Talent disparity

[jimbob22]

It was dramatic last year v. Oklahoma, Creighton, Clowns. I kind of quit paying attention after that. Last night v Clowns it was more of same.

Would any of Iowa's players start for the Clowns? Sixth man? Seventh man?

Who is the big money man directing all of that talent to the Clowns? Seems to be a bit of a stretch to think that TJ's personality is the reason.

And for the record, when does Fran's contract expire and what is the buyout?

 

[Thunderlips71]

I believe Fairy Farta gave Fran a lifetime contract

 

[AmericaNeedsMe]

The Murrays significantly extended Fran's career here. Which just goes to show you -- it's better to be lucky than good.

 

[AmericaNeedsMe]

Would any of Iowa's players start for the Clowns? Sixth man? Seventh man?

Dix and Freeman would likely earn minutes at most power conference programs. Sandfort might not at some of the more loaded programs. He has severe athletic limitations.

The rest? Nah. I love Harding's heart but he doesn't belong at this level. Thelwell is not as physically limited as Harding but he's a mid major talent too.

When you consider talent, you really do have to recognize Fran's exceptional offensive mind. Schematically, he's in the top 5% of coaches.

 

[iowamike21]

Well, many of you folks are arguing both sides. Iowa has no talent, yet Iowa lost by 2 @ #14 Michigan, and last night outplayed #3, super-talented ISU for 37.5 minutes, leading by 13 at one point, leading by 4-8 until ISU tied the game for the first time all night with about 3 minutes to play.

So was it great coaching that allowed the untalented Hawkeyes to control the #3 team in MAGA land last night, or is Iowa more talented than it's being given credit for? One or the other must be true--maybe both--based on that game last night. If Freeman makes those two FTs, the whole end of the game may have played out differently. Maybe ISU would have had to foul and Iowa could have put the game away at the line, where they made 11 straight before Freeman's misses. Instead, it was Iowa who fell behind and had to foul, accounting for the unrepresentative final score.

If ISU had come in and blown the Hawkeyes away by 20 or 30 points, maybe you'd have a case. But that's not quite what happened, is it . . .

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Harding is most definitely a d1 guard. He would excel in a program that expected penetration with kickouts.
His defense is ok, especially on a team that preaches team defense. Brock's shortcomings are more of a highlight on frans defensive approach to the game, or lack of one.

 

[dekhawk]

Denny Albaugh $$$$$$ your isu bball buyer.

 

[ISUBryce]

Denny Albaugh $$$$$$ your isu bball buyer.

How much did he contribute? What high dollar guys are there on Iowa State’s roster?

 

[Speedway1]

Denny Albaugh $$$$$$ your isu bball buyer.

Along with Vetenarys that are ISU grads. Big bucks their also.

 

[AmericaNeedsMe]

Harding is most definitely a d1 guard. He would excel in a program that expected penetration with kickouts.
His defense is ok, especially on a team that preaches team defense. Brock's shortcomings are more of a highlight on frans defensive approach to the game, or lack of one.

You can look at the schools who (seriously) recruited him and know that that is not true.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

You can look at the schools who (seriously) recruited him and know that that is not true.

Your right. No one has ever exceeded expectations. Solid argument there. No Illinois player of the year ever panned out in college.

 

[iowamike21]

You can look at the schools who (seriously) recruited him and know that that is not true.

Under-recruited players succeed often, and 5-stars sometimes fail. Anyone on this board should be well aware of that reality.

One quick example of a vast number available: Nobody wanted the Murray brothers. People on this board ripped Fran for giving them scholarships. Posters said Fran should be fired for recruiting them just because they were legacies. People said they saw the Murrays play in high school and they were not even close to being D-1 talents. Fran signed them anyway, and they did OK, and they're still doing OK in that thing called the NBA. LOL

Harding and Thelwell are outstanding PGs. Thelwell is experienced, and Harding will continue to improve. He's only a sophomore. He has natural instincts that few players have. Let's see what kind of career Harding has and let's revisit this issue. I have a feeling the critical posts are not going to age well.

 

[AmericaNeedsMe]

Under-recruited players succeed often, and 5-stars sometimes fail. Anyone on this board should be well aware of that reality.

One quick example of a vast number available: Nobody wanted the Murray brothers. People on this board ripped Fran for giving them scholarships. Posters said Fran should be fired for recruiting them just because they were legacies. People said they saw the Murrays play in high school and they were not even close to being D-1 talents. Fran signed them anyway, and they did OK, and they're still doing OK in that thing called the NBA. LOL

Harding and Thelwell are outstanding PGs. Thelwell is experienced, and Harding will continue to improve. He's only a sophomore. He has natural instincts that few players have. Let's see what kind of career Harding has and let's revisit this issue. I have a feeling the critical posts are not going to age well.

Yes, there are rare exceptions in some general data sets. This is neither remarkable nor material to Harding's case.

If you think Harding compares to the Murrays in any way, you have no idea what you are talking about about. The Murrays had no physical/athletic limitations. They were built like NBA players. Not the case with Harding. Should be obvious.

Thelwell was so "outstanding" that he was recruited by Moorhead State and played there for 75% of his career. He doesn't have the limitations that Harding does but there's a reason he was not recruited by power conference teams (until Fran came along).

 

[IChawkeye45]

Your right. No one has ever exceeded expectations. Solid argument there. No Illinois player of the year ever panned out in college.

Well he hasn’t done anything at Iowa yet either.

 

[Bulldogs1974]

Yes, there are rare exceptions in some general data sets. This is neither remarkable nor material to Harding's case.

If you think Harding compares to the Murrays in any way, you have no idea what you are talking about about. The Murrays had no physical/athletic limitations. They were built like NBA players. Not the case with Harding. Should be obvious.

Thelwell was so "outstanding" that he was recruited by Moorhead State and played there for 75% of his career. He doesn't have the limitations that Harding does but there's a reason he was not recruited by power conference teams (until Fran came along).

So your making the case for rankings by using a guy that went to morehead state and is now playing power 5.

 

[Ronman]

Personally, I believe the talent level is way down in the B1G this year, which may work in Iowa's favor. Ohio State were just eviscerated this afternoon by Auburn and Purdue lost again, this time to Texas A&M. We'll see how Illinois fares against Tennessee today, but it won't surprise me if that's another loss. Overall, it seems as though if we continue to make strides on defense (which has been better this season) and can find someone that will take rebounding as their sacred duty, we might just finish higher than predicted (again)!

 

[Ladell-hawk]

It was dramatic last year v. Oklahoma, Creighton, Clowns. I kind of quit paying attention after that. Last night v Clowns it was more of same.

Would any of Iowa's players start for the Clowns? Sixth man? Seventh man?

Who is the big money man directing all of that talent to the Clowns? Seems to be a bit of a stretch to think that TJ's personality is the reason.

And for the record, when does Fran's contract expire and what is the buyout?

Well, if there was such a talent discrepancy how did we have the lead for 37 minutes ? I think our players have more talent than you give them credit for. But yes, isu has more talent but the difference isn’t as much as you think.

 

[TheGuy9]

Yes, there are rare exceptions in some general data sets. This is neither remarkable nor material to Harding's case.

If you think Harding compares to the Murrays in any way, you have no idea what you are talking about about. The Murrays had no physical/athletic limitations. They were built like NBA players. Not the case with Harding. Should be obvious.

Thelwell was so "outstanding" that he was recruited by Moorhead State and played there for 75% of his career. He doesn't have the limitations that Harding does but there's a reason he was not recruited by power conference teams (until Fran came along).

Don't see where a comparison to the Murrays and Harding was made. Oh, and your statement about the Murrays having no physical/athletic limitations is a joke. Kris Murray is getting 12 minutes a game on a really bad team and Keegan has rarely displayed the ability to put the ball on the floor and make a play for himself. Try to not over state your arguments as they make what might have been a realistic statement appear to be nothing more than hyperbole. Also, tell me why Step Curry wasn't recruited buy a power conference. Was he to small, to slow, or what.

 

[Hawk68]

Harding is most definitely a d1 guard. He would excel in a program that expected penetration with kickouts.
His defense is ok, especially on a team that preaches team defense. Brock's shortcomings are more of a highlight on frans defensive approach to the game, or lack of one.

Sorry, but he is not at the BIG level. The kid has a ton of heart and is a superb ball handler, but his D is lacking and he is just not quick enough.

 

[Grumpy Old Hawk]

It was dramatic last year v. Oklahoma, Creighton, Clowns. I kind of quit paying attention after that. Last night v Clowns it was more of same.

Would any of Iowa's players start for the Clowns? Sixth man? Seventh man?

Who is the big money man directing all of that talent to the Clowns? Seems to be a bit of a stretch to think that TJ's personality is the reason.

And for the record, when does Fran's contract expire and what is the buyout?

I doubt wearing a shirt 3 sizes too small helps him either.

 

[Hans81]

Dix and Freeman would likely earn minutes at most power conference programs. Sandfort might not at some of the more loaded programs. He has severe athletic limitations.

The rest? Nah. I love Harding's heart but he doesn't belong at this level. Thelwell is not as physically limited as Harding but he's a mid major talent too.

When you consider talent, you really do have to recognize Fran's exceptional offensive mind. Schematically, he's in the top 5% of coaches.

Eventually, a healthy Cooper Koch would also play on a lot of high-level D1 teams.

 

[Hans81]

How much did he contribute? What high dollar guys are there on Iowa State’s roster?

I don’t know…you tell us clown fan.

 

[Hans81]

Under-recruited players succeed often, and 5-stars sometimes fail. Anyone on this board should be well aware of that reality.

One quick example of a vast number available: Nobody wanted the Murray brothers. People on this board ripped Fran for giving them scholarships. Posters said Fran should be fired for recruiting them just because they were legacies. People said they saw the Murrays play in high school and they were not even close to being D-1 talents. Fran signed them anyway, and they did OK, and they're still doing OK in that thing called the NBA. LOL

Harding and Thelwell are outstanding PGs. Thelwell is experienced, and Harding will continue to improve. He's only a sophomore. He has natural instincts that few players have. Let's see what kind of career Harding has and let's revisit this issue. I have a feeling the critical posts are not going to age well.

What happened to that 5 star Omaha Bielew kid?

 

[Hans81]

Yes, there are rare exceptions in some general data sets. This is neither remarkable nor material to Harding's case.

If you think Harding compares to the Murrays in any way, you have no idea what you are talking about about. The Murrays had no physical/athletic limitations. They were built like NBA players. Not the case with Harding. Should be obvious.

Thelwell was so "outstanding" that he was recruited by Moorhead State and played there for 75% of his career. He doesn't have the limitations that Harding does but there's a reason he was not recruited by power conference teams (until Fran came along).

If you’re so down on Iowa basketball…why are you here? You can always go to the clown board with all those asshats. 🤮

 

[Hans81]

Sorry, but he is not at the BIG level. The kid has a ton of heart and is a superb ball handler, but his D is lacking and he is just not quick enough.

I think Harding’s height is also a detriment, but it appears he has improved on his shooting this season. However, it helps that he played high school ball with Freeman as they have good on-court communication.

 

[ddeanHawk]

Harding is improving by leaps and bounds

 

[Hawk_4shur]

Iowa has "talent". Good players with skills. They belong in the B1G. They are just not as talented as ISU. Not many teams are.

The issue with the Hawkeye players is that they are not "great". And most of them are not big and strong. Iowa has a collection of very good role players with no real stars. Each one of them can be stopped by good defense.

For Iowa to win against really good teams they have to be firing on all cylinders for 40 minutes. No one in foul trouble, no one limited by an injury.

Also, I've said for years that Iowa needs upper classmen to compete in the B1G. Veteran guys. Iowa (the guys that play) has 2 seniors and 1 junior.

The Hawks are going to win some games in the B1G. You don't do that with "no talent".

 

[ISUBryce]

I don’t know…you tell us clown fan.

If anything, it's not a significant amount.

1. I know when KSU signed Coleman Hawkins and paid him 2 million, Blum said that was more than ISU's entire basketball NIL budget. So the idea that some billionaire is throwing money hand over fist at ISU that's just not correct.

2. Let's look at what happened last offseason. ISU really wanted J'Vonne Hadley who is now at Louisville. Couldn't pay him what Louisville could. Went out and got Jefferson who was coming off of an injury, so cheap. Curtis Jones - went to Indian Hills then Buffalo. Not expensive. Lipsey, local guy, we know he's not taking what he's worth. Gilbert spent his entire career basically at UNLV injured. So, got a deal on him too. All of the evidence is that ISU cannot compete with teams throwing high dollars around in NIL on the basketball side.

What happened to that 5 star Omaha Bielew kid?

Went to Wake Forest and is out for a few months with an injury I believe.

 

[ISUBryce]

Also, I've said for years that Iowa needs upper classmen to compete in the B1G. Veteran guys. Iowa (the guys that play) has 2 seniors and 1 junior.

That's college basketball now.

It used to be that sometimes mid-majors could jump up and make a run in the NCAA tournament when a class aged up and they had a bunch of juniors and seniors that could compete with the maybe younger, more physically talented high major schools.

The problem with CBB now is that those older players are now just transferring once they get seasoned up to high major basketball so every high major team is old now. Especially in the wake of Covid. I think I it will somewhat move back but with the transfer portal being what it is I think the cat is out of the bag there.

 

[birthhawk]

Iowa has "talent". Good players with skills. They belong in the B1G. They are just not as talented as ISU. Not many teams are.

The issue with the Hawkeye players is that they are not "great". And most of them are not big and strong. Iowa has a collection of very good role players with no real stars. Each one of them can be stopped by good defense.

For Iowa to win against really good teams they have to be firing on all cylinders for 40 minutes. No one in foul trouble, no one limited by an injury.

Also, I've said for years that Iowa needs upper classmen to compete in the B1G. Veteran guys. Iowa (the guys that play) has 2 seniors and 1 junior.

The Hawks are going to win some games in the B1G. You don't do that with "no talent".

This is true. However, Fran's inability to coach defense is the biggest issue we have. These guys go to another school that coaches d, and we're not talking a "talent" disparity.

 

[Rambler Hawk]

Iowa has "talent". Good players with skills. They belong in the B1G. They are just not as talented as ISU. Not many teams are.

The issue with the Hawkeye players is that they are not "great". And most of them are not big and strong. Iowa has a collection of very good role players with no real stars. Each one of them can be stopped by good defense.

For Iowa to win against really good teams they have to be firing on all cylinders for 40 minutes. No one in foul trouble, no one limited by an injury.

Also, I've said for years that Iowa needs upper classmen to compete in the B1G. Veteran guys. Iowa (the guys that play) has 2 seniors and 1 junior.

The Hawks are going to win some games in the B1G. You don't do that with "no talent".

Well put - I think if Iowa is ever going to make a deep run, they will need to follow the recipe that Wisconsin had for many years. Maybe to a certain extent Purdue. I don't think we will ever be able to pull in the type of recruits that ILL, MSU, etc. seem to pull in year after year....

 

[jonesy5960]

Iowa has talent. I think it's mostly just a function of the type of players that Fran recruits. He's great at coaching offense and that's his priority and it's reflected in the makeup of the roster and how he manages personnel. There aren't a whole lot of coaches that would keep playing Sandfort 35-40 minutes per game given the start that he's had this year, but Fran does because coming into this year Payton was expected to be the offensive leader on the team.

What this has all led to is a team devoid of players with the size and physical attributes to rebound effectively. Even Freeman as the starting 5 is often physically overmatched inside by most teams that Iowa faces. The team is really undersized and unathletic in the frontcourt with Sandfort and Dembele playing alongside Freeman. You pair that with a coach who places a lower emphasis on defense and rebounding and it only exacerbates those physical limitations.

 

[DewHawk]

Personally, I believe the talent level is way down in the B1G this year, which may work in Iowa's favor. Ohio State were just eviscerated this afternoon by Auburn and Purdue lost again, this time to Texas A&M. We'll see how Illinois fares against Tennessee today, but it won't surprise me if that's another loss. Overall, it seems as though if we continue to make strides on defense (which has been better this season) and can find someone that will take rebounding as their sacred duty, we might just finish higher than predicted (again)!

I agree the BIG talent level appears to be down this year, but Iowa does not appear to be all that talented or motivated to rebound. JMO

 

[CeMar_Clone]

What happened to that 5 star Omaha Bielew kid?

He was not good enough.

 

[AmericaNeedsMe]

Sorry, but he is not at the BIG level. The kid has a ton of heart and is a superb ball handler, but his D is lacking and he is just not quick enough.

Good post. I'm not pursuing this argument because I'm not going to trash Harding. He was offered the scholly and he took it just like anyone else in his situation would. He's a good kid and teammate.

 

[Iafootballfan]

If anything, it's not a significant amount.

1. I know when KSU signed Coleman Hawkins and paid him 2 million, Blum said that was more than ISU's entire basketball NIL budget. So the idea that some billionaire is throwing money hand over fist at ISU that's just not correct.

This is the main point, ISU spends a lot of cash on MBB NIL compared to... who? Most P5 schools are still outspending them.

 

[Ronman]

Sorry, but he is not at the BIG level. The kid has a ton of heart and is a superb ball handler, but his D is lacking and he is just not quick enough.

Robbie Hummel seems to think he is. He spoke very highly of Harding yesterday, congratulating him on making the strides he needed to take to play in this league. But what does Hummel know?

 

[General Tso]

Under-recruited players succeed often, and 5-stars sometimes fail. Anyone on this board should be well aware of that reality.

One quick example of a vast number available: Nobody wanted the Murray brothers. People on this board ripped Fran for giving them scholarships. Posters said Fran should be fired for recruiting them just because they were legacies. People said they saw the Murrays play in high school and they were not even close to being D-1 talents. Fran signed them anyway, and they did OK, and they're still doing OK in that thing called the NBA. LOL

Harding and Thelwell are outstanding PGs. Thelwell is experienced, and Harding will continue to improve. He's only a sophomore. He has natural instincts that few players have. Let's see what kind of career Harding has and let's revisit this issue. I have a feeling the critical posts are not going to age well.

Imagine a 4x4 matrix, recruiting stars on the horizontal axis and some measure of actual performance, contribution, etc on the vertical axis. There'd be dots scattered around and a handful in the upper left quadrant (Murray's, Garza , etc), but if you draw a line through the middle of those dots, it would be up and to the right.

 

[Ronman]

Iowa has "talent". Good players with skills. They belong in the B1G. They are just not as talented as ISU. Not many teams are.

The issue with the Hawkeye players is that they are not "great". And most of them are not big and strong. Iowa has a collection of very good role players with no real stars. Each one of them can be stopped by good defense.

For Iowa to win against really good teams they have to be firing on all cylinders for 40 minutes. No one in foul trouble, no one limited by an injury.

Also, I've said for years that Iowa needs upper classmen to compete in the B1G. Veteran guys. Iowa (the guys that play) has 2 seniors and 1 junior.

The Hawks are going to win some games in the B1G. You don't do that with "no talent".

That's why I would hope that more of the NIL money would be funneled into basketball. You only really need one or two studs with the balance being role playing talented players.

 

[Ronman]

Went to Wake Forest and is out for a few months with an injury I believe.

Iowa State is getting into the nasty habit of signing the 5 star players in Iowa and then somehow never playing them, whether it be bad behavior or bad attitude. Maybe things would have been different for them if they had chosen Iowa. Maybe not.