Predict
- Thread starter 255
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Not just Iowa. I see it in most programs and at all levels of college. Even my wife (20 yrs of watching) has stated this watching national duals and nationals last year. This problem also stems down to high school when good kids meet up. HS coaches and wrestlers are scared of single mistake costing them a match. Wrestlers ride this notion into college.
Speaking of riding.....well maybe another time
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Question on Brody and apologies if this has been discussed as I don't track the board as often during the off season. How is the weight cut coming along for him? Anyone close to the program have insight? Lots of discussion on this late last season with various opinions on whether this was feasible or not so I'm curious if folks have thoughts on this given he could be so tough at 41 if he can handle managing his weight.
Would like to hear any feedback if someone has insight. Thanks!
You might want to check out the IAWrestle Potentially Dangerous podcast. Brody talks about the cut in that interview, and it's an entertaining listen. I don't recall whether he mentioned where his weight was as the time (it was taped about a month ago), but he did talk about how he's on his way down, and he was optimistic about it. Based on that podcast, at least, it's hard not to believe that he'll get his weight down in plenty of time and without much trouble. Seems quite feasible to me. Of course, the proof will be on the mat this winter. . . .
Regarding the growing tendency to aim to get just one take down in a match, or worse, NONE, etc..(which BTW, I agree with those that feel like this is a sport killer and something needs to be done to break the cycle)
What if, for each wrestler, the first take down was worth 2 points, the second was worth 3 points, the third worth 4 points, etc? I realize that this could be complicated to score during the match in some cases and also that we wouldn't want to "trick up" the scoring so much that it detracts from the dignity of the sport...BUT...these 2-1 and 3-2 snoozefests are already killing the sport IMO.
I think hoping that wrestlers will take more "real" shots in a match, when they have clearly predetermined a "risk minimization" strategy to a match to benefit themselves, is foolhardy. I think we would have far better success changing the rules in some way to reward risk taking(shots) and penalize overly defensive wrestlers.
Not getting jobbed during seeding plays a huge part. We need PSU and tOSU to be on the same side of the bracket in a few key weights also.
Or...the first take down is worth 1 point per wrestler and 2 every TD after.
and/or
No riding time without a TD on the score card.
Not saying Sam won’t throw people, he threw people in H.S. for pins, just tired of people thinking Greco throws are his only technique. He wrestled 5 years of varsity in Folkstyle. As he builds strength and technique at the college level I have to believe he will start dominate more in Folkstyle. His opponents will need to be leery of a multi-facetted offensive approach. He’ll get’er done and the manner in which he does it shouldn't matter.
Interesting. Hadn't heard that one before; it seems to have some merit.
I personally think one of the bigger problems is that it's too difficult to score from on top, which leads to guys just hanging on instead of looking to score. I really wish they would award one point for any back exposure by the top guy. I think that would open up things a lot.
Rearrange scoring pts and eliminating riding time isn't enough, if anything may lead to tighter wrestling IMO. Although, Im very interested to see how push out works at Night of Conflict.
I believe lack offense to be more philosophical. When I see Carl, DT, BM and LS held in awe because of their styles, I question why kids don't emulate chain more.
They are wrestling most dominating icons of the near past and yet we still r seeing less scoring. Something is amiss....chain and momentum wrestling needs to be an actual top priority in HS and not just preached. To many HS and college coachs are fine with 1-2 shots, hold position, noncommittal reshots, tripods for every escape attempt and then look for win in 3rd period.
I believe lack offense to be more philosophical. When I see Carl, DT, BM and LS held in awe because of their styles, I question why kids don't emulate chain more.
They are wrestling most dominating icons of the near past and yet we still r seeing less scoring. Something is amiss....chain and momentum wrestling needs to be an actual top priority in HS and not just preached. To many HS and college coachs are fine with 1-2 shots, hold position, noncommittal reshots, tripods for every escape attempt and then look for win in 3rd period.
That's another good angle. You could also reduce the reversal from 2 to 1 point, so then the risk/reward ratio is evened out for the top wrestler.
Yes. Frankly I think riding time has outlived its welcome but maybe this or something similar can help get action going. Like no 5 team points for a tech without back points. Too many matches have ended on two escapes and a RT point. (2-1 match) That means, very little actually happened. To earn the ability to create or remove RT, you have to take the other guy down. You can still get an early take down and shut down on a guy I guess but that would mean the refs would have to allow it which will happen. Not a perfect idea but at least there is a take down somewhere.
I like your thinking, 255, but the refs have been letting guys stall on top for years now. I don't see that changing any time soon -- especially when the stakes are the highest, like at Nationals, when it really counts. We all know lots of whistles get swallowed every March. I still think the simplest solution with regard to rules is to get rid of RT altogether and put a push-out rule in place. Two very simple changes that won't introduce any real complexities for the refs or for scoring, yet they could dramatically increase action. Refs would need to get used to the push-out, but international refs have no problems calling it.
I think we need to avoid making changes that could be overly complex in an effort to tweak the sport here and there. IMO, the fewer and simpler the rules changes, the better.
I think we need to avoid making changes that could be overly complex in an effort to tweak the sport here and there. IMO, the fewer and simpler the rules changes, the better.
I agree with keeping it simple. Add a push out rule, eliminate the riding time point and bring the wrestlers back to their feet after 30 seconds of mat wrestling. Those changes would increase action and make our style closer to international without adding much complexity.
While mat wrestling may not be the most exciting, it is the equivalent of the running game in football. You can grind the will out of your opponent and still score the "touchdown" slash fall. I don't have a problem with getting rid of riding time or being very aggressive with calling stalling on the top guy. I in fact think the latter has to be implied to keep the integrity of mat wrestling. I have a real problem with just letting guys up after 30 seconds. While I would have loved this as a wrestler, since I sucked at getting out and riding, mat wrestling is what makes folkstyle such a tough sport. It is an absolute mental battle that is playing out that most that have not wrestled can't appreciate. I don't want to get rid of it. I do want the refs to call stalling on top and bottom and reward guys for being aggressive on top and let guys run arm bars a little.
But the Push Out is a no-brainer. These out of bounds stall calls they are trying to implement are F'ing crazy. After watching the Pushing portion of the video I am absolutely convinced the refs are going to lean heavily on just calling action most of the time. The pushing videos looked just like the walking out of bounds videos.
Adding the Push Out rule would appease the change Folk to Free people a little and it just works.
But the Push Out is a no-brainer. These out of bounds stall calls they are trying to implement are F'ing crazy. After watching the Pushing portion of the video I am absolutely convinced the refs are going to lean heavily on just calling action most of the time. The pushing videos looked just like the walking out of bounds videos.
Adding the Push Out rule would appease the change Folk to Free people a little and it just works.
Here's the thing, if the guy on bottom doesn't get out, it's 2-0 so there is going to be a lot of action out of bottom to escape in that 30 seconds. At the same time, I think the rules would have to be tweeked so the top man can't just stall for 30 seconds. Example, instead of a 5 count, hanging on the legs results in an immediate stall point and the wrestlers go to their feet.
This is why I say just scrap RT altogether. The top man has less incentive to hang out on top and more incentive to try and make it worth his while by turning the guy. I agree with Don that mat wrestling is an integral part of folkstyle and that it's worth keeping. I think standing them up after 30 seconds of mat wrestling is overly intrusive.
I do like Gobblin's idea of starting every period in neutral. Let tough riders earn their ride with a takedown. We've seen guys who are great riders but not great on their feet basically win their matches from the top position. IMO, starting them from neutral all three periods rewards the versatile wrestler who can score from multiple positions. Plus, there's often more action from neutral -- especially with a push-out rule.
So, to revise my solution to college wrestling, I like the 3-pronged approach:
1. Push-out rule
2. No RT
3. Start each period from neutral
Now, THAT would be a fun sport to watch, and the guys would have no choice but to get after it and keep after it. Put THAT on a mat at the 50-yard line of a full Kinnick stadium and listen to the crowd roar!
I do like Gobblin's idea of starting every period in neutral. Let tough riders earn their ride with a takedown. We've seen guys who are great riders but not great on their feet basically win their matches from the top position. IMO, starting them from neutral all three periods rewards the versatile wrestler who can score from multiple positions. Plus, there's often more action from neutral -- especially with a push-out rule.
So, to revise my solution to college wrestling, I like the 3-pronged approach:
1. Push-out rule
2. No RT
3. Start each period from neutral
Now, THAT would be a fun sport to watch, and the guys would have no choice but to get after it and keep after it. Put THAT on a mat at the 50-yard line of a full Kinnick stadium and listen to the crowd roar!
Disagree with starting on their feet each period. Mat wrestling needs to remain a important aspect of the sport. Wrestlers need to be skilled at each position. Too many lousy mat wrestlers will try to kill time until the last 30 seconds.
Disagree with standing after 30 seconds for the same reason and because it will start to feel like freestyle.
Basically, those strategies are giving up on mat wrestling rather than improving it.
I would prefer to tweak mat wrestling to make it tougher to get by with stalling and easier to score. Imo there is nothing more exciting than back points.
Btw, definitely agree with the push out, and with the general philosophy of keeping rule changes simple.
Disagree with standing after 30 seconds for the same reason and because it will start to feel like freestyle.
Basically, those strategies are giving up on mat wrestling rather than improving it.
I would prefer to tweak mat wrestling to make it tougher to get by with stalling and easier to score. Imo there is nothing more exciting than back points.
Btw, definitely agree with the push out, and with the general philosophy of keeping rule changes simple.
I don't view starting them in neutral each period to be giving up on mat wrestling. There will be takedowns -- and more of them, with a push-out rule -- so there will still be mat wrestling. Except the riders will have to earn that position on their own rather than being able to select it when it's their choice. I think there'd still be quite a bit of mat wrestling, actually. As it is, we often see quick escapes, and they're on their feet early in the period. We often see the action return to the mat not long after the escape.
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