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Oh, so NOW the pinheads at NPR decide to "be honest" about Keystone XL

The Tradition

HB King
Apr 23, 2002
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From the Marketplace Desk of We All Knew This One Was Coming, the White House said Friday it will reject the Keystone XL Pipeline, which would have brought crude from the Canadian Oil Sands down through the U.S.

The review of the project, proposed by Trans-Canada, had been going on for seven years, plenty of time for the issue to become more political then economic.

Environmentalists said the Keystone pipeline would be a climate disaster. Pipeline supporters said it would create tens of thousands of jobs. But actually? Both sides exaggerated.

Take the job argument. Tens of thousands of workers might have been needed to build the pipeline. But once it was finished, you wouldn’t need nearly that many people to run it.

“I suspect it’s less than 100,” said Michael Levi, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations.

Levi said environmentalists’ claims were also exaggerated, and that they used the pipeline as an easy-to-understand symbol.

“It was concrete, it was easy to talk about," he said. "It wasn’t something confusing like section 111-D regulations under the EPA’S authority.”

Even President Obama complained Friday in his announcement of the rejection about how political the pipeline had gotten.

“It became a symbol too often used as a campaign cudgel by both parties rather than a serious policy matter," he said.

The president’s critics shot back that he’d done much of the politicizing. But – and don’t be shocked -- the politics aren’t about to go away.

Sarah Ladislaw, the energy program director at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, wondered if this same thing will happen to other big projects.

“It’s probably going to live on as this litmus test – this political football that people like to throw back and forth,” she said.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/sustainability/politics-ran-through-keystone-pipeline


Yes, the know-it-alls at NPR used the word "than" in the second paragraph when "then" was the correct word to use.

But beyond that, I remember liberals claiming that the number of "long term jobs" would be far less than 100 during the debates. Even Politifact got in on that action:

http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...an-jones-says-keystone-pipeline-only-creates/

Now it's "less than 100" which I would assume is a concession that it would be close to 100.

And in terms of environmental impact, everyone seems to ignore that killing the pipeline does not stop the oil from being extracted and sold. It'll now be transported by truck, rail and sea, spewing CO2 that would not have been released if transported by pipeline.
 
If you're suggesting the long-term jobs are +/- 100, the original job creation angle was complete garbage - as liberals said.


Liberals like Van Jones said it was 35. If NPR is "being honest" then they would have said "less than 50" if the true number was 35.

The point is, everybody exaggerated, and this just became a political football for everyone to kick around and distract us from what's really going on.

Sad.
 
Tradition...you knew back in 2008 when Obama was elected, this thing wasn't going any where. What is your faux outrage here?
The claims by BOTH sides were over drawn. But again...it is a Canadian issue and not ours. It served as "blood in the water" for the anti-Obamas and the GOP. This pipeline would mean one ounce of energy independence for the USA. The jobs thing, perhaps.......But why is there the angst over this....yet Iowa farmers are lined up a mile long to testify against the Bakken pipeline that will cross 18 Iowa counties...and you say nothing?
Trad....you and yours are a very selective lot. Much like those whom you criticize.
 
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What do you want me to say about the Bakken? We need energy infrastructure.
I'm all for infrastructure. Companies need to pay up when they spill oil, and eminent domain should not come into play, here. It's a private venture to pull the oil out of the ground, let the free market decide how much each land owner gets for using their land. If at all.
 
I'm all for infrastructure. Companies need to pay up when they spill oil, and eminent domain should not come into play, here. It's a private venture to pull the oil out of the ground, let the free market decide how much each land owner gets for using their land. If at all.

Well, that idea is moot in the wake of Kelo v. City of New London.
 
What was the projection of how much thos would cost Buffet? I assume you know since you have posted this multiple times.


BSNF transports 700,000(expected to climb to 1.1 million) barrels of oils a day at $10-$15 a barrel. Canadian oil is around 100,000 to 150,000.(550K-600K from the Bakken fields in N. Dakota)
Keystone was estimated at $5 per barrel to transport.

It was falsely reported, that Buffett charged $30 per barrel to the Canadian oil companies to transport into the US. He actually charges half of that.
IF BNSF lost all it's oil transport...they would lost upwards to $300 - $450 million a year. BNSF is responsible for 10% of all oil transport in the lower 48 states.
 
And in terms of environmental impact, everyone seems to ignore that killing the pipeline does not stop the oil from being extracted and sold. It'll now be transported by truck, rail and sea, spewing CO2 that would not have been released if transported by pipeline.

Incorrect. Without greater pipeline capacity, projects to extract tar sands oil are already being cancelled or scaled way back. The aim of environmentalists is to keep that oil locked up long enough that it will no longer be needed. This was a win for them. Now they start to fight against Canadian pipelines.

Canada, on the other hand, is working to reduce the larger carbon footprint of extracting the oil.
 
Incorrect. Without greater pipeline capacity, projects to extract tar sands oil are already being cancelled or scaled way back. The aim of environmentalists is to keep that oil locked up long enough that it will no longer be needed. This was a win for them. Now they start to fight against Canadian pipelines.

Canada, on the other hand, is working to reduce the larger carbon footprint of extracting the oil.

BS. The only reason anything is being cancelled is because the price crashed. When the price goes back up, operations will resume.
 
BS. The only reason anything is being cancelled is because the price crashed. When the price goes back up, operations will resume.

The only reason?

Royal Dutch Shell will halt construction of its Carmon Creek thermal oil sands venture in Canada due to “uncertainties” facing the project, including a lack of infrastructure.

The decision to stop the project in the western province of Alberta comes as Shell cuts costs
and a shortage of pipeline capacity constrains growth in the Canada’s oil sands industry.

You were saying?
 
The only reason?

Royal Dutch Shell will halt construction of its Carmon Creek thermal oil sands venture in Canada due to “uncertainties” facing the project, including a lack of infrastructure.

The decision to stop the project in the western province of Alberta comes as Shell cuts costs
and a shortage of pipeline capacity constrains growth in the Canada’s oil sands industry.

You were saying?


Oh, so NOW you believe what the oil company spokespeople are saying?

Bottom line, when price makes it worth transporting, it will be extracted and transported and sold. There's no denying that.
 
Oh, so NOW you believe what the oil company spokespeople are saying?

Bottom line, when price makes it worth transporting, it will be extracted and transported and sold. There's no denying that.

The existing pipelines are running at 89% of capacity. There isn't enough pipeline capacity to expand by much. That was the whole point of fighting KXL. Bottle it up and prevent expansion. Keep claiming otherwise....you just look ignorant.
 
The existing pipelines are running at 89% of capacity. There isn't enough pipeline capacity to expand by much. That was the whole point of fighting KXL. Bottle it up and prevent expansion. Keep claiming otherwise....you just look ignorant.

Uh, if you really think that this causes oil to be "stranded" then you're a loon. I don't know what else to say. The pipeline infrastructure could be at 100 percent capacity and in that case, if the price makes the additional transportation cost feasible, then the oil will be extracted, transported by truck, train and sea, and sold.

The envirowackos are like the guys who climb up and live in a tree to save the forest, and watch all the other trees get cut down from their wonderful vantage point.
 
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Uh, if you really think that this causes oil to be "stranded" then you're a loon. I don't know what else to say. The pipeline infrastructure could be at 100 percent capacity and in that case, if the price makes the additional transportation cost feasible, then the oil will be extracted, transported by truck, train and sea, and sold.

The envirowackos are like the guys who climb up and live in a tree to save the forest, and watch all the other trees get cut down from their wonderful vantage point.

Using rail, or trucks, or sea (sea? From the tar sands? You are ignorant), or loons to transport your oil makes it far more expensive on the open market. In other words...it'll be the very last oil anyone would buy or you sell it at a loss. Can you do it? Sure. Businesses lose money on things all the time, but it's not a long-term option.
.
Please do some research before you spout off ignorantly again.
 
Using rail, or trucks, or sea (sea? From the tar sands? You are ignorant), or loons to transport your oil makes it far more expensive on the open market. In other words...it'll be the very last oil anyone would buy or you sell it at a loss. Can you do it? Sure. Businesses lose money on things all the time, but it's not a long-term option.
.
Please do some research before you spout off ignorantly again.


Here's what happens, Mr. Ignorant:

When the price is right, they frack it, truck it to a rail depot, train it to a Canadian port (thanks, Obama), and put it in a tanker (sea) and ship it to the gulf where the refineries are.

Please understand how the GLOBAL OIL INDUSTRY works before you spout off ignorantly again. Obama doesn't get to shut off the world's oil spigot. No matter how narcissistic he is.
 
Here's what happens, Mr. Ignorant:

When the price is right, they frack it, truck it to a rail depot, train it to a Canadian port (thanks, Obama), and put it in a tanker (sea) and ship it to the gulf where the refineries are.

Please understand how the GLOBAL OIL INDUSTRY works before you spout off ignorantly again. Obama doesn't get to shut off the world's oil spigot. No matter how narcissistic he is.

LOL...can't manage the research, eh? Gosh...they put it on a truck, then on a RR, then on a ship? Really?

When "the price is right" everyone else will STILL be pumping their oil through pipelines at lower cost. Now try to pay attention here...that makes the tar sands oil significantly more expensive to bring to market. See? So they have to sell at a loss in order to move their oil. Understand? It's more expensive. Get it?

Probably not. Ignorance, thy name is Trad.
 
LOL...can't manage the research, eh? Gosh...they put it on a truck, then on a RR, then on a ship? Really?

When "the price is right" everyone else will STILL be pumping their oil through pipelines at lower cost. Now try to pay attention here...that makes the tar sands oil significantly more expensive to bring to market. See? So they have to sell at a loss in order to move their oil. Understand? It's more expensive. Get it?

Probably not. Ignorance, thy name is Trad.

You like spouting obvious crap and claiming I don't "understand" don't you.

If the pipelines are basically full and the price is high enough, they can still move more oil and make a profit. Maybe not as much as if it went through the pipeline, but depending on the price, it could still be worth it as a less-lucrative source of revenues.

If the pipelines are at capacity and the price remains attractive, do you really think the oil companies are going to say, "Well, that's it. Nothing more we can do."

Oh, and since you're so sure that the oil companies don't do this, why do trains full of oil keep derailing all over the place?
 
You like spouting obvious crap and claiming I don't "understand" don't you.

If the pipelines are basically full and the price is high enough, they can still move more oil and make a profit. Maybe not as much as if it went through the pipeline, but depending on the price, it could still be worth it as a less-lucrative source of revenues.

If the pipelines are at capacity and the price remains attractive, do you really think the oil companies are going to say, "Well, that's it. Nothing more we can do."

Oh, and since you're so sure that the oil companies don't do this, why do trains full of oil keep derailing all over the place?

Jeebus...are you serious? The price of transporting is FIGURED INTO THE MARKET PRICE. It's a fixed cost. And if MY fixed cost for transport is LOWER than yours, my oil will be CHEAPER than yours. You have to sell at a lower margin than I do or maybe even take a loss.

Now...let's talk logistics. KXL was designed to carry 590,000 barrels of oil a day. A large tanker truck carries about 230. Do the math. You would need to service over 2500 trucks A DAY to match KXL's carrying capacity. Good luck with that.

You can keep arguing that's it's possible. You just look dumber every time.
 
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Jeebus...are you serious? The price of transporting is FIGURED INTO THE MARKET PRICE. It's a fixed cost. And if MY fixed cost for transport is LOWER than yours, my oil will be CHEAPER than yours. You have to sell at a lower margin than I do or maybe even take a loss.

Now...let's talk logistics. KXL was designed to carry 590,000 barrels of oil a day. A large tanker truck carries about 230. Do the math. You would need to service over 2500 trucks A DAY to match KXL's carrying capacity. Good luck with that.

You can keep arguing that's it's possible. You just look dumber every time.

I never made the argument you're making but thanks for putting words in my mouth.

If you have a bunch of widgets that your customer wants to buy, and you can deliver half with your own truck, and rent another truck to deliver the other half, why wouldn't you do that even though the second half will reap less profit per widget than if you used your own truck? As long as you're still making a profit, what's the problem?
 
I never made the argument you're making but thanks for putting words in my mouth.

If you have a bunch of widgets that your customer wants to buy, and you can deliver half with your own truck, and rent another truck to deliver the other half, why wouldn't you do that even though the second half will reap less profit per widget than if you used your own truck? As long as you're still making a profit, what's the problem?

*sigh* 2,500 trucks a day? 1,000 trucks a day? The fewer trucks you run the higher your transport margin runs. Even you have to understand that there comes a point where it makes no sense to even try. The oil companies get that...why can't you?
 
*sigh* 2,500 trucks a day? 1,000 trucks a day? The fewer trucks you run the higher your transport margin runs. Even you have to understand that there comes a point where it makes no sense to even try. The oil companies get that...why can't you?

It depends on the price! Why can't YOU get that?
 
It depends on the price! Why can't YOU get that?

If. You. Can't. MOVE. It...the price is immaterial. No price will allow you to service 1,000 trucks a day...much less the >2,500 to match KXL. You can produce as much as you want at any price you care to name. It'll just pile up in whatever holding facility you want to build.

YOU. CAN'T. MOVE. IT!
 
If. You. Can't. MOVE. It...the price is immaterial. No price will allow you to service 1,000 trucks a day...much less the >2,500 to match KXL. You can produce as much as you want at any price you care to name. It'll just pile up in whatever holding facility you want to build.

YOU. CAN'T. MOVE. IT!

So you don't move it as fast as you could with the XL. It'll still get moved.
 
11_9-handelsman-tribune.jpg
 
So you don't move it as fast as you could with the XL. It'll still get moved.

LOL...you haven't a clue. So...what? You gonna cut back production until you match the number of trucks you can fill in a day? You do understand that just increases your costs even more, right? Maybe this will help you understand:

CALGARY, Alberta, Jan 13, 2013 - Canada's independent oil producers may face months of depressed earnings and weak shareprices as they jockey for space on the country's over-full oil pipelines.

The independents, companies that focus on producing oil and gas and have no refining or marketing operations, are being squeezed by a shortage of export capacity as rising heavy oil production from the Alberta oil sands strains pipeline capacity, trapping oil in Canada and pushing down prices.

While North American benchmark oil prices remain relatively robust near $95 per barrel, Canadian prices have tanked, with the Western Canada Select heavy crude trading at more than $41 per barrel below the West Texas Intermediate (WTI) standard on Friday.

That cuts into producers' cash flow and profits, with a likely knock-on impact on shares that have already fallen sharply over the past three months.

"The shortfall in take-away capacity is absolutely going to weigh on realized prices for the Canadian producers over the near term on both heavy and light oil," said Chris Feltin, an analyst at Macquarie Research. "But especially heavy oil, which is at a pretty substantial discount to WTI right now ... It's a challenging market for Canadian upstream crude producers."

Oil at $95/barrel. Tar sands oil discounted more than 40% to compete and barely making money. So even at YOUR price point, they can't turn a decent profit due to a LACK OF CAPACITY.

And YOU think they will expand production in that kind of environment. You ready to stop now?
 
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So, the oil companies are busting at the seams because pipelines are at capacity, and that's a good thing how?
 
What the hell are you talking about? Have you started drinking already?

You stated pipelines are at 89 percent capacity. That seems pretty close to full capacity. Why would we want to not have enough infrastructure to increase capacity if necessary?

These are not illegitimate questions nor do they indicate that I've had any alcoholic beverages (but if I have to suffer many more of your idiotic and insulting replies, I might start).
 
You stated pipelines are at 89 percent capacity. That seems pretty close to full capacity. Why would we want to not have enough infrastructure to increase capacity if necessary?

*sigh* I think you have completely lost track of the discussion. The point of fighting KXL was to prevent expansion of capacity because that will prevent expansion of production. You claimed that wasn't true...that production would go up as soon as prices rebounded.

I have now demonstrated that even when prices were high, oil companies were fighting to make a profit on tar sands SOLELY due to capacity issues and certainly weren't looking to grow production. That indicates that pipeline capacity limits WILL limit exploitation of tar sands resources even at higher price points. Which - full circle now - is why environmental groups were fighting KXL in the first place.

Understand now?
 
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