If that knee is healthy he could finish as high as 4 IMO.
Stoll #7 on Flo's big boy list.
- Thread starter edquinn06
- Start date
1-JR-Kyle Snyder-Ohio State
2-SR-Ty Walz-Virginia Tech
3-SR-Connor Medbery-Wisconsin
4-JR-Amar Dhesi-Oregon State
5-SR-Michael Kroells-Minnesota
6-SR-Denzel Dejournette-App State
7-SO-Sam Stoll-Iowa
8-SR-Ross Larson-Oklahoma
9-JR-Brooks Black-Illinois
10-JR-Nathan Butler-Stanford
11-SO-Tanner Hall-Arizona State
12-SR-Collin Jensen-Nebraska
Looking at FLO's top 12, Snyder is the only guy that I don't see Stoll beating. Granted I would favor Walz and Medberry, but they aren't that far ahead of a fully healthy Stoll. Dhesi has an extremely contrasting style, but 285 is the Folkstyle weight class where Greco skills can quite easily negate Freestyle skills.
With the right draw and the inevitable upsets that happen in the "Big Boy Class", I could see Stoll sliding into the match on Saturday night. Still, being unbiased I would expect him somewhere in the 2-7 range, with 4th being a very likely result!
2-SR-Ty Walz-Virginia Tech
3-SR-Connor Medbery-Wisconsin
4-JR-Amar Dhesi-Oregon State
5-SR-Michael Kroells-Minnesota
6-SR-Denzel Dejournette-App State
7-SO-Sam Stoll-Iowa
8-SR-Ross Larson-Oklahoma
9-JR-Brooks Black-Illinois
10-JR-Nathan Butler-Stanford
11-SO-Tanner Hall-Arizona State
12-SR-Collin Jensen-Nebraska
Looking at FLO's top 12, Snyder is the only guy that I don't see Stoll beating. Granted I would favor Walz and Medberry, but they aren't that far ahead of a fully healthy Stoll. Dhesi has an extremely contrasting style, but 285 is the Folkstyle weight class where Greco skills can quite easily negate Freestyle skills.
With the right draw and the inevitable upsets that happen in the "Big Boy Class", I could see Stoll sliding into the match on Saturday night. Still, being unbiased I would expect him somewhere in the 2-7 range, with 4th being a very likely result!
That is the $1,000,000.00 question! Some guys are freaks of nature and can come back looking like they have been training the whole time. Some never come back all the way. The guy seems to have a ton of heart, so I would expect him to be raring and ready to go around Midlands!
0-2 at NCAA's is gonna hurt your ranking regardless of injury. Add in losses to Black and Jensen. He is another guy that is probably better than both ranked ahead of him, but his body of work doesn't warrant the ranking quite yet.
Everyone knows he wrestled on a torn up knee in those matches. I don't think those matches have much, if any, effect on his ranking as he's ranked ahead of both--even though both won multiple matches at the NCAA tourney. Furthermore, Dejournette didn't place at the NCAAs, either. Heck, he lost to Black at the NCAAs.
I have never had a knee repaired but for those that have. Does it effect your ability to push, handfight, sprawl, go behind? Serious question. That is essentially Sam's game plan to victory. It's not like he is cuttingb and juking or constantly changing levels and shooting. I would imagine he will be back to form once he gets the lungs back up and a little mat time.
The area I would feel it would impact him the most is bottom, again no history of knee repair so correct me if I am wrong. I still don't feel that is much to worry about cuz most aren't spending the time to ride anyway. 4-7 for him IMO.
The area I would feel it would impact him the most is bottom, again no history of knee repair so correct me if I am wrong. I still don't feel that is much to worry about cuz most aren't spending the time to ride anyway. 4-7 for him IMO.
That just isn't how preseason rankings work. Injuries don't give you a free pass. Even though it was a medical forfeit, Dejournette had a win over Stoll at NCAA's and he finished the season 32-4. I absolutely believe he is better than both him and Kroells, but Kroells just came off his 2nd AA finish as well. Rankings are supposed to be solely based off the numbers, with heavy weighting on NCAA Tourney results. Subjectivity(I am confident I used the word correctly this time
) is supposed to be minimized, if not completely removed. Although, I agree that a 100% healthy Stoll is better than both, he wasn't 100% healthy and his ranking should be affected by that.
I have not but my understanding is that the lateral movement is affected the most because that puts the most strain on the knee and you are least flexible that way. Most heavys are gonna be more railroad track straight on so it shouldn't affect him as much. Maybe the go behind especially if a guy has a hold of his leg.
Edit: maybe the bigger factor is the mental side and him being apprehensive or scared to try to do something or get into a position where he could reinjure his knee. I know I went through this with my shoulder.
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That just isn't how preseason rankings work. Injuries don't give you a free pass. Even though it was a medical forfeit, Dejournette had a win over Stoll at NCAA's and he finished the season 32-4. I absolutely believe he is better than both him and Kroells, but Kroells just came off his 2nd AA finish as well. Rankings are supposed to be solely based off the numbers, with heavy weighting on NCAA Tourney results. Subjectivity(I am confident I used the word correctly this time
Except Pyles is on record that while the NCAAs matter, he tries to look at the whole resume and not assign to much weight to any match based on time of year it happens. That's why a guy like Joey Dance, who hasn't been an AA since his freshman year, is ranked number three in the nation. You are correct that most rankings go heavily off the previous year's NCAAs, but Pyles isn't most rankers.
What was his specific injury again? Was it a ligament tear? If so, was it multiple? ACL is usually the most common injury and can be affected by the largest range of motion. It is located in the center of the knee and is responsible for rotation and forward motion. Being a big guy, I would think that would be the hardest one to come back from and could linger for some time. The PCL, MCL and LCL would pose their own set of problems, but I wouldn't see them being nearly as difficult.
I agree with that and that is also why DeJournette is ranked so high. He was 31-2 during the regular season only losing to Gwiz and Marsden while also beating Kroells. Dance I think is more obvious as he was 29-1 during the regular season having beaten the National Champ and his only loss was to Tomasello. Plus, he benefits from the weight class clearing out with Megaludis and Terao graduating and Tomasello moving up in weight.
So you're saying that DeJournette wrestled a cupcake schedule and lost to the only good guys he wrestled with the exception of Kroells? Record doesn't mean anything to me. We do know that before Stoll tore his ACL he beat the mighty Mike Kroells 7-3
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That just isn't how preseason rankings work. Injuries don't give you a free pass. Even though it was a medical forfeit, Dejournette had a win over Stoll at NCAA's and he finished the season 32-4. I absolutely believe he is better than both him and Kroells, but Kroells just came off his 2nd AA finish as well. Rankings are supposed to be solely based off the numbers, with heavy weighting on NCAA Tourney results. Subjectivity(I am confident I used the word correctly this time
Preseason rankings actually work however the ranker wants them to work. ;-)
No one with brain power would put any stock in the Dejournette win over Stoll. They might, on the other hand, look at the bodies of work of the wrestlers, consider than a previous injury might hamper one's ability to perform in the future, add in any personal hunches, etc., and make a prediction. I'm OK with all of that, and as I said the other day I like it that some people don't simply slot wrestlers based on last year's finish and make it their ranking.
I think it was a mixture of 32-4 vs 22-6 and the injury losses. I am not arguing that Stoll isn't better. I have already said I believe he is. I was arguing why I believe the rankings are fair. As far as rankings go, I don't think Stoll deserves a free pass for the end of the year results due to the injury. If he wouldn't have wrestled, he would be ranked higher. However, he took 4 losses because he chose to wrestle injured, and those can't be fully ignored.
I agree. Mental is the bigger part. You subconsciously favor it for fear of reinjuring. Until you injure something else and can subconsciously worry about that instead.
I would say as high as 2 IMHO. We have a great heavy coach. Stoll is a gamer.
This is what I don't agree with. He competed with a significant injury and thus he's "penalized" for it? Not competing would have been better? I can't buy that at all.
I see pre-season rankings as great for discussion but meaningless once the season gets underway. Not sure why anyone would get butt hurt reading the opinions of those taking the time to compile their best guesses, however homerfied that may be.
Stoll against Jensen in the Dual=6-2 win
Stoll limping out on one leg against Jensen at B1G=loses by maj 14-5
Stoll against Black in dual=Win 2-0 (Had never lost to Black)
Stoll limping out on one leg at B1G=loses 3-0
Plus, he beat Krolls 7-3 in the dual.
Which matches do you think are more legit?
Tervel goes out in the Olympics with a bad back and tries to wrestle and it's brave. Stoll goes out out and tries to gain some kind of points for his team...he shouldn't have done it. Not that beginning of the year rankings matter much but I guess its a respect thing.
They never should have let Stoll go back out to wrestle Gwiz after the initial injury let alone wrestle at bugs. You could tell Sam was really hurting, and he probably injured his knee even worse going back out immediately after it happened. Stoll is a warrior, but the coaches gotta step in sometime and think about the future, especially when it comes to a freshmen
7 is a good place to start, until we can see what the effects from the injury are.
I 100% agree with you if we were talking about who we THINK is better. When discussing rankings, most recent results are very important. When ranking, you can't simply take them at their best and completely ignore the worst, regardless of injury. I think injury was considered and that is why he isn't further down the list having gone 0-2 at NCAA's and losing the last 4 matches he wrestled. A lot of this is why the Coaches Rankings don't come out until later in the season. It gives them a chance to see enough of a body of work during the season to be as accurate as possible.
I think that's exactly what we are doing--having a discussion. This is demonstrated by the fact that I haven't called MSU an a-hole...yet.
I appreciate and applaud your civility. Obviously, no stance is set in stone and I could see Stoll higher. I was just trying to explain why I thought the current seeding was justifiable. I actually enjoy rankings as they stimulate wrestling conversation.
To be clear, I think Stoll is the 5th best guy at the weight and is barely behind Dhesi.
Watching Stoll last year I was very impressed with his skills. He was surprisingly good on the mat, and tremendous on his feet. That said, any ranking is a wild guess, because without full recovery he can't score even qualify for nationals. With full recovery he could be in the finals.
He's the one I am watching, because I believe in 2017 as Stoll goes, so go the Hawkeyes.
He's the one I am watching, because I believe in 2017 as Stoll goes, so go the Hawkeyes.
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Lots of questions to be answered. Can't wait for the season to start. I hope to see a healthy Stoll and Nevills.
You've got to love the optimism by some but Stoll isn't beating Walz. If he's much improved he may be able to take out Medberry. 4th would be great.
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To put this in perspective, C P is the same guy that ranked Gulibon #1 last year. Stoll #7 sounds about right, if healthy he can move up quickly into top 5.
I say Stoll's best odds of being able to beat anyone is making guys wrestling his strength. Tie up, body locks, slide by arm drags, throws, trips, pushing guys off the mat. NOT going toe to toe allowing opponents who's strengths are singles legs shots to dictate the match. I think his style best fits his longevity. Now this is a 2014 Greco video but he toys with Denzel upper body ==>
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Loved watching that match (just after Pfarr/Burak), Stoll countered the crap out of him
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