Stieber
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On what basis does Stieber move ahead of Pat Smith?
Smith was 19 when he won his first title.
Stieber was 21 when he won his first title.
Both had controversial wins in the big tournament, but I can't help thinking that Stieber got two gifts.
Smith had 85 bonus wins of his 122 wins.
Stieber had a lot more pins for sure, I'm trying to find that stat.
Smith didn't lose a match after his freshman year, on a par with the great Lee Kemp.
Stieber got ridden like a rented mule vs a freshman in a dual ( not sure if he was not feeling well, however) last year.
Just asking, on what basis do you make this ascertation?
Smith was 19 when he won his first title.
Stieber was 21 when he won his first title.
Both had controversial wins in the big tournament, but I can't help thinking that Stieber got two gifts.
Smith had 85 bonus wins of his 122 wins.
Stieber had a lot more pins for sure, I'm trying to find that stat.
Smith didn't lose a match after his freshman year, on a par with the great Lee Kemp.
Stieber got ridden like a rented mule vs a freshman in a dual ( not sure if he was not feeling well, however) last year.
Just asking, on what basis do you make this ascertation?
If your list of best wrestlers of all time consists of only 4-time champs, then I would agree. Stieber's third in the four-man group. I certainly believe Stieber's style, energy and tendency to dominate give him the edge in my view.
If you're allowing others in on the list, then Cael and Dake are at or near the top, but I don't think Logan or Pat belong in the top 5. Maybe the top 10.
Other's before Stieber and Pat:
Gable, of course. Can still make an argument for #1, but I won't do that here.
Hodge (you know, the guy the trophy's named after)
Uetake
Kemp
McIlravey
Koll
Frankly, I think John Smith was a better college wrestler than his brother, but his stats don't support the argument.
He actually lost 1 other and absolutely could have lost to Ramos also. 4 Titles with an * by 2 of them.
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According to tOSU website, Stieber was 33-2 as a freshman, 27-0 as a soph, 30-1 as a junior, and 29-0 as a senior. I actually understated his bonus point wins, he had 96. That's 80.1%.
In my opinion, he SHOULD have lost to Ramos. I have absolutely no doubt about it. And he probably should have lost to Oliver, though that one is a bit less clear to me.
But if we're comparing Stieber to Smith (which is what I thought we were doing), Smith's leg and ankle grasp on Tom Ryan in '91 without being dinged for stalling is one of the worst non-calls I've ever seen in a championship match. So he's got at least one * of his own in my view.
I'm still convinced Stieber > Smith.
Stieber only lost 3 times during the 4 seasons that he won his titles. During his RS FR year he lost to Chris Dardanes and Jordan Oliver during the regular season and of course to Retherford during his RS JR year. No other blemishes on his record.
But he did has 3 losses as a True Freshman while wrestling attached at the CKLV invite, he made the semis and then i believe lost 3 in a row wrestling with a broken hand to place 6th. He was then granted a medical redshirt year instead of just taking a normal redshirt because he had already competed attached. There is often a debate on themat forums on whether Stiebers official record should have 6 losses or 3.
But he did has 3 losses as a True Freshman while wrestling attached at the CKLV invite, he made the semis and then i believe lost 3 in a row wrestling with a broken hand to place 6th. He was then granted a medical redshirt year instead of just taking a normal redshirt because he had already competed attached. There is often a debate on themat forums on whether Stiebers official record should have 6 losses or 3.
Here's another measure:
In his 20 NCAA tournament matches, Smith got 2 falls, 4 tech falls, 6 majors and 8 regular decisions. 16 bonus points.
In his 20 NCAA tournament matches, Stieber got 7 falls, 5 tech falls, 2 majors and 6 regular decisions. 23.5 bonus points.
NCAA titles are the main goal in my mind. You can put an asterisk next to his name in your mind, I don't. There is a reason so few accomplish it. You need talent, some luck, avoid injuries and not let the lights get to you. You see superior wrestlers lose every year, most notably Dan Gable. Later when the lights weren't so bright Gable crushed Owings. Some people shine in the limelight.
Due to my age, I never got to watch Pat Smith so I guess it's a proximity thing. He was 2-1 against Oliver (one of the best two timers in my mind) and undefeated against Ramos (one of my favorite wrestlers).
Due to my age, I never got to watch Pat Smith so I guess it's a proximity thing. He was 2-1 against Oliver (one of the best two timers in my mind) and undefeated against Ramos (one of my favorite wrestlers).
I have seen every match in the NCAA's for both Stieber and Smith. I don't think it is even close between the two. Stieber is/was better. To me, Smith was one of the weakest 2-4 time champs ever. When he wrestled, there were never any elite wrestlers in his weight class so he did not have to beat people like Taylor, Dake, Bannachs, Steiners etc. I never understood how he kept winning all his matches. He was similar to Perry from OSU, he just found a way to hang on and win. There have been many wrestlers who were better than Smith, but did not have the luck to win 4 times. Many of them wrestled for Iowa.
I say it is level.
The sport is different. I think the guys who wrestled before 1992 were just tougher men.
all the comparisons of stats is very tough because of the level of comp at each class. If the depth in your class is not there, of course you have more bonus wins. Dake and Logan wrestled a number of ranked/very good wrestlers. Pat had tough comp early but I feel it tailed off towards the end. I don't think Cael had more than 2 or 3 tough matches a year.
The only way to know is to list every match and see who they each wrestled and compare the quality. Personally I don't have the time but I would like to see it.
My question, can someone ask Logan?, is who is the toughest competitor he has faced? In his own opinion....I am wondering if it it Tony. They had some pretty good battles, color me curious.
Smith won it as a true freshman that is huge plus as another poster said went without a loss his last three seasons. Smith higher IMO
I grow tired of these asterisks(*) behind a champs name. Clearly, Logan has dominated his way through college. People could pick on a 1pt victory all day/year long and then place a * for any college wrestler. Doesn't matter it's whats on the books that really matters.
Saying all that, I'm a big fan of level of competition for a barometer. It's the only reason I don't put Cael number 1. It's also the reason I place Dake #1 for moving up to take on other champs. Logan 3rd and then Smith for 4 timers.
Saying all that, I'm a big fan of level of competition for a barometer. It's the only reason I don't put Cael number 1. It's also the reason I place Dake #1 for moving up to take on other champs. Logan 3rd and then Smith for 4 timers.
3rd most impressive of the most elite group of college wrestlers in my book.
The resumes of the 4 he beat in the finals might be the best. Jordan Oliver, Tony Ramos, Devin Carter, Mitchell Port. BEAST
That said, i thought Oliver got screwed. Not Logan Stiebers fault though
The resumes of the 4 he beat in the finals might be the best. Jordan Oliver, Tony Ramos, Devin Carter, Mitchell Port. BEAST
That said, i thought Oliver got screwed. Not Logan Stiebers fault though
Wtf are you all talking about, should have only had two titles? I get there's a possible argument in the JO match, but how can you claim he got given a second? I can only assume you're talking about the Ramos final in which Ramos wasn't awarded 2 back points (which he should have been) but still lost by 3? Nothing would have changed, Ramos would have still lost, because he was simply not the same caliber of wrestler. I can't believe some of you are so dense that you're still trying to claim that.
As for a top wrestlers list, that's hard to say. If we're saying overall career I'd say Stieber would be in the 4-5 range (1. Cael 2. Dake 3.Euteka 4/5. Smith/Stieber). If we're going on peak talent level that conversation becomes a lot more open.
As for a top wrestlers list, that's hard to say. If we're saying overall career I'd say Stieber would be in the 4-5 range (1. Cael 2. Dake 3.Euteka 4/5. Smith/Stieber). If we're going on peak talent level that conversation becomes a lot more open.
AND....2 years younger- That has to count for something.
and chew on this....Lee Kemp, Randy Lewis, & many others also had COMPLETED their college eligibility at the same age that Logan Stieber was beginning his.
This post was edited on 4/2 11:07 AM by sweatybetty
and chew on this....Lee Kemp, Randy Lewis, & many others also had COMPLETED their college eligibility at the same age that Logan Stieber was beginning his.
This post was edited on 4/2 11:07 AM by sweatybetty
You guys are making Iowa fans look bad right now. Sometimes you have to give credit where credit is due. Why would you put a * by his title over Ramos? Because you think he should be been awarded back points on the questionable cradle? Get over it. Ramos lost to him 3 or 4 times in a row. Even if he gets that call Stieber finds a way to win the match. Fact of the matter, Logan Stieber is better than any Iowa wrestler, ever. It can't and shouldn't even be argued, although it is obviously a tough pill for a few of you to swallow.
Hey, I agree that Logan Stieber is a GREAT wrestler- no doubt about it.
If you can't agree that he's had some major advantages over, say a Pat Smith or a Lee Kemp or even a Randy Lewis in the great scheme of things, well, I guess that's your point of view.
Is he better than TJ? ONE OT loss in 3 years. One loss in JUCO-don't know the situation.
Is he better than Marcus Levesseur? Says in his Wiki that Marcus HEADED INTO COLLEGE with a 141 match win streak, then won another 155 without a loss. So he went 296-0.
But, Logan Stieber IS a great wrestler. Hard for me to say he's the third best 4-timer. But, he's very very good.
This post was edited on 3/31 11:06 AM by sweatybetty
If you can't agree that he's had some major advantages over, say a Pat Smith or a Lee Kemp or even a Randy Lewis in the great scheme of things, well, I guess that's your point of view.
Is he better than TJ? ONE OT loss in 3 years. One loss in JUCO-don't know the situation.
Is he better than Marcus Levesseur? Says in his Wiki that Marcus HEADED INTO COLLEGE with a 141 match win streak, then won another 155 without a loss. So he went 296-0.
But, Logan Stieber IS a great wrestler. Hard for me to say he's the third best 4-timer. But, he's very very good.
This post was edited on 3/31 11:06 AM by sweatybetty
Agreed 100%. Stieber is awesome. Better than Smith IMO. BUT, he got a gift against Oliver, plain and simple.
I feel confident putting an * to something that I saw with my own two eyes. My eyes told me then and tell me now that Oliver took Steiber down to win the National Title.
Record books say otherwise, doesn't change my mind however. And I absolutely love the kid. Seems like a great guy, and obviously hell on wheels on a wrestling mat.
Those two situations are light years different. Olivers hands came off the mat as soon as Stiebers left hand went far enough around Olivers waist to gain control.... Stieber was on his butt with Oliver having both ankles. That is a takedown on every mat in every gym in this country. Stieber should have and actually did lose to every fan that knows what they are talking about.
For those of you doubting Smith's skill....I have him on tape pretty much doing whatever he wanted to Terry Steiner, who was a heckuva champ in his own right. Granted- Steiner was up a weight, but it was a dual and if Smith was cutting any, he would have been somewhat affected. It was, on a smaller scale, sort of Zalesky/Carr-esque.
Also, the fact that no one had ever dared to win four previous has to count for something
Also, the fact that no one had ever dared to win four previous has to count for something
Except for the fact that there were four 3-time champions who were not allowed to wrestle as freshmen, so they didn't even get the chance.Originally posted by sweatybetty:
For those of you doubting Smith's skill....I have him on tape pretty much doing whatever he wanted to Terry Steiner, who was a heckuva champ in his own right. Granted- Steiner was up a weight, but it was a dual and if Smith was cutting any, he would have been somewhat affected. It was, on a smaller scale, sort of Zalesky/Carr-esque.
Also, the fact that no one had ever dared to win four previous has to count for something
I don't know that anyone, actually, is doubting Smith's skills. He was a superb wrestler. But, on a comparison basis, I think there are several 3-timers who were better.
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