Okie State v Central Michigan What would Solomon do?

[ukrainehawk]

I'm just listening to an impassioned discussion on ESPNU about whether the game victory should be reversed, with all the requisite historical and moral references included in our other thread, plus arguments about the potential impact on the playoff hopes of both teams and the implications on the Big Twelve playoff picture. And almost every point on each side of the issue makes sense. What to do? So, even aside from religion, I ask myself, 'What would Solomon do'?

The answer seems very non-traditional, and may infuriate traditionalists and purists everywhere; but also humane and in its own way, eminently fair: Award, and let the record show, a victory for BOTH teams.

.

 

[HawkeyeFever62]

I'm just listening to an impassioned discussion on ESPNU about whether the game victory should be reversed, with all the requisite historical and moral references included in our other thread, plus arguments about the potential impact on the playoff hopes of both teams and the implications on the Big Twelve playoff picture. And almost every point on each side of the issue makes sense. What to do? So, even aside from religion, I ask myself, 'What would Solomon do'?

The answer seems very non-traditional, and may infuriate traditionalists and purists everywhere; but also humane and in its own way, eminently fair: Award, and let the record show, a victory for BOTH teams.

.

Who is Solomon?

 

[DavenportHawk8]

They didn't reverse the HORRIBLE officiating errors in the Outback bowl a few years ago, so why would they do this. It was a Misapplication of the rules (happens more than you think) and unfortunately a team lost. I can tell you no one feels worse than those 8 guys on the field. I am sure they feel sick to their stomach about making that call. It sucks, but if your the coach, why not punt it on 4th down? Have your punter just boot out of bounds and the clock stops. I mean you can place all the blame you want on the officials, but seriously that was just as poor coaching as was the officiating.

I found it funny that Gundy said, "I will never play another non-conf game w/out Big 12 officials." He does know that his OWN REPLAY official could of stopped it. Also the mighty Big 12 officials missed an obvious targeting call in the ND/Texas game. The big 12 does not have the best officials, but he seems set on not allowing anyone else to officiate their game. Wonder what he will do for the bowl game?

 

[Dauminator]

I dunno, ask Solomon.

I would reverse it. Since it's at the end of the game, you can actually say, "If we change this call here, x is the certain outcome of the game." If you can vacate a win, you can vacate a play.

Although I don't have much sympathy for OkSU. No reason to throw.

 

[ANYCHawk]

Who is Solomon?

long time king, built a temple and I think split a baby in two.

 

[bagdropper]

The only thing I think as far as an honorable thing to do would be after both teams' regular seasons are over is the next weekend, CSU fly back down there and play the OT. On OkSU's dime of course.

But the MAC will never, ever agree to that. And quite frankly, if I were the conference, I wouldn't do it either.

But that's how wise ol' Solomon would carve this baby in half...

 

[NorthernHawkeye]

They didn't reverse the HORRIBLE officiating errors in the Outback bowl a few years ago, so why would they do this. It was a Misapplication of the rules (happens more than you think) and unfortunately a team lost. I can tell you no one feels worse than those 8 guys on the field. I am sure they feel sick to their stomach about making that call. It sucks, but if your the coach, why not punt it on 4th down? Have your punter just boot out of bounds and the clock stops. I mean you can place all the blame you want on the officials, but seriously that was just as poor coaching as was the officiating.

I found it funny that Gundy said, "I will never play another non-conf game w/out Big 12 officials." He does know that his OWN REPLAY official could of stopped it. Also the mighty Big 12 officials missed an obvious targeting call in the ND/Texas game. The big 12 does not have the best officials, but he seems set on not allowing anyone else to officiate their game. Wonder what he will do for the bowl game?

Comparing this to the Outback is like apples and oranges.

This was an extra play when the game was over according to the rules.

Central should forfeit the win. It's the only honorable thing to do.

 

[ANYCHawk]

The only thing I think as far as an honorable thing to do would be after both teams' regular seasons are over is the next weekend, CSU fly back down there and play the OT. On OkSU's dime of course.

But the MAC will never, ever agree to that. And quite frankly, if I were the conference, I wouldn't do it either.

But that's how wise ol' Solomon would carve this baby in half...

1. Its CMU.

2. It wasn't a tie game. So why would they play an OT?

 

[bagdropper]

I realize that. What I'm saying is that OT needs (needed) to be played for this to "come out right". It truly is the only honorable thing to do imho if you're CMU.

Again, their conference would never go for it...and I can't blame them for that.

But if I had the power...I'd figure out a way to get that OT played yet this year.

 

[NorthernHawkeye]

I realize that. What I'm saying is that OT needs (needed) to be played for this to "come out right". It truly is the only honorable thing to do imho if you're CMU.

Again, their conference would never go for it...and I can't blame them for that.

But if I had the power...I'd figure out a way to get that OT played yet this year.

You make no sense. Playing OT would not make it right. The only honorable thing to do would be for central to forfeit. According to the rules as written, the last play was not allowable. The game was over based upon the rules.

 

[DutchyFunStar]

Has a game result ever been reversed after the fact, other than vacated wins because of NCAA sanctions?

You have to live with the result as determined on the field no matter what.

 

[SDHawkDoc]

On the field officials misapplied the rules.
But, what really gets me, is that the review officials didn't get it right. How does that happen? They aren't in the middle of the action on the field with screaming coaches while running around trying to call the game. They are sitting somewhere with computer resources at their fingertips. All they had to do was review the rules in the reference, which they could have opened on their laptop screen right in front of them, and tell the on field guys what should have been done.
Unless I'm missing something, I just don't get how the review crew could have fouled this up.

 

[soybean]

On the field officials misapplied the rules.
But, what really gets me, is that the review officials didn't get it right. How does that happen? They aren't in the middle of the action on the field with screaming coaches while running around trying to call the game. They are sitting somewhere with computer resources at their fingertips. All they had to do was review the rules in the reference, which they could have opened on their laptop screen right in front of them, and tell the on field guys what should have been done.
Unless I'm missing something, I just don't get how the review crew could have fouled this up.

Me either. The review crew is supposed to be the fail safe.

 

[NorthernHawkeye]

Has a game result ever been reversed after the fact, other than vacated wins because of NCAA sanctions?

You have to live with the result as determined on the field no matter what.

There could be a retroactive remedy if the NCAA cared enough.

NCAA aside, the polls could have been a little better about it instead of dropping them from the rankings. That was crap.

If I'm OSU, every publication, every announcement and every word uttered on the matter from this point forward would be that "our record is 2-0."

 

[myteamcanbeatupyourteam]

I realize that. What I'm saying is that OT needs (needed) to be played for this to "come out right". It truly is the only honorable thing to do imho if you're CMU.

Again, their conference would never go for it...and I can't blame them for that.

But if I had the power...I'd figure out a way to get that OT played yet this year.

Why would they need overtime to decide a game that was won on a play that never should have been played? Truth be told, OSU should never have put themselves in that position in the first place.

 

[tomhawk80907]

I'm just listening to an impassioned discussion on ESPNU about whether the game victory should be reversed, with all the requisite historical and moral references included in our other thread, plus arguments about the potential impact on the playoff hopes of both teams and the implications on the Big Twelve playoff picture. And almost every point on each side of the issue makes sense. What to do? So, even aside from religion, I ask myself, 'What would Solomon do'?

The answer seems very non-traditional, and may infuriate traditionalists and purists everywhere; but also humane and in its own way, eminently fair: Award, and let the record show, a victory for BOTH teams.

.

Big 12 refs are rather famous for this very thing. How many years ago was it they gave nebby 5 downs to beat mizzo at the end of the game. They didn't overturn that "mistake" iirc.

 

[NorthernHawkeye]

Why would they need overtime to decide a game that was won on a play that never should have been played? Truth be told, OSU should never have put themselves in that position in the first place.

I keep hearing people say that OSU did this to themselves but according to the rules, the call to heave the ball was perfectly fine and in spite of the ensuing penalty, the game should have ended.

 

[5Fan5]

Big 12 refs are rather famous for this very thing. How many years ago was it they gave nebby 5 downs to beat mizzo at the end of the game. They didn't overturn that "mistake" iirc.

I believe it might be Colorado you are thinking about.

 

[laidbackdude2011]

The reality is that the NCAA will always admit that it made a mistake but will not do anything about it. Once you start reversing wins etc that opens a Pandora's box. The officiating crews are ALWAYS screwing up calls. This one was egregious because it was very clear. There was no gray area. But this happens all the time and the NCAA knows it.

 

[markfromj]

There are hundreds of officiating events in a game. This last one is no more important than the others.

 

[NorthernHawkeye]

There are hundreds of officiating events in a game. This last one is no more important than the others.

Except that according to the rules, the game was over, thus making this officiating event much more important.

If this was Iowa, people would be losing their minds. It's so much easier to dismiss it when it's not Iowa.

 

[hawkcub]

Except that according to the rules, the game was over, thus making this officiating event much more important.

If this was Iowa, people would be losing their minds. It's so much easier to dismiss it when it's not Iowa.

If this was Iowa I'd be mad as hell. That doesn't take away from the fact you are opening a gigantic Pandora's box if it is reversed after the fact.

 

[catahawk]

The reality is that the NCAA will always admit that it made a mistake but will not do anything about it. Once you start reversing wins etc that opens a Pandora's box. The officiating crews are ALWAYS screwing up calls. This one was egregious because it was very clear. There was no gray area. But this happens all the time and the NCAA knows it.

______________________________________________________

This.^^^^^.... It would set a bad precedent going forward. Just because it's the last play of the game only makes it a little more convenient. The ONLY possibility that would be fair would be for CMU to give up the win and I hope they don't do it as putting the officials on leave was a horrible answer and I enjoy seeing the Cowboys implode because of their inept review crew.

 

[CFNiteHawk85]

Threaten to split the win in half and offer the full win to the team that tells him to award the win to the other team.

 

[mthawkeyes]

I believe it might be Colorado you are thinking about.

Nebraska was allowed to beat Missouri on a pass that was intentionally kicked. (Matt Davison?)

 

[NorthernHawkeye]

If this was Iowa I'd be mad as hell. That doesn't take away from the fact you are opening a gigantic Pandora's box if it is reversed after the fact.

By the rules, the game was over, but the refs allowed one additional play outside of the rules?

You are simply not opening a "gigantic Pandora's box" by fixing this.

 

[ukrainehawk]

Threaten to split the win in half and offer the full win to the team that tells him to award the win to the other team.

I see what you did there. As the OP, I must admit that your solution is more perfectly reflective of the stories of Solomon than mine. But I still think the other idea of awarding a win to both teams would be pretty wonderful...

 

[DavenportHawk8]

Me either. The review crew is supposed to be the fail safe.

Big 12 replay crew. 2 guys sitting in a booth with numerous resources. All they would of had to do is buzz down and inform the crew. Its my guess that they thought the game was over and cracked a beer.

Case in point, sorry but Okie State is part of the Big 12 and their replay officials allowed for this to happen. Sucks, but its life. The game should not be changed and I guess you can cite human error. God knows officials are not allowed to make mistakes, but the damn weather man can be wrong 6 out of 7 days and still keep his job. I am assuming these guys will serve a suspension but they will be back officiating again.

I guess my only question is, what was gundy thinking? Why not just punt it or have your QB run around and fall down? I mean anything but throwing it away, that's not smart coaching. But hey he's a man and he's 40 so.....

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Who is Solomon?

Clinton Solomon. He was a wide receiver for the Hawkeyes who now serves as an arbitrator of football rules disputes. He's now widely recognized as the wisest of all the rules arbitrators in the sport and, as such, would be a prime candidate to decide the best way to resolve this situation.

/sarcasm

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

The reality is that the NCAA will always admit that it made a mistake but will not do anything about it. Once you start reversing wins etc that opens a Pandora's box. The officiating crews are ALWAYS screwing up calls. This one was egregious because it was very clear. There was no gray area. But this happens all the time and the NCAA knows it.

I think in this case, reversing is easily supported without opening pandora's box. Why? Because the blown call came with the clock at zero. You can unequivocally say that in the absences of the blown call, the result of the game would have been the other way. There's zero room for subjective interpretation as there are no other possible outcomes.

 

[hawkssox1]

Comparing this to the Outback is like apples and oranges.

This was an extra play when the game was over according to the rules.

Central should forfeit the win. It's the only honorable thing to do.

Horsecrap you start a precedent like that and it will truly fk things up.

 

[Jim Grizzly]

I haven't put much thought into it. The game was over by rule so Okie St. Won. That last play didn't count, it wasn't part of regulation, regardless of the officials allowing it to happen.

 

[hawkssox1]

I haven't put much thought into it. The game was over by rule so Okie St. Won. That last play didn't count, it wasn't part of regulation, regardless of the officials allowing it to happen.

Check the records of both and see who has the L and who has the W.

 

[wedomn8]

In my opinion, what is missed in all of this is that the rule, as it is written, is crap. If you end the game, you are rewarding a team (OSU) for committing a penalty. I think the officials did what should have truly been done, but the rule doesn't say that. Also, the other thing lost is that CMU still had to make the play on that 1 untimed down. Avoid the controversy OSU and stop them from scoring on the Hail Mary play. That's a play that succeeds only 15% of the time. That is just my opinion on it.

 

[Dauminator]

Check the records of both and see who has the L and who has the W.

I suppose you're one of those who celebrates our NCAA appearance in that year we played Tennessee as a "First Round" game. Get real. Or that the Fab Five didn't exist because those wins are gone from the record book.

There's no precedent for reversing decisions left and right. Normally, there is game to be played after the incident that could go a hundred different ways by changing one data point. But here, the game is completely over and done with. It's perfectly straightforward.

 

[hawkssox1]

I suppose you're one of those who celebrates our NCAA appearance in that year we played Tennessee as a "First Round" game. Get real. Or that the Fab Five didn't exist because those wins are gone from the record book.

There's no precedent for reversing decisions left and right. Normally, there is game to be played after the incident that could go a hundred different ways by changing one data point. But here, the game is completely over and done with. It's perfectly straightforward.

You always argue with yourself?

 

[icantfindausernamethatisntused]

Relying on a slippery slope argument is rarely persuasive, especially when there is a bright-line rule to be made in a situation such as this. By rule the game should have been over. There is no question who should have won, and there is no hypothetical scenario possible in which case CMU would have won had the rules been applied properly.

 

[fifteenandoh]

you cannot change the outcome of the game...
but you can change the rule..... its a bad rule... Central Michigan should have gotten an extra play.... the reason why nobody knew the rule... is because its an illogical rule.

 

[DavenportHawk8]

you cannot change the outcome of the game...
but you can change the rule..... its a bad rule... Central Michigan should have gotten an extra play.... the reason why nobody knew the rule... is because its an illogical rule.

At every level you are told to extend the game on an "accepted penalty" is what I was told by an official. Said that every rule written states that if a penalty is accepted the quarter is extended for an untimed down. If penalty is declined then the quarter is over and you move on.

But apparently in the rule book for college football it states differently and these 8 guys didn't know that. Sucks for them, but again what was Gundy thinking. Also what was OSU thinking, how could you let C-Michigan hang with you? I realize they are a MAC school, but your better than that and shouldn't of even been that close. ( I said the same thing after Iowa lost to them a few years back on the onside kick issue). If your truly that good, you don't allow a team like that to hang around.

I gotta go with the decision is final and move on. Sucks, but its life.

 

[fifteenandoh]

At every level you are told to extend the game on an "accepted penalty" is what I was told by an official. Said that every rule written states that if a penalty is accepted the quarter is extended for an untimed down. If penalty is declined then the quarter is over and you move on.

But apparently in the rule book for college football it states differently and these 8 guys didn't know that. Sucks for them, but again what was Gundy thinking. Also what was OSU thinking, how could you let C-Michigan hang with you? I realize they are a MAC school, but your better than that and shouldn't of even been that close. ( I said the same thing after Iowa lost to them a few years back on the onside kick issue). If your truly that good, you don't allow a team like that to hang around.

I gotta go with the decision is final and move on. Sucks, but its life.

I can't help but wonder if the roles were reversed... if Ok St had been the one to score on the last play of the game... I can't help but wonder if any of us would even know about that obscure rule.