No, Bernie Sanders is not going to bankrupt America to the tune of $18 trillion

[Huey Grey]

Do you really think the cost of college tuition is the primary factor in us falling behind from an education perspective, because I surely don't.

Actually I do think that high costs is one of the primary reasons why we aren't more educated. I know a ton of people, me included, who would love to go back to school but don't want to go $50,000 in the hole. College is almost on par with buying a house. It's a huge financial burden.

 

[IMCC965]

Do you really think the cost of college tuition is the primary factor in us falling behind from an education perspective, because I surely don't.

Based on progressive rules, you're going to need a chart to prove your point.

 

[IMCC965]

They'll deny it, of course, but I think you've hit on the fundamental GOP wet dream.

No wonder the right pushes back so hard on Nazi comparisons. They hit too close. Take away the Holocaust and the whole starting WWII bit, and don't mention Hitler or Mussolini by name, and they really don't see much to dislike.

Scott Walker's attacks on unions and teachers are blatant examples out of the fascist playbook.

The Nazis were a LEFT-LEANING Socialist party. Much closer to what the left represents than the right.

 

[CeMar_Clone]

You can't place a tax only on people of certain political leanings nor can you be exempt from taxes based on political leanings.

A share of your money belongs to the community at large because the community at large provides you services which you do not pay the full price for. It is up to the community at large to determine how much this share is.

You already pay for elementary to high school for everyone as does everyone else. It's not a question of who's money it is, it's a question of supporting an expansion of educational guarantees.

So everyone that paid for their own education now gets screwed?

 

[Huey Grey]

Based on progressive rules, you're going to need a chart to prove your point.

A degree these days costs almost as much as a home. You don't think that's a disincentive based on cost?

 

[Noble Hawk]

Oh brother.

Saying the GOP is against public education is like saying water is wet.

What's the over/under on the number of GOP candidates who say they want to kill the Dept of Education, or go heavy on vouchers, or cripple teachers' unions, or other crazy things in today's debates?

Do you think ANY of them would raise their hand to oppose such things? One? Two? And if any did, they'd be attacked as RINOs.

What are you talking about? Go back and read what I responded to.

 

[CeMar_Clone]

The Nazis were a LEFT-LEANING Socialist party. Much closer to what the left represents than the right.

When people bring up facism they always relate it to conservatives. It is just a different form of liberalism. Fascism usually has a dictator, and they appoint ruling elites to run the industry, and use nationalism to control the people. Has nothing to do with conservatism.

 

[Titus Andronicus]

How do you figure?

The argument seems to be that none of Bernie's wish list items represents new spending. It is suggested that we are merely moving the burden to the federal government and away from the individuals who are currently paying for this stuff on their own.

That is the "Moving the deck chairs around" part.

The "Titanic" part is simply a reference to a common metaphor. In this case "the Titanic" is standing in for the entire U.S. economy which is sinking.

 

[SpartanHawk]

The Nazis were a LEFT-LEANING Socialist party. Much closer to what the left represents than the right.

If Hitler and the Nazis were so "left leaning" then WHY did they align themselves with Mussolini then, who actually DEFINED the term "fascism" with the FASCIST government he set up and defined as such.

And it was fortunate that we had a patriot in Smedley Butler who spilled the beans on an attempted fascist coup in this country by bankster Mussolini sympathizers from JP Morgan, etc. then who wanted to help realize that wet dream that WWJD said they were dreaming of. Of course that part of our nation's history has been covered up from being talked about in public school textbooks by the likes of the Texas school boards, etc. over the years.

And the Soviet Union and "left leaning" Germany fought each other pretty heavily in WWII. Why was that if they were so aligned politically as you claim?

 

[SpartanHawk]

Actually I do think that high costs is one of the primary reasons why we aren't more educated. I know a ton of people, me included, who would love to go back to school but don't want to go $50,000 in the hole. College is almost on par with buying a house. It's a huge financial burden.

And a big reason for that is that the feds no longer subsidize college institutions like they used to as well, and instead make more money from the banksters who profit heavily from the student loans that is used to scam more money from the masses to the bankster class. This is why national college debt now exceeds credit card debt in our country too.

Why can't we fund education for our next generation. Even a heavily populated and less affluent country like India is able to fund bachelor degrees for their young people there. And we can't? FAILURE when our bankster class that owns our government says they can't fund this education and instead funds politicians that outsource our jobs to India and other similar countries through fraudulent trade agreements or "guest worker" programs like H-1B and H-2B. Just so they can fatten their wallets more at our expense!

 

[SpartanHawk]

When people bring up facism they always relate it to conservatives. It is just a different form of liberalism. Fascism usually has a dictator, and they appoint ruling elites to run the industry, and use nationalism to control the people. Has nothing to do with conservatism.

So is that why the Koch family worked helping Hitler in WWII, and afterwards helped Communist (NOT Democratic Socialist) dictator Joseph Stalin build the Soviet Union's energy infrastructure and the Koch family's financial empire? Because they were all "liberal"?

You think us liberals loved dictators like Hitler, Mussolini, Joseph Stalin, the way that the Koch brothers, and arguably who they support now function in just supporting a ONE PERCENT ownership of society?

You are confusing "liberalism" and populism that is the heart of those supporting Bernie Sanders with those that want to support authoritarians, whether they be Hitler, Mussolini, Joseph Stalin, or others that like minded Koch family members want to support running our government (and have partially succeeded in putting in a government that serves the 1% more than the masses in this country).

Sorry, but they are NOT liberal the way we think of it. Maybe the way Limbaugh tries to define it, but that is people like him trying to alter reality the way he does on so many other things he talks about.

 

[FranklinHawk]

Actually I do think that high costs is one of the primary reasons why we aren't more educated. I know a ton of people, me included, who would love to go back to school but don't want to go $50,000 in the hole. College is almost on par with buying a house. It's a huge financial burden.

I don't disagree it's costly, but I don't think that is a primary reason we're being outpaced by other countries. Many folks maintain a job and go back to school to better themselves. Personally I think the major reason is more around culture and drive, and the "everything is owed to me and Ishouldn't have to work for it" mentality of the younger generation that seems standard today.

 

[Besthawkfan]

It doesn't say it's a right, but we'd be pretty stupid as a country to think that we could compete in the world market with high school degrees.

College degrees in certain fields are important. However, waisting billions on mostly art majors and other crap like that would be useless. Why not only allow government scholarships for nessesary degrees like engineering, and the sciences? If you qualify achedemically.

 

[SpartanHawk]

College degrees in certain fields are important. However, waisting billions on mostly art majors and other crap like that would be useless. Why not only allow government scholarships for nessesary degrees like engineering, and the sciences? If you qualify achedemically.

Why limit what we fund? For some that college educations don't make sense for, help provide them trade school training too. And for those in college, just limiting course to be in engineering and the sciences and not having it with many other topical areas that produce a well rounded and educated society that can think critically screws us in a democracy if people are just trained for jobs, and not on the issues that are important when deciding who should lead this country. That is also a big part of why our state of democracy is in a state of decline, which is why the PTB that favor the 1% have tried to set it up to keep people from getting a college education or the like like we used to have when we had a stronger democratic system.

The artists in our society shouldn't just be the wealthy. Art is the way one communicates what is going on in society just as much as writing books do. And they are both important for society to have a good understanding of what is going on now and later what happened in our history, and to affect change appropriately.

 

[Besthawkfan]

Well

Why limit what we fund? For some that college educations don't make sense for, help provide them trade school training too. And for those in college, just limiting course to be in engineering and the sciences and not having it with many other topical areas that produce a well rounded and educated society that can think critically screws us in a democracy if people are just trained for jobs, and not on the issues that are important when deciding who should lead this country. That is also a big part of why our state of democracy is in a state of decline, which is why the PTB that favor the 1% have tried to set it up to keep people from getting a college education or the like like we used to have when we had a stronger democratic system.

The artists in our society shouldn't just be the wealthy. Art is the way one communicates what is going on in society just as much as writing books do. And they are both important for society to have a good understanding of what is going on now and later what happened in our history, and to affect change appropriately.

I have a lot of friends with art degrees working in other fields.
If you can get a certain score on the SAT then the government should pay for whatever field you want, but your average C student shouldn't get a full ride art degree on my dime.

 

[SpartanHawk]

Well

I have a lot of friends with art degrees working in other fields.
If you can get a certain score on the SAT then the government should pay for whatever field you want, but your average C student shouldn't get a full ride art degree on my dime.

I say this as an engineer myself, who's been dealing heavily with the outsourcing over the last decade through H-1B visa and trade bill mechanisms. But do you really want to only train people in engineering, law, medical or other similar degrees as what one needs to be a politician these days? Politicians should be able to represent any segment of society, and not just those that are selectively rewarded when others are being selectively abandoned, just based on certain talent abilities or whether they have family wealth or not.

Artists participate a lot too in building out of things like web sites too, and it takes more than rudimentary intelligence to do work there when one has to have skills using many design oriented authoring languages and packages that one needs along with decent artist talent to be good at. Those people also deserve an education too. In addition to being one of the best math students in my high school graduating class, I was also selected top artist too. Why shouldn't I be able to pursue art training in college to go along with my tech skills training. We need training in art in college just as much as we need other skills. Using that logic of certain people being average C student or even lower not being in college, then I guess we'll have to get rid of college athletics too then the way they are run today as many of those recruited as college football or basketball players are a lot poorer students than many art students.

There should be academic and other standards not biased to those with greater access to wealth for being admitted to colleges, that we've always enforced and should continue to enforce. But if someone doesn't qualify for that, then help people with training in trade schools too, which also can help them be a productive part of society without breaking them the way our system does so much to young people today.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

The argument seems to be that none of Bernie's wish list items represents new spending. It is suggested that we are merely moving the burden to the federal government and away from the individuals who are currently paying for this stuff on their own.

That is the "Moving the deck chairs around" part.

The "Titanic" part is simply a reference to a common metaphor. In this case "the Titanic" is standing in for the entire U.S. economy.

Titanic implies that the situation is disastrous. Is it?

Rearranging the chairs implies that the action being taken is frivolous. Is improved and more egalitarian access to higher education frivolous?

 

[Huey Grey]

I don't disagree it's costly, but I don't think that is a primary reason we're being outpaced by other countries. Many folks maintain a job and go back to school to better themselves. Personally I think the major reason is more around culture and drive, and the "everything is owed to me and Ishouldn't have to work for it" mentality of the younger generation that seems standard today.

I think it is. Virtually every other developed nation has cheap college. I don't see how charging a small house worth of costs for an education won't make many think twice about getting it.

 

[Huey Grey]

And a big reason for that is that the feds no longer subsidize college institutions like they used to as well, and instead make more money from the banksters who profit heavily from the student loans that is used to scam more money from the masses to the bankster class. This is why national college debt now exceeds credit card debt in our country too.

Why can't we fund education for our next generation. Even a heavily populated and less affluent country like India is able to fund bachelor degrees for their young people there. And we can't? FAILURE when our bankster class that owns our government says they can't fund this education and instead funds politicians that outsource our jobs to India and other similar countries through fraudulent trade agreements or "guest worker" programs like H-1B and H-2B. Just so they can fatten their wallets more at our expense!

Hoping the private market will solve this certainly hasn't worked. If anything turning to the private market has just made things worse. Look at what all these for-profit online schools have done. Crap degrees at over-inflated costs. It's all part of the narrative in this country. Shift risk from the market or from the government onto the individual. If things fall through, it's the individual who is left holding the hot potato.

 

[theIowaHawk]

Where does it say "a college education is a right"? You get HS paid for on the tax payers back, if you want your college paid for get good grades and earn a scholarship or... God forbid, join the military and earn the education benefits.

How about expanding the "earning" it beyond military service?

 

[theIowaHawk]

College degrees in certain fields are important. However, waisting billions on mostly art majors and other crap like that would be useless. Why not only allow government scholarships for nessesary degrees like engineering, and the sciences? If you qualify achedemically.

Just to clarify, are you believing we spend Billions on "mostly art majors" and "other crap"? I'm trying hard to ignore that last word, but it is hard.

 

[Huey Grey]

College degrees in certain fields are important. However, waisting billions on mostly art majors and other crap like that would be useless. Why not only allow government scholarships for nessesary degrees like engineering, and the sciences? If you qualify achedemically.

I couldn't disagree more. The key to a world class economy isn't shoehorning everyone into a few fields and letting everyone else fry. The key to a world class economy is taking each individual's strengths and allowing them to maximize them.