So how long would Hayden have lasted in this new era...

[cmhawks99]

Knowing what we now know, the new "message board age" is very critical of KF?!

How long would Hayden have lasted, knowing he scored ...

14 points or less vs BIG 10 competition an astounding 49 times..

Lost to as many Sub .500 BIG 10 teams and...

Despite being an offensives genius scored 40 points way less times...22?

How long before the critics would have wanted him fired?

The above are ALL message board hot buttons for KF, how long before Hayden would feel the same heat for being worse?

 

[DodgerHawki]

Knowing what we now know, the new "message board age" is very critical of KF?!

How long would Hayden have lasted, knowing he scored ...

14 points or less vs BIG 10 competition an astounding 49 times..

Lost to as many Sub .500 BIG 10 teams and...

Despite being an offensives genius scored 40 points way less times...22?

How long before the critics would have wanted him fired?

The above are ALL message board hot buttons for KF, how long before Hayden would feel the same heat for being worse?

I get what you're saying but not sure it's wise to pick this scab. Hayden will always have a special place as he brought the program out of a two-decade slumber. But you are correct that narratives get created and people won't move off them, no matter what.

To address your question, Hayden would adapt as he proved to be more than capable of adapting over his career. He brought the first African-American player into the Southwest Conference (correct me if I'm wrong). He had a good feel for when to take attention from his team by calling out the media and putting the attention on him. KF is equally as adept (despite what others have said). You don't maintain the level of winning without being willing to examine things every so often and looking for ways to change.

 

[cmhawks99]

I get what you're saying but not sure it's wise to pick this scab. Hayden will always have a special place as he brought the program out of a two-decade slumber. But you are correct that narratives get created and people won't move off them, no matter what.

To address your question, Hayden would adapt as he proved to be more than capable of adapting over his career. He brought the first African-American player into the Southwest Conference (correct me if I'm wrong). He had a good feel for when to take attention from his team by calling out the media and putting the attention on him. KF is equally as adept (despite what others have said). You don't maintain the level of winning without being willing to examine things every so often and looking for ways to change.

I believe you are correct and awesome retort by the way. It's just hard to understand as many times as you put it in front of them they still fail to recognize his offense & teams werent what they remembered.

 

[anon_i8nzeu2gbf0ba]

How would Babe Ruth have done in today's MLB? How would Knute Rockne have done in todays CFB?
Most intelligent people realize you can only judge people against what they did against their peers in their own era.

For sure, Hayden Fry would be a helluva lot richer if he were coaching these days. That and he did what everyone said was impossible: returning Iowa football to the national stage.

Give KF his due, but he pales in comparison to Hayden Fry and Forest Evashevski as Hawkeye football coaches. Not to mention that it was Fry who gave the totally unqualified KF his first shot at major college football coaching. KF pretty much owes Fry everything.

 

[JEDN]

Not sure many on this board are even aware of the 19 consecutive non-winning seasons before the arrival of Hayden and the status of Iowa in the college football hierarchy.The answer is rock bottom. Kirk is a fine man and decent coach but I will never be convinced KF could turn around a program like Hayden did at Iowa.

 

[soybean]

Knowing what we now know, the new "message board age" is very critical of KF?!

How long would Hayden have lasted, knowing he scored ...

14 points or less vs BIG 10 competition an astounding 49 times..

Lost to as many Sub .500 BIG 10 teams and...

Despite being an offensives genius scored 40 points way less times...22?

How long before the critics would have wanted him fired?

The above are ALL message board hot buttons for KF, how long before Hayden would feel the same heat for being worse?

Hayden gained himself a decade of grace, at least, when he rescued Iowa Football from 20 years of mediocrity and got the Hawks into the Rose Bowl in his third year, And that was back when the Rose Bowl was the holy grail of the college game and was considered the righful property of The Big Two.

I honestly don't understand the motivation of the OP in his trying to manufacture a controversity that does not exsist.

 

[cmhawks99]

Hayden gained himself a decade of grace, at least, when he rescued Iowa Football from 20 years of mediocrity and got the Hawks into the Rose Bowl in his third year, And that was back when the Rose Bowl was the holy grail of the college game and was considered the righful property of The Big Two.

I honestly don't understand the motivation of the OP in his trying to manufacture a controversity that does not exsist.

Whoaaaaaaa, 1ST off I've always enjoyed what you have to say and have NO desire to screw with you. But I know you come here off the pay board from time to time and we BOTH know this IS the controversy....

We have posters right now on the board this minute, who actually refuse to acknowledge their hypocrisy when it comes to these two men...its shameful and you know its there.

THAT is what the OP is doing, forcing them to acknowledge Hayden had way more shi$$y scoring games than KF...

 

[Johnsoda123]

Hayden gained himself a decade of grace, at least, when he rescued Iowa Football from 20 years of mediocrity and got the Hawks into the Rose Bowl in his third year, And that was back when the Rose Bowl was the holy grail of the college game and was considered the righful property of The Big Two.

I honestly don't understand the motivation of the OP in his trying to manufacture a controversity that does not exsist.

I like CM. He has some unexplicable bias towards Fry and some affinity towards KF. He is not like us Soy. We appreciate the program under both coaches. On both of our bucket lists is Iowa playing for a national championship. Full stop.

 

[cmhawks99]

Not sure many on this board are even aware of the 19 consecutive non-winning seasons before the arrival of Hayden and the status of Iowa in the college football hierarchy.The answer is rock bottom. Kirk is a fine man and decent coach but I will never be convinced KF could turn around a program like Hayden did at Iowa.

OK, now that I understand, honestly that's even fair. Not sure I do or don't agree, but I can get it. But as I've now said today 4 or 5 times. Those 70's team were horrendously coached....they had some talent and that showed immediately.

I'm wired differently....I empathetic, but I see things for what they are. Saving us doesn't change anything in my mind or give him all-time status as many think, especially when it comes to some fans disparaging others with "tighter" standards, than they shouldered Hayden with .

 

[Pepperman]

I don’t get this vendetta either but I’ll say this... clock rules were different under Hayden, offenses were different in general, and so I’m not sure comparing scoring between these two great men is worth much as a study.

Now, I would also say Hayden was a very good salesman so my best guess is he would still be quite popular even today.

 

[cmhawks99]

I don’t get this vendetta either but I’ll say this... clock rules were different under Hayden, offenses were different in general, and so I’m not sure comparing scoring between these two great men is worth much as a study.

Now, I would also say Hayden was a very good salesman so my best guess is he would still be quite popular even today.

Actually agree with this...he is/was better liked for sure...

And again with the Vendetta...is it not enough for me to be irritated seeing posters dance around telling us whenever they can that Hayden was an offensive mastermind and KF a stooge...that's not enough?! Seriously, that isn't enough of an agenda. I literally despise people who just refuse to look for the Truth.

I don't care what the rules were....he scored 14 points or less 49 times....I promise you these KF critics don't like hearing it. If I never have to hear HF is waayyy better than KF again, I promise I, nor those on here like me (there are several by the way) will every point out these unfortunate facts about Hayden again...

it is the ONLY reason I bring it up...THE ONLY!!!!

 

[soybean]

Actually agree with this...he is/was better liked for sure...

And again with the Vendetta...is it not enough for me to be irritated seeing posters dance around telling us whenever they can that Hayden was an offensive mastermind and KF a stooge...that's not enough?! Seriously, that isn't enough of an agenda. I literally despise people who just refuse to look for the Truth.

I don't care what the rules were....he scored 14 points or less 49 times....I promise you these KF critics don't like hearing it. If I never have to hear HF is waayyy better than KF again, I promise I, nor those on here like me (there are several by the way) will every point out these unfortunate facts about Hayden again...

it is the ONLY reason I bring it up...THE ONLY!!!!

What if I said I don't believe you?

 

[Pepperman]

Actually agree with this...he is/was better liked for sure...

And again with the Vendetta...is it not enough for me to be irritated seeing posters dance around telling us whenever they can that Hayden was an offensive mastermind and KF a stooge...that's not enough?! Seriously, that isn't enough of an agenda. I literally despise people who just refuse to look for the Truth.

I don't care what the rules were....he scored 14 points or less 49 times....I promise you these KF critics don't like hearing it. If I never have to hear HF is waayyy better than KF again, I promise I, nor those on here like me (there are several by the way) will every point out these unfortunate facts about Hayden again...

it is the ONLY reason I bring it up...THE ONLY!!!!

Ok, well, I think you’ve made your point a few times then. I get that you’ve put some time into this project too. I’m sure there are many people that, like me, saw the data and said “well, what do you say, maybe Hayden’s teams had a few more struggles that I remembered...”

 

[RocknRollface]

Knowing what we now know, the new "message board age" is very critical of KF?!

How long would Hayden have lasted, knowing he scored ...

14 points or less vs BIG 10 competition an astounding 49 times..

Lost to as many Sub .500 BIG 10 teams and...

Despite being an offensives genius scored 40 points way less times...22?

How long before the critics would have wanted him fired?

The above are ALL message board hot buttons for KF, how long before Hayden would feel the same heat for being worse?

Everyone was scoring less points back then.

Im guessing Hayden could have averaged 7 wins a year too, so he could have lasted as long as he wanted here.

Especially if his best seasons all came up front cementing an impression of success.

 

[bagdropper]

This is such a silly argument...an argument that absolutely doesn't need to occur over and over and over again.

 

[cmhawks99]

Well interestingly enough Homer mentioned I was on the boards a little earlier this year than normal and I'm about to the point I've gotten tired of them again.

I nearly didn't even come back to this thread but for what it's worth I really like Johnson123 and I've always had great respect from soybean so I Felt the need to express my feelings once again....

I thought Hayden Fry was awesome, you might even say I idolized him, my father thought he was awesome and my dad's dad who honestly didn't die much longer after his being hired thought he was awesome...

I was 11 years old and dancing in a sea of red on my way into Kinnick Stadium as a little boy in 1981 and all the cornhusker fans were laughing at me when I said daddy I think they're going to win...

But time changes you. I now realize only heroes should be worshiped outside of your Lord and Savior. And for guys like me....Over-inflating Hayden to things he actually never achieved, all in an effort to belittle the guy who replaced him, is shitty and disrespectful to both men

A guy that was instrumental in Haydens own success at Iowa and there's no way you could suggest he wasn't heavily involved in bringing KF back here. I'd also wager he is exceptionally pleased with what KF has accomplished.

But continually pooh-poohing KF and falsely suggesting things that as it turns out aren't accurate, well quite frankly it tarnishes both of those men's legacies and I don't like it.

And I will always, always speak out against that kind of deceit. No matter if it were my own flesh and blood.

 

[cmhawks99]

What if I said I don't believe you?

Lol...well that's sort of a silly question. Then I guess you don't believe me...

Hell I'm not even sure what you don't believe?! Interestingly enough I like you and I have respect for you but I don't care. I've never proven myself to be anything other than honest and trustworthy in here...the numbers I came up with you can check yourself, not having a vendetta against Hayden Fry?!

Well if you knew me, you knew my life, you knew my history, you'd realize how dumb it is, but that's on you, it honestly has nothing to do with me.

The cold hard reality is lots of people, maybe even most,
don't like their heroes screwed with but it is what it is...

I promise you there isn't another damn Iowa football fan in the country that would've dreamed Hayden scored under 14 Points way more times than Kirk not one. Hell I even knew it wasn't as Rosie as people pretended and I was even shocked!

 

[Johnsoda123]

Well interestingly enough Homer mentioned I was on the boards a little earlier this year than normal and I'm about to the point I've gotten tired of them again.

I nearly didn't even come back to this thread but for what it's worth I really like Johnson123 and I've always had great respect from soybean so I Felt the need to express my feelings once again....

I thought Hayden Fry was awesome, you might even say I idolized him, my father thought he was awesome and my dad's dad who honestly didn't die much longer after his being hired thought he was awesome...

I was 11 years old and dancing in a sea of red on my way into Kinnick Stadium as a little boy in 1981 and all the cornhusker fans were laughing at me when I said daddy I think they're going to win...

But time changes you. I now realize only heroes should be worshiped outside of your Lord and Savior. And for guys like me....Over-inflating Hayden to things he actually never achieved, all in an effort to belittle the guy who replaced him, is shitty and disrespectful to both men

A guy that was instrumental in Haydens own success at Iowa and there's no way you could suggest he wasn't heavily involved in bringing KF back here. I'd also wager he is exceptionally pleased with what KF has accomplished.

But continually pooh-poohing KF and falsely suggesting things that as it turns out aren't accurate, well quite frankly it tarnishes both of those men's legacies and I don't like it.

And I will always, always speak out against that kind of deceit. No matter if it were my own flesh and blood.

I was at that Iowa Nebraska game in 1981. I was a student and my Dad came from Missouri Valley to go to the game with me. A great day.

 

[hawkcub]

Hayden would not be great coaching when Ferentz coached. Don't forget there were many times when he got snarky with reporters when things weren't going well. Could you imagine how he would react now with the bigger sports media and social media added to it. This all being said Hayden was good for the era he coached in for Iowa and quite honestly KF is good in the era that he coached Iowa in.

 

[scotihawk]

Hayden would not be great coaching when Ferentz coached. Don't forget there were many times when he got snarky with reporters when things weren't going well. Could you imagine how he would react now with the bigger sports media and social media added to it. This all being said Hayden was good for the era he coached in for Iowa and quite honestly KF is good in the era that he coached Iowa in.

what a moron....have you looked at yardage scoring stats over the last 40 years??

 

[scotihawk]

Hayden would not be great coaching when Ferentz coached. Don't forget there were many times when he got snarky with reporters when things weren't going well. Could you imagine how he would react now with the bigger sports media and social media added to it. This all being said Hayden was good for the era he coached in for Iowa and quite honestly KF is good in the era that he coached Iowa in.

what a moron....have you looked at yardage scoring stats over the last 40 years??

that comment was meant for original poster ..sorry

 

[pocha444444]

I believe you are correct and awesome retort by the way. It's just hard to understand as many times as you put it in front of them they still fail to recognize his offense & teams werent what they remembered.

How did Hayden's offenses rank nationally vs Kirk's?

 

[cmhawks99]

that comment was meant for original poster ..sorry

And this is meant for you....points or lack thereof win games. Nothing more and nothing less. From what I have been led to believe by people smarter than me, iowas offensive efficiency numbers are normally decent not great but decent.

And by the way 14 points is still 14 points partner.....were not talking 28 to 31, were talking 2 TDs, shouldn't be too much to expect one of the greatest offensive minds in history to score more than two touchdowns, every single game right? That's what we get told in here all the time... are we switching gears again?

 

[cmhawks99]

How did Hayden's offenses rank nationally vs Kirk's?

Well interestingly enough I'm going to purely guess, a lot higher. Which again is why I picked such a low number and what is so remarkable about scoring under it. We've been told over and over KF couldn't carry Hayden's jock on the offensive end, yet in 49 games vs BIG competition we didn't score more than two TDs.

Wait until I drop it back at 10 then you'd really be shocked.

There really aren't any adjusted offensive numbers to make up for a number that low guys.

 

[cmhawks99]

I was at that Iowa Nebraska game in 1981. I was a student and my Dad came from Missouri Valley to go to the game with me. A great day.

Yeah an interesting sidenote on that game...Steve McWhirter who played linebacker from Nebraska got hurt in the first half, he was having a hell of a game, he played football and wrestled at my high school, Fairfield high and my dad helped train him in wrestling.

If I remember correctly he got second in state his senior year.

 

[pocha444444]

Well interestingly enough I'm going to purely guess, a lot higher. Which again is why I picked such a low number and what is so remarkable about scoring under it. We've been told over and over KF couldn't carry Hayden's jock on the offensive end, yet in 49 games vs BIG competition we didn't score more than two TDs.

Wait until I drop it back at 10 then you'd really be shocked.

There really aren't any adjusted offensive numbers to make up for a number that low guys.

I don't really understand what you are saying. You guess that Hayden's offenses ranked higher nationally? Then what exactly is your point? Obviously the game is much different today than it was during Hayden's era.
I honestly don't know how Hayden's offense ranked nationally either. I'm guessing, like you, that they ranked higher than Ferentz's. There isn't any data out there to prove that though from what I've seen.

 

[Johnsoda123]

Yeah an interesting sidenote on that game...Steve McWhirter who played linebacker from Nebraska got hurt in the first half, he was having a hell of a game, he played football and wrestled at my high school, Fairfield high and my dad helped train him in wrestling.

If I remember correctly he got second in state his senior year.

It was an interesting year. The next week ISU beat Iowa. Then Iowa beat UCLA and Michigan. My gf/future wife and I went to the Rose Bowl that year. It is why Fry has a special place in my heart.

 

[scotihawk]

that comment was meant for original poster ..sorry

And this is meant for you....points or lack thereof win games. Nothing more and nothing less. From what I have been led to believe by people smarter than me, iowas offensive efficiency numbers are normally decent not great but decent.

And by the way 14 points is still 14 points partner.....were not talking 28 to 31, were talking 2 TDs, shouldn't be too much to expect one of the greatest offensive minds in history to score more than two touchdowns, every single game right? That's what we get told in here all the time... are we switching gears again?

hey Partner....I guess that Alex Hornibrook is a better qb than Bart Starr because he throws for more yards on average during his career...again...what a moron..

 

[cmhawks99]

hey Partner....I guess that Alex Hornibrook is a better qb than Bart Starr because he throws for more yards on average during his career...again...what a moron..

Absolutely ridiculous attempt to discredit something, with a comparison to 2 things that are completely & irrevocably mutually exclusive, nice try.

Actually scratch that, not even close to a nice try it's ridiculous and nobody's buying it.

Hell do the analytical break down, that's not my thing once again we're talking about 14 points... two touchdowns, we're not talking about passing yards or passing efficiency or offensive efficiency, we're talking about Hayden Fry is brilliant and I don't give a shit what you say, if you couldn't score 2 TDs in a game in 1985 that's not much different than not being able to do it in 2015 and I don't care how you slice it "partner"...

Carry on!

The next thing you say better be a statistical analysis of why there is a significant difference, otherwise you're doing nothing other than I've already done.

Yes I get it scoring is up over the last 20 years but I'll say it one more time we're talking about two touchdowns or less in 49 games in 1985 not 1955 that's significant!

 

[cmhawks99]

It was an interesting year. The next week ISU beat Iowa. Then Iowa beat UCLA and Michigan. My gf/future wife and I went to the Rose Bowl that year. It is why Fry has a special place in my heart.

As well he should and to tell you the Truth and I guess you'll have to take my word for it, if I had never stumbled onto these message boards and saw people comparing KF in a negative light to Hayden Fry, you would've never heard a word out of me. He deserves to be revered, not worshipped but certainly held in high light, but I do not like misinformation surely you can tell that about me.

It's OK to lift Hayden up without going boy..."old Hayden wouldn't of done it like Kirk just did" or " man Hayden Fry sure scored a hell of a lot more points than Kirk did"...

And I know you see it happen and to make matters worse then they pretend like they didn't do it....

They do and I've seen 20 to 30 other guys point it out....

 

[pocha444444]

As well he should and to tell you the Truth and I guess you'll have to take my word for it, if I had never stumbled onto these message boards and saw people comparing KF in a negative light to Hayden Fry, you would've never heard a word out of me. He deserves to be revered, not worshipped but certainly held in high light, but I do not like misinformation surely you can tell that about me.

It's OK to lift Hayden up without going boy..."old Hayden wouldn't of done it like Kirk just did" or " man Hayden Fry sure scored a hell of a lot more points than Kirk did"...

And I know you see it happen and to make matters worse then they pretend like they didn't do it....

They do and I've seen 20 to 30 other guys point it out....

Just did a quick count for Kirk and came up with 51 time of 14 points or less.

 

[cmhawks99]

I don't really understand what you are saying. You guess that Hayden's offenses ranked higher nationally? Then what exactly is your point? Obviously the game is much different today than it was during Hayden's era.
I honestly don't know how Hayden's offense ranked nationally either. I'm guessing, like you, that they ranked higher than Ferentz's. There isn't any data out there to prove that though from what I've seen.

Look I'm not jacking with you I know you're not always thrilled with what I say but we're talking 14 points that's not very many....

 

[Pepperman]

Just did a quick count for Kirk and came up with 51 time of 14 points or less.

Uh oh...

 

[cmhawks99]

Just did a quick count for Kirk and came up with 51 time of 14 points or less.

Not verse the Big Ten you didn't...

 

[cmhawks99]

Uh oh...

Go Count it again, though I will tell you it is funny to me that people have pretended like it's insignificant yet here we are

 

[DougFHawkeye]

Uh oh...

here we go

 

[Pepperman]

here we go

I Wish Homer would post “please stop attaching yourself to me”...

 

[pocha444444]

Not verse the Big Ten you didn't...

Yeah my bad, subtract 13 non-conference 14 point or less performances from that number for Kirk. You sure know how to cherry pick your stats! I'll have to see their average points scored per game when I have time.

 

[DougFHawkeye]

Yeah my bad, subtract 13 non-conference 14 point or less performances from that number for Kirk. You sure know how to cherry pick your stats! I'll have to see their average points scored per game when I have time.

glutton for punishment

 

[cmhawks99]

Just did a quick count for Kirk and came up with 51 time of 14 points or less.

Here is the link...it is shockingly hard for my eyes to follow. I even printed it out and did it and I think for some reason or another I forgot to count the wins. I don't know if I did it for Kirk and Hayden both or not, but it is more than I initially thought but it's not 51 I think it's 37-ish I'll count it one more time...

http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/Iowa.htm

Incidentally the point still remains and you counting it and bringing the miscount to my attention only solidifies the fact it's shocking how many games Hayden had.... because you like me are struggling to believe it!!