OT: LOL at people thinking LeBron is GOAT over Jordan

[slipHawk]

Hardly tailored... but if you want to add rebounds / steals be my guest. I included the reg season stats where James shines. It's still not close.

 

[unoHawkeye]

If you want a complete breakdown, here is a link:
https://howtheyplay.com/team-sports/Michael-Jordan-Versus-LeBron-James

I was surprised to see that James is statistically more “clutch” than Jordan

 

[Bulldogs1974]

*posts accolades tailored to Jordan*
*posts stats tailored to Jordan*

“Which would you pick?”

Jordan does have the advantage in career accolades (though LeBron has more All Star and All NBA selections, which were conveniently left off the list).

But posting free throw percentage over assists? Rebounds? Steals and blocks? Advanced metrics?

again, what would jordans have looked like if he had not retired 5 seasons or played at unc for 3. Lebron has the benefit of coming straight out of hs and being able to play 85% of his games during the season.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

not sure you can quantify clutch. in a few stats.
What's funny is that lebron people argue how much better of a shooter he was from 2 and 3 than jordan... Those stats are pretty equal, with much of lebron's being attributed to shot location and the fact he's not abused as much as players were in jordans era.
The other lebron argument is that jordan played with better players, that website shows that wasn't the case.

 

[DodgerHawki]

Did anyone notice in The Last Dance that most games were in the 80s as far as points scored? And that was the winning team. Those games were brutal. If LeBron has better percentages than Michael in shooting that's not exactly a bragging point. He should.

Game has changed. Less grabbing away from the ball. Teams don't plant big guys in the post and clog things up. Teams can't get away with knocking guys down like the Pistons did. Not allowed today. I would argue back then the games were not brutal. But I'm old school.

Jordan would have excelled in any era, the current one included. I probably lean toward he over Lebron, but I could be convinced otherwise. Both great players.

 

[unoHawkeye]

again, what would jordans have looked like if he had not retired 5 seasons or played at unc for 3. Lebron has the benefit of coming straight out of hs and being able to play 85% of his games during the season.

... and at the end of “The Last Dance,” Jordan was absolutely (physically and mentally) exhausted, despite having already retired once in his career. He went into retirement again for a reason. If he would have played five more years, there’s no guarantee that his body would have held up or that he would have maintained the pace he was on. And there’s nobody to be held accountable for MJ’s first retirement but MJ. I respect and think it’s cool that he chased his baseball dream, but it was at the expense of his GOAT argument (and I realize that his father’s death was an extenuating circumstance of his initial retirement)

MJ GOATers tout how few games he missed over his six year stretch with the Bulls (six), while also saying “what if he played as long as LeBron?” One of the reasons LeBron’s had the longevity he’s had is because of load management. Not sure why that’s held against him while a credit to Jordan

 

[unoHawkeye]

not sure you can quantify clutch. in a few stats.
What's funny is that lebron people argue how much better of a shooter he was from 2 and 3 than jordan... Those stats are pretty equal, with much of lebron's being attributed to shot location and the fact he's not abused as much as players were in jordans era.
The other lebron argument is that jordan played with better players, that website shows that wasn't the case.

How can you not quantify clutch? The article uses stats from games eliminating opponents, to games facing elimination, to shots with five seconds or less in the game, to buzzer beaters. That is literally “clutch” quantified, and LeBron wins in every category... or are you also a “tickles your gut” guy?

Also, my only post in this thread related to FG% and 3pt% was a correction of somebody who said that MJ was a “better shooter.” Again, you are holding it against LeBron that he takes higher percentage shots, while Jordan shot a ton of midrange jumpers. I never said anything about James being so much better a shooter than Jordan

Finally, LeBron played with better players (except for the beginning of his career in Cleveland). He also faced Hall of Famers 3 times as many times in the playoffs as Jordan did. The article also makes a good point about the awful expansion teams watering down the league

 

[Kinnick.At.Night]

I think athletically, LeBron is the greatest player the game has ever seen. He doesn’t have Jordan’s mean streak though. He’s not obsessed with dominating everything around him like Jordan either. Those attributes made MJ the GOAT.

 

[CleteyColgate]

Game has changed. Less grabbing away from the ball. Teams don't plant big guys in the post and clog things up. Teams can't get away with knocking guys down like the Pistons did. Not allowed today. I would argue back then the games were not brutal. But I'm old school.

Jordan would have excelled in any era, the current one included. I probably lean toward he over Lebron, but I could be convinced otherwise. Both great players.

LeBron has the perception by many of having quit in some of the NBA Finals in which he played. No one ever said that about MJ.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

... and at the end of “The Last Dance,” Jordan was absolutely (physically and mentally) exhausted, despite having already retired once in his career. He went into retirement again for a reason. If he would have played five more years, there’s no guarantee that his body would have held up or that he would have maintained the pace he was on. And there’s nobody to be held accountable for MJ’s first retirement but MJ. I respect and think it’s cool that he chased his baseball dream, but it was at the expense of his GOAT argument (and I realize that his father’s death was an extenuating circumstance of his initial retirement)

MJ GOATers tout how few games he missed over his six year stretch with the Bulls (six), while also saying “what if he played as long as LeBron?” One of the reasons LeBron’s had the longevity he’s had is because of load management. Not sure why that’s held against him while a credit to Jordan

He still played at a high level after retiring for 3 years. Yes he would have been fine and one of the seasons was shortened by a strike.
Yeah the most mentally tough player to ever play the game and potentially any sport ever would have been just fine.
The bigger question would be how Lebron a body would have held up to getting hit all the time vs the hands off approach given to players today. His body has not had near the punishment that it would have in the 80’-90’s.

 

[eyesofhawk]

13 posts by you in this thread so far Uno. You picked a side yet? Hmmm?

 

[unoHawkeye]

13 posts by you in this thread so far Uno. You picked a side yet? Hmmm?

True... I guess at this point you could say I’m team LeBron. Have you been able to find anybody willing to post their phone number publicly on an anonymous forum so you can play cards with them yet? I know that would tickle your gut

 

[eyesofhawk]

Lol it certainly would. Care to volunteer?

 

[unoHawkeye]

 

[mro78]

if you watched "the last dance" you'll see that the NBA today is beyond soft

 

[mro78]

lol, poor guy. He's just a toy for mike. Jordan could have lit him up for 200 if he felt like it

 

[fivecardstud14]

if you watched "the last dance" you'll see that the NBA today is beyond soft

Yes this is the type of comment I've come to expect from a college bball fan regarding the Association.

 

[blhawk]

Jordan was great and can't argue he wasn't the greatest but when Jordan played baseball the rest of his team made the conference finals. What LeBron team would be able to do that?

They won first round but lost second round. Pacers/Knicks final. Mostly because of good team D if I recall. But further than about anyone thought, to your point. I thought it was finals too before watching LD

 

[blhawk]

Pippen and Grant weren't even drafted until Jordan's 4th year, and Pippen wasn't even a starter until the 88 playoffs. Jordan lost to Bird and Isaiah teams in those first years, then had to beat those Isaiah led teams and Magic to win titles. Meanwhile Lebron, even after moving to Miami , was losing to Dirk's Mavericks with Wade and Bosh. He beat Okie City with Durant and S.A. the year after, while also getting Fricking Ray Allen to join the team. His Cleveland team that won the NBA championship, had Kyrie, Love, and J.R.Smith as well. Lebron's win there was amazing, but do they win it if Draymond doesn't get suspended a game?

Good post. Yeah that Draymond suspension was BS but knowing the NBA I wasn't surprised one bit. They needed a game 6. Stephs sprained mcl was a huge factor too.

No denying LeBron is great but he has also greatly benefitted from playing in a vastly inferior conference almost his entire career. He's had some cakewalks to the finals.

 

[Hans81]

I mean the documentary was reviewed by Jordan and tailored to paint a picture of him as the GOAT. I think both sides of the aisle can make valid points. I think one argument in Jordan’s favor was the extent to which he had a global and cultural impact, and what he did for the NBA and its popularity. And, as pointed out in the documentary, this was before everybody knew everything about superstars via social media. The only player who I think comes close to doing what Jordan did on a cultural level is Kobe.

As far as on the court goes, it’s a lot closer than some here would like to believe. “No contest” and “no debate” are both laughable. What LeBron did in 2015-2016 for Cleveland against the best regular season team of all time is arguably as great or better than “The Last Dance.” Statistically, the two are very comparable

So LeBron has come close to winning 6 rings?

 

[unoHawkeye]

So LeBron has come close to winning 6 rings?

There are a lot of greats across sports who never won championships, and there are a lot of players worse than Jordan who won more. Individuals don’t win championships in team sports... even basketball. And if championships defined the success of individual careers, then Bill Russell would be the GOAT by far - 11 rings in two less years than MJ

 

[Hans81]

Uno's contribution to this thread says it all. Quick to back LeBron or call out Jordan three times in the thread. It's clear who he chooses. But hasn't come out and said that he thinks LeBron is the GOAT because then... well...you know...lol

Exactly...MJ must have stole his girlfriend.

 

[Hans81]

In 25 years nobody will consider either to be the GOAT.

the reason is simple, people gravitate towards players they actually saw play. Nobody even talks about Magic or Wilt as the greatest anymore.

I find these arguments pointless. They were both the best of their era.

Well, people don't because even Magic said MJ was/is the best basketball player...ever.

 

[Hans81]

I grew up with MJ and was lucky enough that my family had season tickets so saw MJ play live too many times to count. So I am biased. I will say this, look at what peers say. I can’t remember the year but players were polled with 2 questions. Who do u want to take the last shot if the game depended on it? 96 percent said MJ. And, Who would you want guarding the other team’s player who was taking the last shot if you needed a stop? 94 percent said MJ. That is pretty telling IMO.

And the Mike (no pun intended) drops

 

[Hans81]

There are a lot of greats across sports who never won championships, and there are a lot of players worse than Jordan who won more. Individuals don’t win championships in team sports... even basketball. And if championships defined the success of individual careers, then Bill Russell would be the GOAT by far - 11 rings in two less years than MJ

Granted there is no "i" in team, but there is one in "win", which is what teams that Jordan was on did in college (NCAA title), the Olympics (gold metal), and titles in Chicago for a Bulls team that sucked before Jordan got there. Simply put...it's Jordan and everybody else...even legends like Magic and Bird agree.

 

[Hans81]

that's what she said... and she said... and she said... and...

LOL

 

[Hans81]

At this point, this argument really has become useless. A) because anyone with a working pair of eyes knows the answer and is probably offended to have to waste the energy explaining it to someone. And B) as Uno has partially pointed out, no one is going to be convinced to change their mind. The people in Jordan's camp aren't going to change their mind because well, they have a working pair of eyes. And people who are still in LeBron's camp at this point aren't going to change their mind because well, some people just can't be helped. But because I enjoy being right, and have nothing else to do, I will waste some energy explaining the answer.

LeBron is undeniably great. LeBron haters are utterly ridiculous. I remember the first time I saw him play on TV in high school vs Oak Hill. I immediately knew that he would be great in the NBA and that he would have the best court vision since Magic/Bird. Then I remember watching his first pro game vs the Kings and immediately knew that he would be an all-time great. I remember commenting to my mother, who was watching the game with me, that the sign of LeBron's greatness was the fact that his teammates were making the shots taken off his passes. Not only was he seeing the passes a step ahead of the game, but it was like he was passing his confidence, charisma, and will- power to his teammates through the ball. The recent poll saying that Jordan is a better passer than LeBron is ridiculous.

But even more ridiculous is the thought that anyone other than Jordan is the GOAT. And I was never even a Jordan fan growing up. But it's not even close to being close. Jordan is not only #1, he is #2 as well. I don't think there is a clear cut #3. There are a handful of people you could argue for that spot. But it's hard for any of them to put forth a stronger argument than LeBron. And for the sake of this thread I'll talk about Jordan vs LeBron.

This is where the answer is so simple that it gets hard to explain. It's like really? If you don't see it, I guess you don't see it. Forget the stats and all that. I've seen over a decades worth of both of their play and none of that matters. Get out of your heads people and keep it simple. Watch them both play and see who tickles your gut. It's Jordan. Really, just look at them as men. Look into their eyes. Who tickles your gut? It's Jordan.

Let's pretend nobody knew who either of these guys were. And let's pretend there was a known killer on the streets in your neighborhood that was striking again and again. You need to walk to the store and on one side of the street you see Jordan. On the other side of the street you see LeBron. Which side of the street would you walk on? Anyone who would walk on Jordan's side of the street not only is severely lacking in survival instinct, but knows nothing about competition.

And that's what this really comes down to. The intangibles. If Jordan and LeBron's stats and tangible skills were exactly the same, it would still be no contest. And that's because the heart, will, and killer instinct of Jordan. Some people say that in a game of one-on-one LeBron would win. And that's probably the most laughable argument of them all. How is LeBron supposed to win after his heart gets ripped out of his chest? Humans require a heart to pump blood through it's body.

Really, when it comes to the "fox hole" argument, LeBron's not even in it. When choosing a player to join you in a fox hole, or for a game 7, or for one game on the playground, there are at least a handful of guys I'm taking before LeBron. In those situations you want someone who shows no fear, never doubts himself, never gets into his own head. Just watch LeBron shoot a free throw. Often it is painful to watch him get through the process. It is a visual definition of what it means for someone to be in his own head. LeBron has air-balled a free throw in an NBA finals game. Jordan has made a free throw in an NBA game with his eyes closed.

But this isn't the "fox hole" argument. It's the GOAT argument. It takes into account success over time, all-around skill, and many other factors that go beyond choosing for a one game scenario. But again, there is no argument. Jordan is #1 and #2. As for number #3, LeBron will give you the strongest argument

WOW...excellent post.

 

[unoHawkeye]

Exactly...MJ must have stole his girlfriend.

Is that what you’ve gotten from this thread? That I hate MJ? Shocking

 

[Hans81]

MJ had nothing on Dr. J. All this GOAT talk is just relevant to those that perceive only what they know...and things get hyped out of proportion the last couple of decades
if you never saw players like Bob Cousy, Wilt, Kareem, Dr. J, Russell, Rick Barry, Pistol Pete, Jerry West, Baylor, Oscar, Bird...and many more...your perception is incomplete.
The comment about stats regarding some of these guys is a bit outlandish....yea they were not only huge in individual stats...but they also were part of Championship teams. Kareem transformed the Milwaukee Bucks into a an instant champion team before going to Lakers. Wilt, West were part of the maybe the greatest team ever (33 straight wins). Russell was the ultimate team player and greatest defender/rebounder ever.....he understood exactly what positioning meant to rebounding....also the art of shot blocking...used to drive him crazy to see a guy swat a ball out of bounds when as he noted does nothing for the team...block the ball so that you get it (i.e, a turnover). That's why he was the cornerstone of the greatest basketball NBA dynasty. Plus, he has a wit and intellect (something MJ is missing). Russell deserves the GOAT label as much as anyone.

One other note on MJ....he played in an era when defenses treated driving down the lane differently then in prior eras...when big nasty guys would not let you come into the lane without some hard contact...and refs didn't call every little bump as fouls either. Plus he carried the ball like no one else...something that once upon a time got called by refs.

Except for Bob Cousy...I remember watching all the players mentioned in your post and Jordan is still the "best of the best".

 

[Hans81]

Is that what you’ve gotten from this thread? That I hate MJ? Shocking

Yep, that's the tone I get from your posts in this thread.