Selection Monday for Iowa Women. #5 Seed in UConn's Bracket in NCAA Tournament

[Franisdaman]

Prior to the BTT, they were projected as a #7 seed but getting to the B1G Championship game appears to have done wonders for their seeding. Now they are projected as a #5 seed.

In comparison, Maryland is projected as a #2 seed. Iowa lost to Maryland twice this season, of course; by 18 (in the reg season) and 20 (B1G Title game).

Stanford (on paper) has the best team & is the favorite to win it all.

But Iowa has the best player in the country, in Ms. Caitlin Clark.

With a little luck we might see both the Iowa Men & Women in the Sweet 16.



Here is the latest Bracketology by ESPN's Charlie Creme:

Women's Bracketology: Just how good is LSU? The answer is coming

The Tigers' nonconference schedule again lacked punch, but four of their next six games are against teams in the top 10 of the NET.

www.espn.com

 

[Franisdaman]

#5 seed it is, in UConn's bracket

#2 seed Maryland is in South Carolina's bracket

 

[nu2u]

#5 seed it is, in UConn's bracket

#2 seed Maryland is in South Carolina's bracket

Would love to see a Maryland vs Connecticut match-up. That would be a great game, I think, and as much as I like Clark, Bueckers is clearly the better player. It would be interesting to see if Maryland could stop her.

 

[Franisdaman]

Would love to see a Maryland vs Connecticut match-up. That would be a great game, I think, and as much as I like Clark, Bueckers is clearly the better player. It would be interesting to see if Maryland could stop her.

the only way Maryland & UConn are meeting is in the Championship game

 

[IowaHawkeyeFBnBB4Life]

Central Michigan is a tough draw. They did lose to Michigan and MSU.

 

[SotaHawk87]

Clark vs Bueckers

 

[nu2u]

Clark vs Bueckers

That would be great. UCONN is loaded with a bunch of Top25 players so Bueckers has a better supporting cast but would love to see Clark score another 30 if that match-up happens.

 

[huntermmm]

Central Michigan is a tough draw. They did lose to Michigan and MSU.

Any have a quick rundown of Central Michigan? What are our chances looking like?

 

[KuwaitHawk]

Sounds great playing in the Riverwalk region. Put a few of the barges together, float them somewhere on the river. Really would be the riverwalk region.

 

[cyberhawk]

Michigan 93-75 Central Michigan (Nov 25, 2020) Final Score - ESPN

Game summary of the Michigan Wolverines vs. Central Michigan Chippewas NCAAW game, final score 93-75, from November 25, 2020 on ESPN.

www.espn.com

Michigan State 79-70 Central Michigan (Dec 18, 2020) Final Score - ESPN

Game summary of the Michigan State Spartans vs. Central Michigan Chippewas NCAAW game, final score 79-70, from December 18, 2020 on ESPN.

www.espn.com

 

[just_somebody]

 

[The Deplorable Sleeping Dog]

The girls have an easier road to the Sweet 16 than the boys. Either way I think both teams make it to the Sweet 16 with real shots at a Regional Final.

Wow, that tournament run really moved the girls. Go get 'em Caitlin, Monika and Gabby. Do what you did in the BTT and you will be in the Sweet 16, again.

 

[JupiterHawk]

Bueckers is clearly the better player.

what do you base that on?

 

[hagarwood]

Central Michigan is Coach Harmon's old school.
This is what I've dug up so far/ Central Michigan's asst coach is Gail Goetenkors (think head coach at Duke and later Texas). In 2018 they beat LSU and tOSU to make the sweet 16 and in 2019 they lost 78-77 to MSU in the opening round. They are a small team that relies on 6 players (their bench goes maybe 8 deep - injuries). Their inside players are 6"1 and 6"0 and the guards are 5"6,5"7, and 5"9. and they have a 5'10 bench player. They have two primary scorers Sr. Micaela Kelly 23.9 and Soph. Molly Davis 20.9 (they are the 5'6 and 5'7 guards). They have 2 primary rebounders Jahari Smith 6'0 7.5 and Kyra Bissell 6"1 4.5 (Kyra is the one with some bulk Jahari looks slimmer). The team averages 78 points per game shooting 36% from 3. making 260 this year. They have 367 TO's and have forced 359 TO's.Their 3rd leading scorer is Soph. Maddy Watters 9.6 and they have Soph. Anika Weeks off the bench 4.8 and 5.8.

 

[Hawkeye079]

Central Michigan is a tough draw. They did lose to Michigan and MSU.

You literally think any team playing any Iowa team is a tough draw

 

[KuwaitHawk]

Every opponent is tough per the head coach.

 

[iwinagain]

Are they allowing fans at games

 

[Franisdaman]

How good is Kentucky (the 4 seed)? If we win the opener, they are likely the next opponnent.

 

[nu2u]

what do you base that on?

Better shooter, less turnovers, better ball handler, remarkably clutch performer. I don't think the gap between the two players is too great that Clark can't make up the difference though.

 

[libertyhawkeye]

The amount of negative energy exerted by UConn and some other other 'blueblood' NCAAW fans is surprising. Any positive article or comment by someone like Sue Bird about Clark is attacked by the Huskie faithful. I don't understand, is UConn not getting the attention they deserve? Are they not annually a national championship contenders? Is Bueckers not the most popular name in the sport?

Poor little ole Iowa can't catch a break. UConn fans cannot stand that another great player rivals their own star freshman. They argue that Clark shouldn't be talked about or isn't good (actual people make this argument!) because the Iowa team 'isn't good'. Of course Iowa isn't as good as UConn. Iowa doesn't get multiple 5 star players every class. We have 1 and that's too much. For whatever reason insecurity is prevalent among many of them.

The women's game is typically a contrastingly positive sport to the toxic energy that often reverberates around college football or men's basketball. I hope Iowa can beat CMU and Kentucky and that Clark can showcase her skills against UConn. Little chance at winning but just achieving the Sweet 16 this year would be spectacular considering the youth of this roster.

 

[nu2u]

Micaela Kelly is a ridiculously good player for CMU. I watched her score 38 points against a ranked SDSU team and came away believing she could definitely play for any major school. No limit to her offense, She can drive and score, hit from mid-range or long range (7/8 from 3 that game). Her ball handling skills are superb. She has WBNA talent. Hawk fans will enjoy watching her play.... hopefully not too much though.

 

[SoFla-Hawkeye]

ESPN Sunday @ 11:00 CDT #GoHAWKS!!!

 

[Franisdaman]

check this out & watch:

 

[DodgerHawki]

The amount of negative energy exerted by UConn and some other other 'blueblood' NCAAW fans is surprising. Any positive article or comment by someone like Sue Bird about Clark is attacked by the Huskie faithful. I don't understand, is UConn not getting the attention they deserve? Are they not annually a national championship contenders? Is Bueckers not the most popular name in the sport?

Poor little ole Iowa can't catch a break. UConn fans cannot stand that another great player rivals their own star freshman. They argue that Clark shouldn't be talked about or isn't good (actual people make this argument!) because the Iowa team 'isn't good'. Of course Iowa isn't as good as UConn. Iowa doesn't get multiple 5 star players every class. We have 1 and that's too much. For whatever reason insecurity is prevalent among many of them.

The women's game is typically a contrastingly positive sport to the toxic energy that often reverberates around college football or men's basketball. I hope Iowa can beat CMU and Kentucky and that Clark can showcase her skills against UConn. Little chance at winning but just achieving the Sweet 16 this year would be spectacular considering the youth of this roster.

Yeah I don't get it either. Is it UConn's birthright to have every good player in the country? It would appear so. Of course they are miles better than Iowa. Should Iowa win twice and get to the Sweet 16, the outcome is highly likely to be like the Iowa-Maryland matchups, only UConn is better than Maryland. If you put Clark on UConn, surrounded by other 5-star players, her scoring average likely goes way down, as do her turnovers and her assists stay high.

Over time my hope is that the women's game grows to the point where the depth of talent is such that there is not such a huge gap between the best teams and the "good" teams (teams in the 15-50 range). The women's game has come such a long way overall. But if you aren't a fan of one of the very best teams, it's not terribly compelling.

 

[nu2u]

Yeah I don't get it either. Is it UConn's birthright to have every good player in the country? It would appear so. Of course they are miles better than Iowa. Should Iowa win twice and get to the Sweet 16, the outcome is highly likely to be like the Iowa-Maryland matchups, only UConn is better than Maryland. If you put Clark on UConn, surrounded by other 5-star players, her scoring average likely goes way down, as do her turnovers and her assists stay high.

Over time my hope is that the women's game grows to the point where the depth of talent is such that there is not such a huge gap between the best teams and the "good" teams (teams in the 15-50 range). The women's game has come such a long way overall. But if you aren't a fan of one of the very best teams, it's not terribly compelling.

I call it the "UCLA effect" - many of the most talented prospects are attracted to play for a powerhouse program. The dynasty and all that entails - prestige, honor, winning, championship level exposure - essentially recruits itself. John Wooden built UCLA basketball into a dynasty in the 1960s after building the program from the ground up in the 1950's. During their remarkable run of victories and championships, Wooden could have signed just about any athlete that met his five criteria for success. He once remarked that he occasionally became inundated with inquiries from coaches and players pitching their interest.

We all know what happened to UCLA after Wooden resigned. The appeal is closely associated with the coach IMO. The same thing will likely happen to UCONN ,at least to some extent, once Auriemma leaves. They will unlikely attract such a concentration of Top25 talent as they do now.

 

[libertyhawkeye]

All very good points. With parity, women's basketball is in some respects more comparable to college football than men's basketball. Every Bluder team has probably placed somewhere in the 15-50 range but even the 2019 Elite 8 team wasn't on the same planet as Baylor.

Even though the Big Ten has a bunch of quality teams at the top, Maryland is the only team that can sniff a Final Four right now. Iowa will never consistently get 5 star players but if they can go to multiple Sweet Sixteens in the next couple years, then attracting multiple top-50 players could be the norm under Bluder. You don't need 3 or 4 Caitlin Clarks but having a couple more athletes on the floor built more similar to her would make a difference. Iowa always has skilled shooters and post players, but lack the athletic talent.

 

[DodgerHawki]

All very good points. With parity, women's basketball is in some respects more comparable to college football than men's basketball. Every Bluder team has probably placed somewhere in the 15-50 range but even the 2019 Elite 8 team wasn't on the same planet as Baylor.

Even though the Big Ten has a bunch of quality teams at the top, Maryland is the only team that can sniff a Final Four right now. Iowa will never consistently get 5 star players but if they can go to multiple Sweet Sixteens in the next couple years, then attracting multiple top-50 players could be the norm under Bluder. You don't need 3 or 4 Caitlin Clarks but having a couple more athletes on the floor built more similar to her would make a difference. Iowa always has skilled shooters and post players, but lack the athletic talent.

Yeah I would think that would be the hope, that a couple of other elite talents want to play with Clark while she's here. Bluder has a very good program, she has been a model of consistency. Hopefully they can get a Big 10 regular season title here in the next couple of years.

 

[JupiterHawk]

Better shooter, less turnovers, better ball handler, remarkably clutch performer. I don't think the gap between the two players is too great that Clark can't make up the difference though.

Below are the stats.

Season	Team	Type	G	Min	FGM	FGA	FG%	3PM	3PA	3P%	FTM	FTA	FT%	OR	DR	Reb	Ast	TO	Stl	Blk	Pts
2020-21	CONN	Reg	21	36	7.8	14.5	53.6	2.4	5	47.6	1.9	2.3	81.3	0.4	4.2	4.6	6.2	2.5	2.4	0.3	19.8
2020-21	IOWA	Reg	23	33	9.1	18.7	48.7	4	9.5	42	5.2	6	85.6	0.7	5.3	6	6.8	4.9	1.3	0.5	27.4
2020-21	CONN	Post	3	33	7.7	13.7	56.1	1.7	3.7	45.5	2.3	2.3	100	0.7	3.7	4.3	5	3	1.7	1	19.3
2020-21	IOWA	Post	4	36	7	18.8	37.3	2.8	8.8	31.4	5.5	6.3	88	0	5	5	9.3	4.5	1	0	22.3

 

[huntermmm]

Yeah I would think that would be the hope, that a couple of other elite talents want to play with Clark while she's here. Bluder has a very good program, she has been a model of consistency. Hopefully they can get a Big 10 regular season title here in the next couple of years.

It seems like the 2021 and 2022 recruiting classes are pretty set. Any chances on getting another 5-star for 2023?

 

[cyberhawk]

Would love to see a Maryland vs Connecticut match-up. That would be a great game, I think, and as much as I like Clark, Bueckers is clearly the better player. It would be interesting to see if Maryland could stop her.

Caitlin and Bueckers are both phenomenal players, but I believe it is not possible to say that one is clearly better than the other. In order to make a cogent case, it would be necessary to have a mutually acceptable system or formula based on objective (typically numeric) metrics, such as statistics provide. While statistics do provide a measure of comparison, they cannot possibly and do not completely provide a universally agreeable standard for comparing relative value. Yet, there are some very good esoteric offensive statistics that support the argument that Caitlin is a better offensive player than Bueckers. Also, I think it can be objectively asserted that Caitlin stretches defenses more with her greater shooting range. In addition, while comparing relative defensive value can be done with a few objective defense oriented statistics such as steals, blocks and rebounds, these are not necessarily all there is to consider, and I think are inconclusive in establishing which player is superior. Then there is the comparisons for intangibles which by nature cannot possibly be objectively measured. Therefore, while I would not assert that Caitlin is clearly superior to Bueckers, I disagree with the assertion that Bueckers is clearly better.

As far as a UConn/Maryland final, it is entirely possible and is one of the most likely and interesting scenarios. I’d rather see Iowa/Maryland though.

 

[cyberhawk]

Central Michigan is Coach Harmon's old school.
This is what I've dug up so far/ Central Michigan's asst coach is Gail Goetenkors (think head coach at Duke and later Texas). In 2018 they beat LSU and tOSU to make the sweet 16 and in 2019 they lost 78-77 to MSU in the opening round. They are a small team that relies on 6 players (their bench goes maybe 8 deep - injuries). Their inside players are 6"1 and 6"0 and the guards are 5"6,5"7, and 5"9. and they have a 5'10 bench player. They have two primary scorers Sr. Micaela Kelly 23.9 and Soph. Molly Davis 20.9 (they are the 5'6 and 5'7 guards). They have 2 primary rebounders Jahari Smith 6'0 7.5 and Kyra Bissell 6"1 4.5 (Kyra is the one with some bulk Jahari looks slimmer). The team averages 78 points per game shooting 36% from 3. making 260 this year. They have 367 TO's and have forced 359 TO's.Their 3rd leading scorer is Soph. Maddy Watters 9.6 and they have Soph. Anika Weeks off the bench 4.8 and 5.8.

Nice summary scouting report. Thanks

 

[cyberhawk]

Better shooter, less turnovers, better ball handler, remarkably clutch performer. I don't think the gap between the two players is too great that Clark can't make up the difference though.

I think that ‘better shooter’ and ‘better ball handler’ are disputable. Statistics do not bear this out. ‘Remarkably clutch performer’ could also be said of Caitlin. Fewer turnovers is true but it is only one statistic and is less glaring when related to total possessions. Again, all the statistics do not support one player clearly better than the other.

 

[BraydonRoberts5]

Alright let's do this: Clark vs. Bueckers

2 point shooting- Bueckers shoots 3.6% better from two, but Clark shoots nearly 3 times the number of free throws (which mostly come from 2 point shots). I'd rather have more free throws than a slightly higher shooting percentage. Advantage Clark.

3 point shooting- Bueckers shoots just under 7% better, but averages half the number of attempts per game the Clark does. It's harder to shoot a higher percentage at volume, and Clark has to shoot more out of necessity. I also think Clark has to take the harder three point shots, which impacts her percentage. I still give this to Bueckers, though. Advantage Bueckers.

Free Throws- Clark shoots 2.4% better and averages with a significantly higher volume. Advantage Clark, but it's not huge.

Assists- Clark averages 1 more assist per game than Bueckers despite playing more difficult competition and having less high rated players around her. Advantage Clark.

Rebounds- Clark averages 1.4 more rebounds per game than Bueckers. Her numbers would probably be lower if Czinano was a better rebounder, but she also works hard to grab boards. Advantage Clark.

Steals/Blocks- They average the same amount of blocks and Bueckers averages 1.1 more steals per game the Clark. Advantage Bueckers.

Non-Stat Defense- Bueckers has a reputation as a good defender. Clark is far from Iowa's worst defender, but I wouldn't call her good. Advantage Bueckers.

Turnovers- Clark averages 2.3 more per game than Bueckers. That said, Coach Bluder's system favors high risk passes, keeps the ball in Clark's hands a lot, and also asks her to make something happen every time the Hawks haven't scored and the shot clock is at 10 seconds or less. Some (but not all) of the turnover difference here is down to where Clark plays and what she's asked to do. Advantage Bueckers.

Conclusion- Clark and Bueckers are both phenomenal and I don't think you can clearly say one is better than the other. They do have different strengths and weaknesses, though, so you could favor one playing style over the other.

 

[nu2u]

Alright let's do this: Clark vs. Bueckers

2 point shooting- Bueckers shoots 3.6% better from two, but Clark shoots nearly 3 times the number of free throws (which mostly come from 2 point shots). I'd rather have more free throws than a slightly higher shooting percentage. Advantage Clark.

3 point shooting- Bueckers shoots just under 7% better, but averages half the number of attempts per game the Clark does. It's harder to shoot a higher percentage at volume, and Clark has to shoot more out of necessity. I also think Clark has to take the harder three point shots, which impacts her percentage. I still give this to Bueckers, though. Advantage Bueckers.

Free Throws- Clark shoots 2.4% better and averages with a significantly higher volume. Advantage Clark, but it's not huge.

Assists- Clark averages 1 more assist per game than Bueckers despite playing more difficult competition and having less high rated players around her. Advantage Clark.

Rebounds- Clark averages 1.4 more rebounds per game than Bueckers. Her numbers would probably be lower if Czinano was a better rebounder, but she also works hard to grab boards. Advantage Clark.

Steals/Blocks- They average the same amount of blocks and Bueckers averages 1.1 more steals per game the Clark. Advantage Bueckers.

Non-Stat Defense- Bueckers has a reputation as a good defender. Clark is far from Iowa's worst defender, but I wouldn't call her good. Advantage Bueckers.

Turnovers- Clark averages 2.3 more per game than Bueckers. That said, Coach Bluder's system favors high risk passes, keeps the ball in Clark's hands a lot, and also asks her to make something happen every time the Hawks haven't scored and the shot clock is at 10 seconds or less. Some (but not all) of the turnover difference here is down to where Clark plays and what she's asked to do. Advantage Bueckers.

Conclusion- Clark and Bueckers are both phenomenal and I don't think you can clearly say one is better than the other. They do have different strengths and weaknesses, though, so you could favor one playing style over the other.

That's a pretty good breakdown and comparison. I love watching both players. A I previously stated, I believe that Bueckers is the better player now. and that the gap is not great. Of course there may be bias involved but WBB media has almost uniformly rated Bueckers as the better all-around player this year.

Clark's high TO rate hurt her I think. I also mentioned clutch performances. Bueckers had a couple unbelievable games this year. I think her Jordan-esqe performance against No.1 South Carolina might have sealed the deal for her conference and national POY awards - she almost single-handedly led her team to victory by hitting key baskets late to tie it then a 3PT shot in OT to seal the win.

 

[brfhilltop]

I also believe Caitlin got some turnovers that should have gone to other players. When rewatching games I paid closer attention to her when she made turnovers and those games which she turned the ball over more I came up with 2 less turnovers than what she had in the box score.

 

[libertyhawkeye]

The area where Clark can most easily improve is her defense. Her lapses are more to do with positioning or lacking anticipation. She has the physical tools and lateral quickness to be a great defender.

Turnovers could also be limited if she varies her dribbling some more. She attracts a lot of attention because of who she is. Her behind the back crossover from her right side to left is lowkey already legendary. She has the ability to mix that up with other moves to either finish at the rim or clear space to make a clean effective pass.

 

[r448chlpo]

Two excellent players, obviously. Context is the key-- making head to head numbers comparisons is somewhat misleading. They play different roles on teams with divergent talent and competition. The important point is Clark is a Hawkeye and she is only slightly better or not as good as Bueckers. They both will have long careers, health allowing, and the "who is better argument" will last for some time; kinda like Jordan v (the very self-righteous) James. Rah, yea, Clark!

 

[wneff]

All very good points. With parity, women's basketball is in some respects more comparable to college football than men's basketball. Every Bluder team has probably placed somewhere in the 15-50 range but even the 2019 Elite 8 team wasn't on the same planet as Baylor.

Even though the Big Ten has a bunch of quality teams at the top, Maryland is the only team that can sniff a Final Four right now. Iowa will never consistently get 5 star players but if they can go to multiple Sweet Sixteens in the next couple years, then attracting multiple top-50 players could be the norm under Bluder. You don't need 3 or 4 Caitlin Clarks but having a couple more athletes on the floor built more similar to her would make a difference. Iowa always has skilled shooters and post players, but lack the athletic talent.

I realize it wasn't meant to be, but simply plugging Ashley Joens (was she Top 25 or Top 50?) into the Hawkeye line-up would make them IMHO clearly better than everyone but Maryland in the conference.

 

[BraydonRoberts5]

I realize it wasn't meant to be, but simply plugging Ashley Joens (was she Top 25 or Top 50?) into the Hawkeye line-up would make them IMHO clearly better than everyone but Maryland in the conference.

A merged Iowa-Iowa State roster would be a National Title contender or close. Clark, Czinano, and Joens would be a nearly unstoppable trio on offense. Donarski would be a great addition on the wing. Not sure if the defense would be all that much better (I don't watch enough Iowa State to know how good their defense is), but we would pretty easily be the top scoring team in the country.

 

[BraydonRoberts5]

That's a pretty good breakdown and comparison. I love watching both players. A I previously stated, I believe that Bueckers is the better player now. and that the gap is not great. Of course there may be bias involved but WBB media has almost uniformly rated Bueckers as the better all-around player this year.

Clark's high TO rate hurt her I think. I also mentioned clutch performances. Bueckers had a couple unbelievable games this year. I think her Jordan-esqe performance against No.1 South Carolina might have sealed the deal for her conference and national POY awards - she almost single-handedly led her team to victory by hitting key baskets late to tie it then a 3PT shot in OT to seal the win.

Clark has also been clutch, though. See the 4th quarter against Iowa State. Or the deep three she hit at Nebraska when they were coming back and all the momentum was against Iowa. Or how she hit 4 or 5 baskets on the closing possessions of the half in the final few weeks of the season.

I don't mind when people think one might be slightly better than the other. But I see a lot of UConn fans assert Bueckers is clearly better. And a lot of Iowa fans say Clark is clearly better. I just don't think that's true.

As for national awards, Bueckers is a great player, had a great season, and plays for arguably the best team in the country. Clark is a great player, had a great season, but plays for a borderline Top 25 team. For a lot of the national media, that's where the award inquiry ends.

I disagree with that approach because if you put Bueckers on Iowa the team probably wouldn't be any better than it is with Clark. Players shouldn't get punished for not going to the very best teams, but they often do.