Okie State

[woodsiding]

The question is why is Okie State (and most of the other blue blood programs) falling further behind psu while Iowa is holding relatively steady. I'd say the answer is Tom Brands has evolved with the sport better than any of the other coaches besides Cael.

We're winning in the portal. We're winning in the NIL work.

And alot of the truths that we used to say about the program, just isn't true anymore. Our wrestling looked better on top than it has in years. We were scoring more first period points than we had in years. Our guys look strong and in shape. We peaked at nationals. We looked healthier at nationals than we have in a decade. And our guys look loose and relaxed and dare I say... having fun.

 

[hawkeyealumni]

It is obvious reading these reply's that I don't want most of you in charge of decision making for our wrestling program. Observations and evaluations of people and positions are painfully way off base.

 

[Fan In Black]

recruiting would suffer big time without M*

 

[HawkFan1986]

recruiting would suffer big time without M*

I think that would say more about our current coaches than M*.

I don’t buy the narrative that Iowa can’t recruit without Morningstar.

 

[herkcy]

I do think Iowa's staff needs some adapting. Now if that's the current staff, great. I see a recruiting coordinator as the first move. Listen to Austin O'Connor's interview on the podcast On The Mat with Andy Hamilton & Kyle Klingman if you disagree. The problem I see with the staff is adaptability. How many titles did PSU win before we were in contention? You have to realize that what you are doing isn't cutting the mustard. Iowa adapted with Spencer Lee's class. They need to again. Iowa needs to quit blowing it's load each 4 to 5 years on recruiting classes. They need to start getting more consistent, so they can pull the studs at the needed weights every year. A recruiting weekend like last year's absolutely won't cut it regardless of scholarship dollars. They've done really well with the portal, but the problem is that is reactive and you never know what your available pool will be. Maybe there is a plan to get to what I mention above. We'll see what the recruiting weekend looks like in the fall. Problem is I think the staff's stubbornness is it's greatest asset in it's success as well as it's biggest deterrent.

 

[T8KUDWN]

I think that would say more about our current coaches than M*.

I don’t buy the narrative that Iowa can’t recruit without Morningstar.

Obviously, Iowa would be able to recruit without Morningstar, but I do believe Morningstar is a pretty damn good recruiter. He would be missed.

 

[bluroptimo]

M* is great at what he does and needs to stay put. HWC needs to provide the high caliber on the mat coaches and IMO that’s the payoff when you recruit top 3 p4p talent to your college program.

Looking at PSU’s staff Carl’s credentials overshadow the rest…his brother a two time finalist; Kennedy a 3 time AA, and a guy who had a 500 record.

 

[Redm18]

So many on this board are like

The question is why is Okie State (and most of the other blue blood programs) falling further behind psu while Iowa is holding relatively steady. I'd say the answer is Tom Brands has evolved with the sport better than any of the other coaches besides Cael.

We're winning in the portal. We're winning in the NIL work.

And alot of the truths that we used to say about the program, just isn't true anymore. Our wrestling looked better on top than it has in years. We were scoring more first period points than we had in years. Our guys look strong and in shape. We peaked at nationals. We looked healthier at nationals than we have in a decade. And our guys look loose and relaxed and dare I say... having fun.

So many of the people on this board I think lived through the Gables years ( I guess I did to but not really he retired about the time I put on my first pair of wrestling shoes and cared even a little about the sport) and just are pissed that it's not like that anymore. I don't think it will be at Iowa like that ever again. Iowa still has a top 5 program in the country and likely a top 2 program. Nebraska football had a pretty solid program under Osborne (though not nearly as great as the Iowa wrestling program) with a lot of similarities. Osborn retired around the same time Gable did. The Huskers are on there 8th head coach since Osborn and the Hawks have had two. I would argue its worked better for Iowa wrestling then Nebraska football. TnT are not perfect but I guarantee every athletic director in the country would like to fill every head coaching position in the country in every sport with the equivalent of Tom Brands so fast it would make your head spin.

 

[HawkFan1986]

Obviously, Iowa would be able to recruit without Morningstar, but I do believe Morningstar is a pretty damn good recruiter. He would be missed.

I’d like to add that I’m not advocating that M* should go. Maybe they could alter his role slightly. Why not use his strengths, in a more permanent manner.

I like the guy. He’s extremely easy to talk to, and very down to earth. The very definition of approachable. Let’s make him the director of recruiting. That opens up a coaching spot for a younger, more offensively minded guy that can roll with our middle weights. This could potentially boost recruiting and help our 149-174 guys improve.

I’m just spit balling here. Ideally we would just start recruiting better more athletic wrestlers. It does seem as though we have a high number of physical wrestlers and a limited number of guys that can score from space.

 

[MitchLL]

Cue Mitch to chime in with the ‘why look at Dresser, not even in the top ten’

I'm not sure anyone needs my POV regarding ISU.

They had 2 AAs, one being Carr, who I could coach to AA. Anyone thinking Metcalf and DSJ would be an upgrade should be a comedian, because it is laughable.
Pollard with quite the ROI on that staff.

 

[ChiPackHawk]

I'm not sure anyone needs my POV regarding ISU.

They had 2 AAs, one being Carr, who I could coach to AA. Anyone thinking Metcalf and DSJ would be an upgrade should be a comedian, because it is laughable.
Pollard with quite the ROI on that staff.

I just don't understand why so many correlate wrestling accomplishments such as being a National Champion or AA as a prerequisite to being a top coach. Just because the coach was not an offensive machine does not mean he can't teach it. Like some who call for Desanto to be the strength and conditioning coach because he has an endless gas tank. Being able to get into condition is simply not the same thing as knowing how to get someone else into condition. It's far more complicated than that. Now having the trophies on the shelf for being a recruiter, totally different thing.

 

[HawkFan1986]

I just don't understand why so many correlate wrestling accomplishments such as being a National Champion or AA as a prerequisite to being a top coach. Just because the coach was not an offensive machine does not mean he can't teach it. Like some who call for Desanto to be the strength and conditioning coach because he has an endless gas tank. Being able to get into condition is simply not the same thing as knowing how to get someone else into condition. It's far more complicated than that. Now having the trophies on the shelf for being a recruiter, totally different thing.

Dan Gable, Tom Brands, John Smith, and Cael Sanderson. The four best coaches over the past 40+ years. That may be the reason people jump to great wrestler= great coach. It’s not always a predictor of success but there’s a pretty good track record so far.

 

[ChiPackHawk]

Dan Gable, Tom Brands, John Smith, and Cael Sanderson. The four best coaches over the past 40+ years. That may be the reason people jump to great wrestler= great coach. It’s not always a predictor of success but there’s a pretty good track record so far.

Those are all head coaches - the discussion was about assistant coaches.

 

[HawkFan1986]

Those are all head coaches - the discussion was about assistant coaches.

You used the words “top coach” I responded. The four guys I listed are the top coaches for the past four decades. You asked why do people correlate wrestling accolades with successful coaching. I gave you examples.

Edit to add. All of those guys were assistants at one point.

 

[ChiPackHawk]

You used the words “top coach” I responded. The four guys I listed are the top coaches for the past four decades. You asked why do people correlate wrestling accolades with successful coaching. I gave you examples.

Top coach means good coach, regardless of position. If I wanted to bring up head coach, I would have said head coach. I would never refer to the head coach as "top".

 

[MSU158]

Dan Gable, Tom Brands, John Smith, and Cael Sanderson. The four best coaches over the past 40+ years. That may be the reason people jump to great wrestler= great coach. It’s not always a predictor of success but there’s a pretty good track record so far.

The problem with that is, it is also ridiculously hard to get a head coaching job at a premiere program without having those type of successes as an athlete. In a fringe sport like college wrestling, very few guys that were 1x AA's or just NQ's or even room guys stick around and do any coaching at this level long enough to try to eventually get a DI Head Coaching job, let alone one where you are at a fully funded program and have the resources to compete at the top.

With that said, there ARE plenty of guys without nearly any accolades that could coach just as well. The problem would be recruiting. Without the name recognition how are you even going to get a blue chips attention to even begin to sell him on why he would do his best with you?

 

[ChiPackHawk]

You used the words “top coach” I responded. The four guys I listed are the top coaches for the past four decades. You asked why do people correlate wrestling accolades with successful coaching. I gave you examples.

Edit to add. All of those guys were assistants at one point.

And I'm sure they were excellent on mat coaches, but the primary job of a head coach is to manage the entire program, not to be the primary instructor.

 

[bluroptimo]

So many on this board are like

So many of the people on this board I think lived through the Gables years ( I guess I did to but not really he retired about the time I put on my first pair of wrestling shoes and cared even a little about the sport) and just are pissed that it's not like that anymore. I don't think it will be at Iowa like that ever again. Iowa still has a top 5 program in the country and likely a top 2 program. Nebraska football had a pretty solid program under Osborne (though not nearly as great as the Iowa wrestling program) with a lot of similarities. Osborn retired around the same time Gable did. The Huskers are on their 8th head coach since Osborn and the Hawks have had two. I would argue it’s worked better for Iowa wrestling than Nebraska football. TnT are not perfect but I guarantee every athletic director in the country would like to fill every head coaching position in the country in every sport with the equivalent of Tom Brands so fast it would make your head spin.

I thought the PSU staff was looking pretty grey at NCAA’s and one thought I had was, “enjoy the ride PSU fans, it won’t last forever.”

 

[cidhawkeye]

I'm not sure anyone needs my POV regarding ISU.

They had 2 AAs, one being Carr, who I could coach to AA. Anyone thinking Metcalf and DSJ would be an upgrade should be a comedian, because it is laughable.
Pollard with quite the ROI on that staff.

I just enjoy reading your pov.

 

[MitchLL]

I just enjoy reading your pov.

Yeah, I've got a reputation for being really objective.

 

[Fan In Black]

Mitch is too optimistic for my taste but I enjoy his feed back.

 

[WEH8ST8HAWK]

M* is great at what he does and needs to stay put. HWC needs to provide the high caliber on the mat coaches and IMO that’s the payoff when you recruit top 3 p4p talent to your college program.

Looking at PSU’s staff Carl’s credentials overshadow the rest…his brother a two time finalist; Kennedy a 3 time AA, and a guy who had a 500 record.

Take a look at who they have to roll with their guys in the NLWC. A couple Olympic Gold medalists in Snyder and Varner, throw in Nolf, Taylor, Gilman, the older Dean, Retherford. The list goes on.

 

[ff141]

Take a look at who they have to roll with their guys in the NLWC. A couple Olympic Gold medalists in Snyder and Varner, throw in Nolf, Taylor, Gilman, the older Dean, Retherford. The list goes on.

And a guy named Dake I think plus 10x the funding of any other RTC.
Not to say anyone shouldn’t have high expectations or not want to improve as a team and look at other coaching options but sometimes your doing the best that can be expected.

 

[grapplefann]

Yeah, I've got a reputation for being really objective.

And then there's your reputation of not being critical enough.

 

[Tcalumet]

Obviously, Iowa would be able to recruit without Morningstar, but I do believe Morningstar is a pretty damn good recruiter. He would be missed.

Maybe a title change is in order than. Team recruiter.

Now to find an upper weight coach.

 

[fourbyfour69]

Brands need to quit trying to change what these guys come in with and just add our toughness and aggressiveness. Not all guys can do what they did. Actually very few. They are big for their weights and weight cutting was different. There is more finesse in the high caliber athletes. They need to adapt. I thin Kem, young and Marinelli regressed trying to fit the Iowa style vs adding it to how the had been trained. I say this having been on the team under Gable who was a master at knowing what guys needed. Example Lou Banach needing a day off maybe only 3-4 days of practice. Rico needing to add the Iowa intensity to HIS style.

 

[LIV4GOD]

Brands need to quit trying to change what these guys come in with and just add our toughness and aggressiveness. Not all guys can do what they did. Actually very few. They are big for their weights and weight cutting was different. There is more finesse in the high caliber athletes. They need to adapt. I thin Kem, young and Marinelli regressed trying to fit the Iowa style vs adding it to how the had been trained. I say this having been on the team under Gable who was a master at knowing what guys needed. Example Lou Banach needing a day off maybe only 3-4 days of practice. Rico needing to add the Iowa intensity to HIS style.

You're operating under the unproven premise that the Brands are changing the style of those who come in. Spencer wrestled completely different than Metcalf, who wrestled completely different than Mark Perry, who wrestled nothing like Dough Schwab, who wrestled vastly different than Eric Juergens. You think Max Murin wrestled the same as Cody Sebriecht? That's laughable.

 

[drunkengoat]

Honestly it would be nice to see Morningstar and Telford leave, and get hired elsewhere. I’d imagine Morningstar has gotten offered a head coaching job somewhere. He’s earned it at this point IMO.

Regardless, I think Iowa needs a fresh set of eyes in the program.

The AD can help take advantage of our relative wealth over other programs by hiring a few stud wrestlers to non coaching positions, even if its not in the area of wrestling. They can still coach as part of the HWC. So we don't even have to get rid of our current coaches. Also, need to hire a great recruiting coordinator (doesn't need to be a wrestler) who can basically do everything in recruiting that Tom doesn't. They can set him up for success and really help him out in that area. This would take a big commitment from the University AD., but would pay dividends.

 

[bluroptimo]

Take a look at who they have to roll with….

Why I mentioned what I did about recruiting and HWC.

 

[tiltman]

recruiting would suffer big time without M*

Where does this narrative that he’s such a great recruiter come from? I’m not picking on you I hear it all the time. He doesn’t land any of our best wrestlers. Lee came bc of the Brands, the brands have told the story over and over about how they drove out to Pennsylvania to talk Kemerer into coming, Lugo, desanto, woods, eirman all transfers, marinelli, chittum, cass all were originally committed somewhere else, PK would’ve came here no matter who we sent to recruit him; so I’m just not seeing how M* is some great recruiter.

 

[acuhawk]

PK would’ve came here no matter who we sent to recruit him; so I’m just not seeing how M* is some great recruiter.

PK grew up a Minnesota fan and his dad kind of expected him to go there. He ended up falling in love with the Iowa coaches and room.

 

[IAChief32]

PK grew up a Minnesota fan and his dad kind of expected him to go there. He ended up falling in love with the Iowa coaches and room.

Yup...M* was like a member of the family. Same with Marinelli as well.

 

[MitchLL]

And then there's your reputation of not being critical enough.

You might have a difficult time believing this, but this is one of the few forums that I haven't been banned from.
The banhammer was usually for using profanity.

 

[fourbyfour69]

You're operating under the unproven premise that the Brands are changing the style of those who come in. Spencer wrestled completely different than Metcalf, who wrestled completely different than Mark Perry, who wrestled nothing like Dough Schwab, who wrestled vastly different than Eric Juergens. You think Max Murin wrestled the same as Cody Sebriecht? That's laughable.

Well Brands was not head coach of Schwab or Juergen. Metcalf was one that could wrestle like Brands. Perry, was know that there were some disagreements between he and Brands on training and style. Brands knew better than to change Spencer. And to the smallest of extent Cobe and Max were alike in the fact they both just RODE without really looking for a fall. Come out to the side and try to put the arm on the back. Was about the only way both Brands knew how to turn anyone if they didn’t catch them. Saw it and felt it in practice every day. Have had this same discussion with Alger, Lewis and others.

 

[Fan In Black]

Where does this narrative that he’s such a great recruiter come from? I’m not picking on you I hear it all the time. He doesn’t land any of our best wrestlers. Lee came bc of the Brands, the brands have told the story over and over about how they drove out to Pennsylvania to talk Kemerer into coming, Lugo, desanto, woods, eirman all transfers, marinelli, chittum, cass all were originally committed somewhere else, PK would’ve came here no matter who we sent to recruit him; so I’m just not seeing how M* is some great recruiter.

I trust what I've been told.

 

[gymdad]

I thought the PSU staff was looking pretty grey at NCAA’s and one thought I had was, “enjoy the ride PSU fans, it won’t last forever.”

Interesting observation and comment considering the coaches age:

Penn State:
Cale Sanderson 43
Casey Cunningham 46
Cody Sanderson 47
Jimmy Kennedy 35

Iowa:
Tom Brands 55
Terry Brands 55
Ryan Morningstar 47
Bobby Telford 32

I thought the PSU staff was looking pretty grey at NCAA’s and one thought I had was, “enjoy the ride PSU fans, it won’t last forever.”

 

[gymdad]

I thought the PSU staff was looking pretty grey at NCAA’s and one thought I had was, “enjoy the ride PSU fans, it won’t last forever.”

Interesting observation and comment considering the coaches age:

Penn State:
Cale Sanderson 43
Casey Cunningham 46
Cody Sanderson 47
Jimmy Kennedy 35

Iowa:
Tom Brands 55
Terry Brands 55
Ryan Morningstar 47
Bobby Telford 32

 

[GlenHawk]

Interesting observation and comment considering the coaches age:

Penn State:
Cale Sanderson 43
Casey Cunningham 46
Cody Sanderson 47
Jimmy Kennedy 35

Iowa:
Tom Brands 55
Terry Brands 55
Ryan Morningstar 47
Bobby Telford 32

Morningstar is 36.

 

[gymdad]

Morningstar is 36.

Thank you for the correction

 

[Twoooooooo]

Thank you for the correction

For a minute I was questioning my own age🤣