been exposed to it, you just have no idea. It's an absolute meat grinder.

I have a LOT of misgivings about it. My daughters got through it and it prepared them well. I could SERIOUSLY humble brag on them (scores and scholarships) if I wanted to, and yet they never even remotely scratched the top end of their school, nor were able to participate in many of things that such gifted students would be expected to be able to be part of at a "normal" school. It's conflicting knowing that it was "good for them", and yet I kind of hate it. I was never willing to engage with the obsessive, relentless pursuit of academic eliteness on behalf of my kids.

We moved before my son started high school. It would be wrong to say we moved TO get him in a different school, but it was part of the decision. I'd say it was the thing that pushed us over to making the move. He's now in a school that's merely excellent. He went from going to attend the #8 high school in the state to the #14, but the cultural difference is extraordinary, and for the better. He went from hating school in middle school to liking school.

I don't think it's what the podcast is about specifically, but to me it's a negative when like 10% of schools are ultra-competitive and their students are performing at levels of magnitude higher than just "good" students, let alone disadvantaged students. I don't think there's anything you can do about it...you can't just make parents and communities just stop trying so much. But it shows me how virtually fruitless any government policy would be in addressing academic (and ensuing economic) inequality.

I don't think there's anything to be done about it, but I don't have to like it.

 

[z_ape]

Just finishing this. It's an EXCELLENT podcast series. Maybe my favorite ever. It doesn't oversimplify anything. In fact, its all about all the complications. In the end, the title itself is making the point that the intentions of these affluent white parents is pure, but what they say they want, what they advocate for, and what choices they actually make to benefit their students has often harmed the black/brown students in the public school system. That this white, liberal "kumbaya" vision of diversity, particularly in northern cities that were never mandated to truly integrate, does more harm than good. But there is hope in the end. That we are finally starting to tackle the biggest problem in these schools, which is pretending that we don't all have racial blind spots. That integration is more than just throwing black and white kids together into a school, but learning about how we interact with each other and what unconscious messages we send. That the rallying cry of integration actually harmed parents of minority students, who just wanted equality.

Parents of all stripes act out of self-interest for their children. You're probably doing something wrong if your problem solving is butting heads against that.

"That we are finally starting to tackle the biggest problem in these schools, which is pretending that we don't all have racial blind spots."

The biggest problem in these schools? What kind of schools are we talking about?

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

We've talked about this before, but my kids have also been part of one of these highly charged academically competitive publics. If you've not been exposed to it, you just have no idea. It's an absolute meat grinder.

I have a LOT of misgivings about it. My daughters got through it and it prepared them well. I could SERIOUSLY humble brag on them (scores and scholarships) if I wanted to, and yet they never even remotely scratched the top end of their school, nor were able to participate in many of things that such gifted students would be expected to be able to be part of at a "normal" school. It's conflicting knowing that it was "good for them", and yet I kind of hate it. I was never willing to engage with the obsessive, relentless pursuit of academic eliteness on behalf of my kids.

We moved before my son started high school. It would be wrong to say we moved TO get him in a different school, but it was part of the decision. I'd say it was the thing that pushed us over to making the move. He's now in a school that's merely excellent. He went from going to attend the #8 high school in the state to the #14, but the cultural difference is extraordinary, and for the better. He went from hating school in middle school to liking school.

I don't think it's what the podcast is about specifically, but to me it's a negative when like 10% of schools are ultra-competitive and their students are performing at levels of magnitude higher than just "good" students, let alone disadvantaged students. I don't think there's anything you can do about it...you can't just make parents and communities just stop trying so much. But it shows me how virtually fruitless any government policy would be in addressing academic (and ensuing economic) inequality.

I don't think there's anything to be done about it, but I don't have to like it.

Episode Four was a lot about the type of school you are talking about, and the one they got into looking at was a charter. And while it's tempting to look at their ultra ridged, ultra strict, ultra competitive model that delivered great test results and closed the achievement gap, as a model for other schools, the reality is that its basically designed to weed out kids that are difficult to teach while also placing lots of stress and a lack of connectedness to school, especially for minority children.

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

Parents of all stripes act out of self-interest for their children. You're probably doing something wrong if your problem solving is butting heads against that.

"That we are finally starting to tackle the biggest problem in these schools, which is pretending that we don't all have racial blind spots."

The biggest problem in these schools? What kind of schools are we talking about?

The "failing", mostly black and brown segregated public schools.

And bussing would have gone some way to help that self-interest piece, but as the series showed, the perceptions of the black and brown schools by white parents was often quite inaccurate.

You just have to take the time to listen to it. The vast majority of the time, the intentions of the parents is good, only they don't realize how their choices negatively impacted the minority communities they said they wanted to be integrated with.

 

[z_ape]

The "failing", mostly black and brown segregated public schools.

And bussing would have gone some way to help that self-interest piece, but as the series showed, the perceptions of the black and brown schools by white parents was often quite inaccurate.

You just have to take the time to listen to it. The vast majority of the time, the intentions of the parents is good, only they don't realize how their choices negatively impacted the minority communities they said they wanted to be integrated with.

Had read about bussing having its problems. (even if well intentioned) Sounded like a problematic integration strategy.

Seems a problem with integrating now would be parents at successful schools not wanting their schools to be disrupted or lowered in quality by integration of students of a (previously at least) lesser caliber.

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

Had read about bussing having its problems. (even if well intentioned) Sounded like a problematic integration strategy.

Seems a problem with integrating now would be parents at successful schools not wanting their schools to be disrupted or lowered in quality by integration of students of a (previously at least) lesser caliber.

Your second paragraph absolutely NAILS the problem, going all the way back to the 1960s. It was a Catch-22: Parents wanted to integrate to raise the quality of education for their children, yet they'd need to be integrating into schools whose test scores were significantly lower and weren't willing to make that "sacrifice". Turns out though, the few students who did integrate into the minority schools did just fine, so it was a false premise of "sacrifice".

 

[Nole Lou]

Episode Four was a lot about the type of school you are talking about, and the one they got into looking at was a charter. And while it's tempting to look at their ultra ridged, ultra strict, ultra competitive model that delivered great test results and closed the achievement gap, as a model for other schools, the reality is that its basically designed to weed out kids that are difficult to teach while also placing lots of stress and a lack of connectedness to school, especially for minority children.

Thanks. What you're describing aligns a little bit more to a private school. As well as private schools perform, a significant part of it is exactly what you said, they really just don't long term have the kids whose parents aren't supportive of education. Lopping out the 20% worst, most disruptive students from public schools would go along way toward improving public schools if you did nothing else. But public schools can. Indirectly, private and charter schools end up doing just that. The ability to do the paperwork alone has a selection bias.

I might listen to it. I've been fairly fascinated (though mostly pessimistic about the subject) ever since hearing the NPR study on the Harlem Children's Zone.

What I've experienced in the public schools where we are now (suburbs of Atlanta) is a little different. A big part of it is income...there's pretty much no apartments in these districts, nor any homes under $300k. And more importantly probably, the parents, to have that income, are almost all highly educated themselves. Where I grew up, you could have a good union job in the Ford plant, maybe a snow plow business on the side, and be in the top 15% of the wealthiest people with an 8th grad education and dirty fingernails. Here, there's pretty much no way into these school districts without educated, white collar parents.

 

[Nole Lou]

Your second paragraph absolutely NAILS the problem, going all the way back to the 1960s. It was a Catch-22: Parents wanted to integrate to raise the quality of education for their children, yet they'd need to be integrating into schools whose test scores were significantly lower and weren't willing to make that "sacrifice". Turns out though, the few students who did integrate into the minority schools did just fine, so it was a false premise of "sacrifice".

That's definitely a thing, but it's a lot bigger than that too. It was quite unpopular with black families as well. Imagine taking your kid, and shipping them an hour each way to a school where the other kids were nothing like them, and that their background and education to that point didn't remotely prepare them for. Even if you made the outward racism (which was significant) they encountered disappear with the waving of a magic wand, it was a miserable situation for most of them. Imagine taking a good student in their own school, and placing them in a school where they were almost hopelessly behind, and also cut all the social ties of proximity, class, background, etc. It was hell for most of them as well, even without blatant racist resistance.

It's a brutal situation. All I know is I wish that any student in any terrible school that had the academic ability and discipline and support of their family could sign up to go to my kids' schools.

 

[funksouljon]

Your second paragraph absolutely NAILS the problem, going all the way back to the 1960s. It was a Catch-22: Parents wanted to integrate to raise the quality of education for their children, yet they'd need to be integrating into schools whose test scores were significantly lower and weren't willing to make that "sacrifice". Turns out though, the few students who did integrate into the minority schools did just fine, so it was a false premise of "sacrifice".

My mom says that leaving me at elementary school the first day tested every liberal bone in her body on the subject when she confirmed I was the only white kid in my class (and one of the only in the school). Riley, for those that know Tally schools. Hell, I was in the minority until I matriculated to HS.

I have always read it is much more about the time parents spend with their kids and support they get outside of school than anything else.

 

[Menace Sockeyes]

My mom says that leaving me at elementary school the first day tested every liberal bone in her body on the subject when she confirmed I was the only white kid in my class (and one of the only in the school). Riley, for those that know Tally schools. Hell, I was in the minority until I matriculated to HS.

I have always read it is much more about the time parents spend with their kids and support they get outside of school than anything else.

Good for your mom. My sister was the only white girl in her Kindergarten and 1st grade class in North Carolina, while my Dad was stationed there.
Far cry from Cedar Rapids Regis, where she went to high school. She has fonder memories at the former rather than the latter (Apparently Regis had a creeper priest).