Play both Murrays together.

DodgerHawki

HR Heisman
Nov 19, 2002
9,229
10,626
113
Analytics do not take into account when the scoring or rebounding occurs. PMac's stats occur in crunch time.
Come on BB Hawk. That isn't an argument. There is absolutely nothing that says his stats occur in crunch time. I don't think anyone is saying he shouldn't play. He should. He is among Iowa's best players. What many of us are saying is that by all the readily-available metrics out there, he's not Iowa's best 2-3 players. Way too many missed shots taken (long 2's and 3's).
 

DodgerHawki

HR Heisman
Nov 19, 2002
9,229
10,626
113
Last game it seriously just felt like either Kris was sick/injured, cuz he played so little and when he did he wasn’t great. He’s my favorite player on the team because I think his ceiling is as high as Keegan’s, I don’t get why Fran literally yanked him after like 3 minutes in the first half. Then he benched him in the second after 2-3 mins, and put him back in for a little bit with less than 7 minutes left then when hw got a foul, took him out with like 4 mins left. I’m maybe a little biased but when you know you have a guy that can get you double digits easily and is our best rebounder per/40 probably our best or second best defender, why would you never let him get in rhythm? Only thing I can think of is that he was banged up a bit and we were easily winning so he didn’t want to risk anything especially on an off night against a lesser opponent. Idk
Yeah he must have been under the weather or something. No other real explanation.
 

KcTo

HR MVP
Feb 6, 2020
1,639
1,335
113
Last game it seriously just felt like either Kris was sick/injured, cuz he played so little and when he did he wasn’t great. He’s my favorite player on the team because I think his ceiling is as high as Keegan’s, I don’t get why Fran literally yanked him after like 3 minutes in the first half. Then he benched him in the second after 2-3 mins, and put him back in for a little bit with less than 7 minutes left then when hw got a foul, took him out with like 4 mins left. I’m maybe a little biased but when you know you have a guy that can get you double digits easily and is our best rebounder per/40 probably our best or second best defender, why would you never let him get in rhythm? Only thing I can think of is that he was banged up a bit and we were easily winning so he didn’t want to risk anything especially on an off night against a lesser opponent. Idk
A. Coaching Blunder?
B. Poor game coach?
C. Both?
 
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jonesy5960

HR All-American
Sep 6, 2012
3,943
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Last game was an anomaly so I wouldn't read too much into it yet. I think the correct answer is that he won't play Keegan, Patrick and Kris at the same time for any meaningful minutes. Keegan needs to be out there 30+ and Patrick is penciled in for 23-26. As long as Fran is of that mindset Kris's minutes will be capped at around 17 per game.
 

iowa surfer

HR MVP
Gold Member
Aug 22, 2005
1,831
513
113
More Kris minutes, followed by more Perkins minutes. Maybe a few more Ulis minutes; I could go either way on that one.
Fewer Bohannon minutes. A lot less Connor minutes. Take some from Rebraca depending on the lineup.
Agree. Kris vital. Need scoring and rebounding from him. Same for Pmac. But Kris 1st. Jbo hot he plays and in crunch time he has green light.
 

topherchris20

HR All-State
Silver Member
Jun 14, 2021
525
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I have no ties to them personally, but Ithink Iam a pretty good judge of talent. I am an Iowa fan, been posting on here for several years (a little longer than you or your buddy) and I was a season ticket holder for about 50 years until the pandemic knocked me out of going. I am a loyal fan, too, so I don't turn on players depending on how they did in the last game. I know that both Kris and PMac deserve minutes but I think PMac is just a little more comfortable on both ends than Kris is currently. Will that always be the case? I don't know, but I trust the staff on that one. I guess you two don't.
Yeah more comfortable throwing up wild off balance layups to the tune of 25% or less.
 

jonesy5960

HR All-American
Sep 6, 2012
3,943
6,768
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As he gets hammered, yes. He actually drives to the bucket and gets fouled. And he makes free throws at a high rate.

Someone has to be the slasher/driver besides Keegan.
He really has been an excellent free thrower this year. That's been one of his biggest strengths this year without question. 7 of the top 10 minute getters are shooting over 80% and 3 of them are 90+. That's remarkable. Number one in P5 and 15th overall.
 
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HFFL64

HR All-State
Apr 19, 2007
665
68
28
Yeah, you just have to accept that Fran is setting a lower ceiling for this team than it would otherwise have and its not going to change.

Same formula he used to underachieve last year.
Weren't injuries a huge part of the formula, perhaps biggest?
 
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hoythawk

HR All-State
Nov 4, 2015
787
1,279
93
If you watch the games and still feel Kris Murray shouldn't be getting the 2nd most minutes on the team then you are exposed as knowing nothing about the game. It still angers me knowing that Kris would be Keegan 2.0 right now if he wasn't stuck behind Connor 2 seasons in a row. How Connor still gets so many minutes is criminal. Our ceiling has been set by Fran just like how last year got screwed by Frans insistence on playing 1 bad player alongside 2 injured players.

Ask yourself this. IF we were forced to shut our program down this year, and the rest of the conference got a school yard pick of our team, what order would they go in? Connor would be a toss up with Ash for the about the 11th pick depending on if they wanted a guy who may make a 3 at the end, or wanted a guy to give 5 fouls at the end in desperation time.
My guess on draft order for our team
1. Keegan
2. Kris
3. Perkins
4. JT
5. Bohannon Could go 3rd depending on team needs
6. Uhlis Could drop to 8th depending on team needs
7. Pmac Could see him go 5th or 6th.
8.. Rebraka Could be as high as 5 depending on team needs.
9. JO
10. Mulvey
11. Ash/Connor mop up minutes. Not a chance either would be picked in the top 8. Yet Connor gets played huge stretches.
Just last game we were dominating the first half. Connor comes in and the game immediately turns sloppy and we look like garbage. Last year Luka had his worst stats with Connor since teams don't guard him, they doubled Garza. 2 years in a row we can give Fran credit for a good roster but blame for his inability to get the best players on the court. IT's time to move on from this staff.
 

IllQChawk

HR All-American
May 29, 2001
3,960
2,473
113
I'll guarantee Mulvey would go ahead of Ogundele. He's much more athletic and has more upside then Josh. You can't teach height and therefore both of those two would go sooner then you have them and ahead of Rebraca.
I like Rebraca but he's not a center in the Big Ten and he's much more tentative and less skilled then I had imagined he would be.
 

RocknRollface

HR Legend
Dec 21, 2011
10,811
10,406
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Weren't injuries a huge part of the formula, perhaps biggest?
The formula was playing more experienced better offensive players instead of less experienced defensive players.

Its more egregious this year because the more experienced players aren't better on either end.
 
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blhawk

HR All-American
Oct 30, 2001
4,815
5,899
113
I'm not going to insert myself into the McCaffery family and friends vs the only reason Pat and Cmac aren't playing at Toledo is because of their dad crowd but these kinds of comments are what drives the debate around minutes into the ditch. Kris played a total of 10 minutes. He barely saw the floor enough to get into a rhythm.

Kris is already the second best player on the team and will only get better with minutes. Use whatever you want to judge that statement. Virtually every empirical metric backs it up. Full stop. It has nothing to do with Connor or Patrick or anyone else for that matter. He should be starting or at a minimum getting 25 minutes per game. The fact that he is averaging 15 minutes per game over the last 4 games makes zero sense. The fact that he played 10 minutes last night when Keegan was out for much of the first half makes even less sense. On Kris' worst day he likely brings more than Connor today and that's not CMac bashing. That's just a fact and Kris, assuming he's healthy, should be getting the minutes. If he's not healthy, then Fran should say something.
So true. 10 mins for Kris is a complete joke, I doubt he will with the family ties but I wouldn't blame him if he transfers... It's already his 3rd year out of HS. Fran's blind favoritism or whatever you want to call it is making me lose interest and is hurting the future
 
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iahawks10

HR Legend
Nov 3, 2001
11,793
14,505
113
For those that disagree about Connor please list your draft order.

Do they have to include Uhlis and Rebraka?

Unfortunately, a team isn’t built around a draft order, so it’s pretty much pointless to even do one.
 

hoythawk

HR All-State
Nov 4, 2015
787
1,279
93
Do they have to include Uhlis and Rebraka?

Unfortunately, a team isn’t built around a draft order, so it’s pretty much pointless to even do one.
Yes in this day and age everyone gets participation ribbons so everyone also gets drafted. Even for mop up duties. The main point is Connor would only get mop up minutes on any other team.
 

hoythawk

HR All-State
Nov 4, 2015
787
1,279
93
So true. 10 mins for Kris is a complete joke, I doubt he will with the family ties but I wouldn't blame him if he transfers... It's already his 3rd year out of HS. Fran's blind favoritism or whatever you want to call it is making me lose interest and is hurting the future
It's hard to watch the games knowing the ceiling is capped low due to the best players not getting the most minutes.
 

unoHawkeye

HR Heisman
Gold Member
Jul 30, 2015
9,640
14,249
113
Hey guys, it’s Christmas Eve. Maybe try to enjoy it instead of getting mad online about minute distribution against God-awful teams that we beat by over 30

“If Kris played 15 more minutes we would’ve beat them by 40!!!! 😢😡”
 

topherchris20

HR All-State
Silver Member
Jun 14, 2021
525
800
93
As he gets hammered, yes. He actually drives to the bucket and gets fouled. And he makes free throws at a high rate.

Someone has to be the slasher/driver besides Keegan.
Maybe one out of ten he gets fouled on. He is shooting 22% from the floor. He's not shooting 16+ free throws, but he is shooting 10+ shots and missing almost 8+ of them. Kris should have his minutes.
 

twindman

HR MVP
Sep 1, 2010
1,744
964
113
So true. 10 mins for Kris is a complete joke, I doubt he will with the family ties but I wouldn't blame him if he transfers... It's already his 3rd year out of HS. Fran's blind favoritism or whatever you want to call it is making me lose interest and is hurting the future
Well in the last 6 games, Conner got 16 mpg and Kris got 17. However, Conner probably would have had a couple more if he wasn't hurt against Iowa State - he only got 8 minutes. for the season it is Connor at 16 and Kris 17 so nothing has change over the course of this year.
 

BBHawk

HR Legend
Oct 31, 2001
26,984
19,550
113
Iowa City
Maybe one out of ten he gets fouled on. He is shooting 22% from the floor. He's not shooting 16+ free throws, but he is shooting 10+ shots and missing almost 8+ of them. Kris should have his minutes.
What? LOL? Where the heck are you getting your stats?

Here is a link to ESPN stats for Iowa. PMac is shooting 42+% from the floor (including the shots he missed when getting hammered) and 82+% from the line. He's only shooting 30% from the 3 so that has lowered his overall shooting percentage but he's been shooting that better as of late. He's not perfect by any means but at least quote the truth if you are going to slam him.
 

The Deplorable Sleeping Dog

HR Heisman
Gold Member
May 9, 2018
5,397
7,199
113
A. Coaching Blunder?
B. Poor game coach?
C. Both?
That was probably Kris' worst game as a Hawk and certainly his worst this year. He looked atypically slow and just off. I'd say the flu, a nasty cold or migraine headache, etc... might be the more likely explanation for Kris' lack of minutes rather than bad coaching.

We don't know and should not know anything about the players' private lives. I am sure the last game was an anamoly and Kris' minutes increase in the next game and even more in conference play.​
 
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jonesy5960

HR All-American
Sep 6, 2012
3,943
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What? LOL? Where the heck are you getting your stats?

Here is a link to ESPN stats for Iowa. PMac is shooting 42+% from the floor (including the shots he missed when getting hammered) and 82+% from the line. He's only shooting 30% from the 3 so that has lowered his overall shooting percentage but he's been shooting that better as of late. He's not perfect by any means but at least quote the truth if you are going to slam him.
I have no idea where that dude got his stats from but he's way off. You are incorrect also however in regards to shooting 42% including shots he missed while getting hammered. Shots taken while getting fouled only count as an attempt if they go in. Shots missed while being fouled (assuming the foul is called) are not counted as attempts. This actually tends to raise the shooting percentages of slashers that drive to the hole vs jump shooters who are fouled with much less frequency.
 

BBHawk

HR Legend
Oct 31, 2001
26,984
19,550
113
Iowa City
I have no idea where that dude got his stats from but he's way off. You are incorrect also however in regards to shooting 42% including shots he missed while getting hammered. Shots taken while getting fouled only count as an attempt if they go in. Shots missed while being fouled (assuming the foul is called) are not counted as attempts. This actually tends to raise the shooting percentages of slashers that drive to the hole vs jump shooters who are fouled with much less frequency.
That makes sense. So his 2 pt percentage would be almost 50% (overall shooting percentage does include 3 pt shots). Not too shabby, especially with 80%+ ft shooting.
 

jonesy5960

HR All-American
Sep 6, 2012
3,943
6,768
113
That makes sense. So his 2 pt percentage would be almost 50% (overall shooting percentage does include 3 pt shots). Not too shabby, especially with 80%+ ft shooting.
I think you might have missed the point of my statement. His 2 point shooting percentage would actually be much lower if they included fouled misses in the number of attempts which they don't. If you're looking for normalized shooting percentages that takes into account the 3 point shooting point differential, you would use Effective Field Goal percentage. Patrick's percentages and where he ranks in the 10 man rotation are:

2 point 50% Tied for fifth with Cmac and Sandfort
3 point 29% 9th
Effective FG 48% 7th

On a purely percentage basis he's bottom half.
 
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Ronman

HR Heisman
Jan 4, 2004
9,284
7,654
113
Planet Iowa
We're not going to resolve this issue on a message board. No matter what McCaffery does, a certain segment of fans will criticize him. What does bother me is the fact that our team 3 point shooting % seems to be slowly slipping and it is a huge chunk of our offensive attack.
 

jonesy5960

HR All-American
Sep 6, 2012
3,943
6,768
113
We're not going to resolve this issue on a message board. No matter what McCaffery does, a certain segment of fans will criticize him. What does bother me is the fact that our team 3 point shooting % seems to be slowly slipping and it is a huge chunk of our offensive attack.
It's actually not.
 

BBHawk

HR Legend
Oct 31, 2001
26,984
19,550
113
Iowa City
I think you might have missed the point of my statement. His 2 point shooting percentage would actually be much lower if they included fouled misses in the number of attempts which they don't. If you're looking for normalized shooting percentages that takes into account the 3 point shooting point differential, you would use Effective Field Goal percentage. Patrick's percentages and where he ranks in the 10 man rotation are:

2 point 50% Tied for fifth with Cmac and Sandfort
3 point 29% 9th
Effective FG 48% 7th

On a purely percentage basis he's bottom half.
So what IS your point?
😉
 

Lighting Hawk

HR All-State
Gold Member
Sep 16, 2021
902
1,730
93
So what IS your point?
😉

That you are a big ol Pmac lover!!!! Lol

To be serious for a sec though, Pmac doesn’t seem to draw nearly enough fouls for as good of a free throw shooter as he is. He shoots off of one leg fading away often, his running shots are extremely to make so defenders don’t foul. He needs to cut back on the cute shit and go up strong and draw fouls with contact like Keegan does every time he is in the paint. He does make some ridiculous shots sometimes but like @jonesy5960 said, his field goal % would be significantly lower if you took account the fouled misses. I don’t see a good argument in saying 42% from the field is actually good though, when you play SF/3.
 

BBHawk

HR Legend
Oct 31, 2001
26,984
19,550
113
Iowa City
That you are a big ol Pmac lover!!!! Lol

To be serious for a sec though, Pmac doesn’t seem to draw nearly enough fouls for as good of a free throw shooter as he is. He shoots off of one leg fading away often, his running shots are extremely to make so defenders don’t foul. He needs to cut back on the cute shit and go up strong and draw fouls with contact like Keegan does every time he is in the paint. He does make some ridiculous shots sometimes but like @jonesy5960 said, his field goal % would be significantly lower if you took account the fouled misses. I don’t see a good argument in saying 42% from the field is actually good though, when you play SF/3.
Did I say 42% was good? And I said his field goal % was almost 50% when not , and Jonesy came back with it being only 48%. Wow. Talk about nitpicking.
 

Lighting Hawk

HR All-State
Gold Member
Sep 16, 2021
902
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Did I say 42% was good? And I said his field goal % was almost 50% when not , and Jonesy came back with it being only 48%. Wow. Talk about nitpicking.

No you didn’t, and I see your original message was against some irrational non-statistically based poster my apologies..

If FG% is the stat being discussed, thought I’d just hit home the fact that Patrick’s eFG% is very poor due to shot selection and his poor 3 point shooting so far this season. Not disputable IMO. He is an excellent FT shooter but only gets just over 3.5 FTA/game. So he’s not getting hacked that often. Just needs to get to the line a few more times and i’d be a happy camper.
 
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jonesy5960

HR All-American
Sep 6, 2012
3,943
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Did I say 42% was good? And I said his field goal % was almost 50% when not , and Jonesy came back with it being only 48%. Wow. Talk about nitpicking.
Never said his field goal percentage was "only" 48% vs 50% because that would be incorrect. You have all of the metrics wrong so I was helping you. You said his fg% percentage would be higher if he wasn't getting fouled on all those drives to the basket. You were wrong so I provided a correction.

You keep confusing overall FG% with effective FG% even with your last comment. His overall FG% is not 48% or 50%. It's 43%. His Effective FG% which is actually the best metric to use when comparing players because it accounts for the difference between 2 and 3 point shots is 48%.

If it makes you feel better I agree that 48% and 50% are very close. How's that?
 
Last edited:

BBHawk

HR Legend
Oct 31, 2001
26,984
19,550
113
Iowa City
Never said his field goal percentage was "only" 48% vs 50% because that would be incorrect. You have all of the metrics wrong so I was helping you. You said his fg% percentage would be higher if he wasn't getting fouled on all those drives to the basket. You were wrong so I provided a correction.

You keep confusing overall FG% with effective FG% even with your last comment. His overall FG% is not 48% or 50%. It's 43%. His Effective FG% which is actually the best metric to use when comparing players because it accounts for the difference between 2 and 3 point shots is 48%.

If it makes you feel better I agree that 48% and 50% are very close. How's that?
Thanks. I acknowledged what you said about the fouled and missed shots not counting, didn't I?

And again, I said "almost 50%" for his overall 2 pt percentage. That is pretty specific, but if you want to go with effective %, great.
 

BBHawk

HR Legend
Oct 31, 2001
26,984
19,550
113
Iowa City
Yes you did and 43% is not almost almost 50%.
The overall FG % includes 3 pt shots. I referred to his 2 pt %. Take the 9 of 30 3 pt shots away from the FG numbers and PMac is 33 of 65. That makes his 2 pt % just over 50%. His 3 pt % sucks at 30.8% but he seems to be shooting it better kately. But, since this discussion centered around his poor percentage when driving to the bucket, seems like considering just 2 pt shots is relevant to the discussion.
 

jonesy5960

HR All-American
Sep 6, 2012
3,943
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The overall FG % includes 3 pt shots. I referred to his 2 pt %. Take the 9 of 30 3 pt shots away from the FG numbers and PMac is 33 of 65. That makes his 2 pt % just over 50%. His 3 pt % sucks at 30.8% but he seems to be shooting it better kately. But, since this discussion centered around his poor percentage when driving to the bucket, seems like considering just 2 pt shots is relevant to the discussion.
I don't really care about what Patrick's absolute numbers are. That's more your concern. I was just trying to help you understand what the metrics you were throwing out actually represent. If you look through this thread you tend to conflate "overall" or "total" FG% with effective FG%. They're not the same thing. If you want to compare how relatively efficient different shooters are, EFG is the metric you should use since it normalizes 2 and 3 point shooting and is available under advanced metrics.

If you haven't used this site before you should. No math required 😉.

 

Lighting Hawk

HR All-State
Gold Member
Sep 16, 2021
902
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The overall FG % includes 3 pt shots. I referred to his 2 pt %. Take the 9 of 30 3 pt shots away from the FG numbers and PMac is 33 of 65. That makes his 2 pt % just over 50%. His 3 pt % sucks at 30.8% but he seems to be shooting it better kately. But, since this discussion centered around his poor percentage when driving to the bucket, seems like considering just 2 pt shots is relevant to the discussion.

Sure, but that’s also a very controlled statistic. In a vacuum I’d take 50% all day. However that doesn’t matter if he’s not ONLY shooting 2 point shots. He’s taking about 9 shots a game and 3 of them are 3PA. That leaves 2/3 of his shot selection being 2’s, and he’s only making half of them which is only about 3 field goals. Not terrible. But if you want to compare his 2P shot % to the rest of the team, he’s 8th in % and he takes the second most on the team.

Like I said if that’s what his overall eFG was, it’d be a different story. I think you’re trying very hard to make Pmac seem more efficient than he actually has been.
 
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BBHawk

HR Legend
Oct 31, 2001
26,984
19,550
113
Iowa City
I don't really care about what Patrick's absolute numbers are. That's more your concern. I was just trying to help you understand what the metrics you were throwing out actually represent. If you look through this thread you tend to conflate "overall" or "total" FG% with effective FG%. They're not the same thing. If you want to compare how relatively efficient different shooters are, EFG is the metric you should use since it normalizes 2 and 3 point shooting and is available under advanced metrics.

If you haven't used this site before you should. No math required 😉.

Thanks. Sounds like we agree, just looking at it a little differently.

And I was a math major. Got a degree in CS. Not exactly illiterate.
 

RocknRollface

HR Legend
Dec 21, 2011
10,811
10,406
113
Any way you slice it Pat takes too many low percentage/high difficulty mid range shots and doesn't draw enough fouls because of that.

The mid range turnarounds and floaters need to go.

If he took the ball all the way to the hoop more often he'd get fouled more often and get to the line.

Dribble less, cut more.

I have no issues with his 3pt selection because he's usually open on those. You have to shoot open 3s.
 
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