Thad Matta and Steve Kerr have taught us a lesson: Avoid back surgery at all costs

[Franisdaman]

Just fired Ohio State Buckeye head coach Thad Matta is just 49 but has been battling health issues for nearly a decade, since a botched back surgery left him without a fully functioning right foot, requiring a brace, as well as lingering back issues. He walks with a limp and, during games, sits in a special chair along the bench to alleviate some of the back pain.

Source: http://www.hawkcentral.com/story/sp...-coach-one-more-year-at-ohio-state/102517068/

Golden State Warrior Head Coach Kerr has been very vocal about the misery he's dealt with since his back operations....The coach said he regretted his decision to undergo the surgery.

'I can tell you if you're listening out there, if you have a back problem, stay away from surgery,' Kerr said on Sunday. 'I can say that from the bottom of my heart. Rehab, rehab, rehab. Don't let anybody get in there.'

Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4441304/Steve-Kerr-urges-people-rehab-NOT-surgery.html

* Have any of you had back issues?
* What was the cause (overweight; sports injury; etc)?
* How did you/have you dealt with the back issues? Surgery? Rehab?
* Did you see a chiropractor or Medical doctor?
* Did you have a good or bad outcome as a result of the surgery/rehab?
* If you had a bad outcome, how is your everyday life now (lots of pain? struggle to do certain tasks?, etc)?
* What do you recommend to others with back issues?

 

[bagdropper]

Or maybe avoid the activity that caused the back issues from the start.

 

[Lamoni]

Mack from Xavier has to be their top target.

 

[Hawksfor3]

That has to be tough. I know how they must feel, but I had a Lumbar Laminectomy (L-3,4,5) in 2004, and it seemed to go ok. No rehab needed, but some numbness in my left thigh. What I had was minor compared to theirs, as mine was a trim the discs procedure.

 

[Hawksfor3]

* Did you see a chiropractor or Medical doctor?

What the Chiropractor did to me was Nurse Ratchet stuff. He and his son twisted me into a pretzel and jerked me suddenly without warning. They said "Does that feel better now?"

After they told me to get off the exam table, and when I requested that they help me up, I walked into the waiting room pale-faced, in pain, and damned close to shock. No, their methods along with heat therapy and medication didn't help.

 

[Franisdaman]

What the Chiropractor did to me was Nurse Ratchet stuff. He and his son twisted me into a pretzel and jerked me suddenly without warning. They said "Does that feel better now?"

After they told me to get off the exam table, and when I requested that they help me up, I walked into the waiting room pale-faced, in pain, and damned close to shock. No, their methods along with heat therapy and medication didn't help.

Yikes!!!!

 

[Hawksfor3]

Yikes!!!!

I was in a cold sweat and my wife couldn't believe how my face looked. At a later visit, it was decided that I needed surgery.

 

[2432Hawk]

Glad I was reluctant at 19 years old and a bulging disc. Surgery was recommend but I refused and researched on my own as I wanted to know why it was bulging.

Long story short basically rehabed with yoga like stretching and helped balance the strength of my core and fixed issue without surgery.

 

[iahawkeyes17]

Glad I was reluctant at 19 years old and a bulging disc. Surgery was recommend but I refused and researched on my own as I wanted to know why it was bulging.

Long story short basically rehabed with yoga like stretching and helped balance the strength of my core and fixed issue without surgery.

Had something similar with a herniated disc. Spinal doctor informed me lot of people can have bulging or herniated disc but the severity can be quite different. First time I did rehab and worked. Years latter had another one where herniated and pinched the sciatic nerve even though technically had 2 more that just caused soreness. Did surgery on that and really helped the pain something similar to Tiger Woods but not as severe. I guess it all depends on what the injury and where at in the back with the surgery non surgery.

 

[SSG T]

Or maybe avoid the activity that caused the back issues from the start.

My cousin was a D1 football player and has pretty much stayed in shape since his playing days were over. He injured his back and spent over a year recovering after getting his (then) 2 year old daughter out of a car seat.

How do you avoid activities that might injure your back when you use it for almost everything?

 

[SSG T]

While not the initial cause of his problems, but a big part of Kerr's current issues have to do with leaking spinal fluid. That was brought on by his surgery, which is partially why he's pushing the rehab part instead of surgery.

 

[hawkeyeabroad]

Herniated discs are much more common in the healthy population than we usually believe and MRIs are largely unreliable tools to diagnose the cause of low back pain. Strongly recommend seeing a physical therapist who is competent in manipulation and directional preference exercise before even considering surgery. In the absence of dramatically declining neurologic status or suspicion of other real flags like fracture/tumor, imaging is not necessary. Save your money and see a DPT.

 

[Hawksfor3]

I wonder if stretching the spine really does help. I've seen the commercials for the Teeter Hangup and the old dude says: "...and I feel great!!!" LOL.

 

[EastIowaHawk]

Surgery should be the last resort. Most back injuries, discs, etc. get better on their own or with rehab. Sometimes surgery is necessary, but no one should rush into it. The best orthopedic surgeons recommend rest, followed by PT or rehab and do surgery only when necessary. The money-grubbers or the under-busy want to operate right away. On medical chart reviews BY DOCTOR PEERS the number one unnecessary or out-and-out fraudulent surgical billing is for orthopedic operations.

 

[anon_bb9wlf9kj42py]

It has to be situational because I've had friends with chronic back pain get surgery and be much better as soon as they get off the table. I'd love to see what we can do with stem cells and stuff in the near future though because I've heard fantastic stuff about what they can do for knees and shoulders.

 

[DavenportHawk8]

Glad I was reluctant at 19 years old and a bulging disc. Surgery was recommend but I refused and researched on my own as I wanted to know why it was bulging.

Long story short basically rehabed with yoga like stretching and helped balance the strength of my core and fixed issue without surgery.

I have spoken to several doctors and they all say "core" strength is the leading cause of back pain. I had a bad back injury when playing football in HS (basically got horse collared and drug down to the ground from behind). It was so painful and it never fully healed.

10 years later moving into our first home and I went to lift something and I felt the same pain. Oh my god did it hurt. I went to several doctors and PT's and they all said if I tighten up my core it shouldn't hurt. So i concentrated on doing that and low and behold no back issues. I can golf, lift, and do other things without any pain. I went to 1 Chiro and I came out in more pain than when I went in. I will never go to one of those again.

 

[Franisdaman]

speaking of core issues, i have heard that the number one cause of lower back pain is weak stomach muscles

 

[HawkPT]

speaking of core issues, i have heard that the number one cause of lower back pain is weak stomach muscles

False

 

[hawkeyeabroad]

speaking of core issues, i have heard that the number one cause of lower back pain is weak stomach muscles

This may be beyond the scope of the board but this is a huge misconception. Stabilization exercises are not necessarily a bad thing to do but they alone are unlikely to cure low back pain that wasn't already going to heal on its own. Basically people are told by general MDs or chiros or shitty PTs that their spines are unstable so they become scared to move. This immobilization can cause more pain and lead to fear avoidant behavior that kicks the can way down the road.

 

[Hawksfor3]

I went to 1 Chiro and I came out in more pain than when I went in. I will never go to one of those again.

My thoughts exactly, especially after the "Pretzel Twist and Jerk" I received. Never felt that sort of pain/shock before.

 

[Franisdaman]

This may be beyond the scope of the board but this is a huge misconception. Stabilization exercises are not necessarily a bad thing to do but they alone are unlikely to cure low back pain that wasn't already going to heal on its own. Basically people are told by general MDs or chiros or shitty PTs that their spines are unstable so they become scared to move. This immobilization can cause more pain and lead to fear avoidant behavior that kicks the can way down the road.

WebMD agrees with me regarding weak stomach muscles and back pain.

Back Wrecker #1: Weekend Warfare

"Most often, I see people who injured themselves during a weekend basketball game or a round of golf," Shamie says. "These people think they're athletes, but don't train like the pros, and as a result, their backs suffer."

Tackling those "Honey Do" lists at home can also set you up for injury, especially if you were idle for most of the week. Cleaning out the garage, bending over a workbench, or spending hours in the yard or garden can be just as hard on your back as anything you do on a playing field.

Prevent it: "The only preventive solution I've found for back pain is exercise," says Michael Hisey, MD, orthopedic surgeon and president of the Texas Back Institute in Denton, Texas. "The fix is to stretch and strengthen your core muscles."

The obliques -- the abdominal muscles on your sides -- are especially important for back stability, Hisey tells WebMD.

Hisey's tip: Get an inflatable exercise ball. Use it in your workouts and sit on it, instead of a chair, to engage your abs.

Link: http://www.webmd.com/back-pain/features/how-to-wreck-your-back#1

 

[Franisdaman]

False

you are wrong.

 

[hawkeyeabroad]

WebMD agrees with me regarding weak stomach muscles and back pain.

Back Wrecker #1: Weekend Warfare

"Most often, I see people who injured themselves during a weekend basketball game or a round of golf," Shamie says. "These people think they're athletes, but don't train like the pros, and as a result, their backs suffer."

Tackling those "Honey Do" lists at home can also set you up for injury, especially if you were idle for most of the week. Cleaning out the garage, bending over a workbench, or spending hours in the yard or garden can be just as hard on your back as anything you do on a playing field.

Prevent it: "The only preventive solution I've found for back pain is exercise," says Michael Hisey, MD, orthopedic surgeon and president of the Texas Back Institute in Denton, Texas. "The fix is to stretch and strengthen your core muscles."

The obliques -- the abdominal muscles on your sides -- are especially important for back stability, Hisey tells WebMD.

Hisey's tip: Get an inflatable exercise ball. Use it in your workouts and sit on it, instead of a chair, to engage your abs.

Link: http://www.webmd.com/back-pain/features/how-to-wreck-your-back#1

Appreciate the reply and your interest in physical rehabilitation. I do feel compelled to point out that your original assertion was that weak stomach muscles are the number one cause of low back pain. There is nothing in the news article that you posted that supports that notion.

Secondly, anecdotal opinion found on a WebMD article is of absolutely no influence in the field of medicine. As I originally stated, I feel this may be beyond the scope of the board but I can assure you there is ample empirical evidence to reject the healing powers of stabilization exercises.

Third, obliques are on the lower end of muscles that provide mechanical support to the lumbar spine. Far more support comes from the transverse abdominus and the lumbar paraspinals. Truly isolating a contraction of any of these muscles is extremely difficult so this point on a functional scale is moot.

I want to be clear that my assertions are not just opinion nor can I claim ownership of the concepts in anyway. They are the regurgitation, in Layman's terms, of the most current concepts in spinal rehabilitation. If you are interested in exposure to real research, I would recommend gaining access to PubMed as a great starting point. Thanks for the reply!

 

[Suterman]

I had back surgery 30 years ago. I had a discectomy and a laminectomy. I had tried everything exercises, acupuncture, hypnosis, muscle relaxers....everything. the chiropractor practically killed me. I had my surgery on New Years Eve 1986. Since that time.., I have had not one issue. Before surgery I couldn't lie down or stand up without excruciating pain. I have experienced no problems whatsoever. I may be the outlier but surgery was the answer for me.

 

[froggy67]

Herniated L-5 in 1985. Dr in Burlington sent me to Steindler Clinic in IC. I met Dr Pontarelli there and the first thing he said was "You haven't been doing anything stupid like seeing a chiropractor have you?" Was in horrible pain, left leg was numb from the thigh dowbn, my left foot was completely useless, pain in my ankle was almost enough to bring tears. Ended up getting a cortisone shot which gave me enough relief that I could sort of walk again. Slowly it subsided. Since 85 I have had several bouts of extreme pain that require morphine shots and more cortisone shots. With every doctor I have seen in all those years each and every one told me "if you can live with the pain, don't have surgery because there is no certainty that you will be any better afterward and you might [possibly be worse. Various levels of pain have been the story of my life. I now have issues with L-5, L-4, and L-3 and I have had fusion surgery but that was in my neck. Now have dead person bone and titanium in my neck, but thaT'S ANOTHER STORY.

 

[bdg8]

Had a laminectomy. Feel better than before surgery but some days are not great

 

[hawkeyeabroad]

I had back surgery 30 years ago. I had a discectomy and a laminectomy. I had tried everything exercises, acupuncture, hypnosis, muscle relaxers....everything. the chiropractor practically killed me. I had my surgery on New Years Eve 1986. Since that time.., I have had not one issue. Before surgery I couldn't lie down or stand up without excruciating pain. I have experienced no problems whatsoever. I may be the outlier but surgery was the answer for me.

When all else fails, surgery should definitely come into play. Sounds like it worked wonders for you which is what really matters. I can assure you there are many success stories on both sides of the treatment table. Low back pain is an incredibly diverse topic with a ton of potential causative factors. Certainly some of those require surgery. Glad you had an excellent outcome!

 

[Kinnick4Ever]

Appreciate hawkeyeabroad's professional insights, which seem to reflect current research-based understanding of these very complex issues. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Hawksfor3]

the chiropractor practically killed me.

I hear you Brother. I share your pain.

 

[Hawksfor3]

"You haven't been doing anything stupid like seeing a chiropractor have you?"

I'm seeing a connection here. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Hawksfor3]

Had a laminectomy. Feel better than before surgery but some days are not great

I hear you. In my above post, I stated that I had a Laminectomy in 2004. You are right that it helps but we have good and bad days.

 

[Suterman]

When all else fails, surgery should definitely come into play. Sounds like it worked wonders for you which is what really matters. I can assure you there are many success stories on both sides of the treatment table. Low back pain is an incredibly diverse topic with a ton of potential causative factors. Certainly some of those require surgery. Glad you had an excellent outcome!

Yes it was the LS1 that was causing me my troubles. The sciatica alone was brutal. Back pain is just the worst because it's all you can think about when you have it. I am very fortunate to say the least.

 

[DanL53]

My opinion is that weak abs have are seldom the cause of Low Back Pain.

I apologize for the long rant. The false statements needed addressed. I felt the need to educate those who are reading this that some posters might not have their best interests at heart. There is a reason professional sports teams utilize Chiropractors as a key treatment option for their athletes. The good ones can do things that no other professional can do.

Thanks. I've wanted to post something but didn't feel I could say it...your thoughts kind of opened up a hole for me to run through. And I think you will agree.

I was a patient of said clinic and at the same time received treatment from a Chiropractor who I will only qualify this way...I saw Iowa Wrestlers using his services. If one doesn't think they have in interest in good health, I don't know what to tell you. I have no complaints about either service nor the physical therapy that I received. Likewise, I think the therapeutic massages offered at the Chiro's office...and the weight program he suggested, led by a local health/weight training place, worked wonders. All this to work on a hip screwed up when a semi rear-ended me on the interstate.

I've wanted to come on here and say that as with all things there are good and bad results in Therapy, Chiropractic, Orthopedics.....

...but the bad idea of 'em all is probably reading a sports forum and giving it any weight in regards to potential future treatments.

 

[Franisdaman]

Interesting read:

How Do the Abdominal Muscles Affect Body Posture?
by Sara Melone

The abdominal muscles are a group of six muscles that wrap around the center of your body from the rib cage to the pelvis. These muscles are important to your body's health, as they assist with everything from breathing and walking to supporting proper posture and alignment of your spine. Without healthy abdominal muscles supporting your posture, your body cannot function properly. Over time, you may find that even basic tasks become increasingly more difficult.


Transversus Abdominis
The transverse abdominis is the deepest abdominal layer most connected to posture, and it wraps around the torso like a back support belt. A study conducted by Paul Hodges and Carolyn Richardson published in the "Journal of Spinal Disorders" notes a direct correlation between the strength of the transverse muscle and its ability to stabilize the spine and protect the back and pelvis from injury. According to Corrective Exercise Kinesiologist David Grisaffi, the lack of strength in this muscle can change the alignment of the pelvis and ultimately change your body's posture. The plank pose can help you strengthen this muscle. Get on your stomach with your elbows and toes on the floor to support your weight. Straighten your back, pull in the abs and lift your body off the floor for 30 to 60 seconds.

Internal Obliques
Second only to the transverse abdominis, the internal obliques are also closely associated with posture. Located on each side of the torso, the internal obliques are the second deepest abdominal layer and assist with rotation of the torso in addition to lateral flexion of the spine, which occurs when you bend at the waist and lean your upper body to one side. The obliques help support and protect the body from injury during these movements. Keep your internal obliques strong with some basic ab crunches. Lie on your back with your hands behind your head, and slowly raise and lower your torso, exhaling as you come up and inhaling as you go down for at least 30 reps

Back Pain
The abdominal muscles are so closely related to posture, poor abdominal strength can contribute to chronic back pain by forcing the lower back to work harder and compensate for an unstable core. Additionally, weak abdominal muscles can cause the stomach to protrude and affect the alignment of the spine. Demonstrate this for yourself by standing up with your back straight and loosen your stomach muscles until everything droops. Notice how your lower back arches uncomfortably. Pull your ab muscles in tight, and feel how your spine realigns correctly.

Additional Problems
In addition to back pain resulting from poor posture, you may experience pain throughout your body due to weak abdominal muscles. A misaligned spine can result in subluxations, where individual vertebrae fall out of place along the spinal cord. These subluxations can interfere with the complex nerve system running the length of the spinal cord and may cause pain or discomfort anywhere in the body, notes the World Chiropractic Alliance.

http://healthyliving.azcentral.com/abdominal-muscles-affect-body-posture-5543.html

 

[hawkeyeabroad]

My opinion is that weak abs have are seldom the cause of Low Back Pain.

The following are all facts:

There are a lot of bad Chiropractors out there.
There are a lot of bad Medical Doctors out there
There are a lot of bad Physical Therapists out there
A certain "anti-Chiropractic" clinic mentioned on this thread has referred dozens of patients to my chiropractic clinic. That doesn't fit one posters statements or possibly his agenda but it is a fact.
I see several patients every week that have had poor response to surgery and/or PT. This does not mean that their doctors or therapists were bad. There are bad professionals in every field.

I have a great relationship with some MD's, PT's, and ortho's .
The good PT's, MD's, and ortho's will refer you to a chiropractor if you aren't getting better. Any MD, Ortho, or PT that says avoid chiropractors should leave you shaking your head and running out the door. They should advise you to find a good chiropractor. Several refer to me because they know I am conservative with my treatment plans.

The good MD's, Ortho's, and PT's want to work together to help the patient. There are way too many ego's out there that are detrimental to patient care. The patient's health should come first. People complain about a chiropractor hurting them while the medical field bombards them with harmful drugs, which is somehow considered acceptable. Look at the side effects of all the medications our population is on.

A couple of warning signs for bad chiropractors.
1. They will try getting a big upfront payment and get you to sign up for dozens of treatments. Avoid these guys
2. They perform the same manipulation on everyone. We call it the flying 7. Don't go to these guys.
A good chiropractor will want to get you doing at home exercises and taking charge of your own health as soon as possible. Don't go to them if that isn't part of the treatment plan in the first couple of visits.

I don't appreciate being lumped in the bad group. I refer patients out if I don't help them in the first couple of visits. I recently had a patient trying to avoid a 2nd shoulder surgery. She had been doing PT since last November and planned on missing all summer due to shoulder pain. 6 treatments and she is released from care, I got a text this week that she is golfed without pain. This doesn't happen for everyone but it does happen regularly at our office and with other good chiropractors in the state. Find a good one and you will understand the difference between the good ones and the rest.

For the professionals(medical or PT's) on here who have bashed chiropractors, I would like to challenge you to refer me your most difficult patients. The ones you aren't helping. I would wager you will have a different thought towards chiropractors when I am done.

I apologize for the long rant. The false statements needed addressed. I felt the need to educate those who are reading this that some posters might not have their best interests at heart. There is a reason professional sports teams utilize Chiropractors as a key treatment option for their athletes. The good ones can do things that no other professional can do.

Completely agree that there are bad practitioners in any field. It is not fair to collectively lump chiropractors as bad and there is a huge misconception that manipulation or "adjustments" are inherently dangerous. With proper screening there is a wealth of evidence to support the benefits and safety of those techniques. It sounds like you are competent practitioner and if I was in Iowa, I would definitely be open to sending my difficult cases your way for input.

Some of my personal issues with the chiropractic community stems from battles at the legislative level between our associations as well as many of the practices you mentioned. It is all too often that I am referred patients who were simply put on the mechanical massage table, followed by TENS, and finally have the chiropractor come for a quick adjustment (if you're real unlucky they use the activator). This is frequently supplemented with irresponsible education about spinal alignment and no exercise program as you stated. The business model of these practices seems to be geared towards creating dependence and lacks the intent of creating a long term anatomical change that benefits the patient and not just the bottom line.

Finally, I really do apologize if you felt like you were lumped into the "bad" category by my previous statements. Sometimes my passion for the field comes out in a more negative way than I intend. I am very open to any critiques you have regarding my previous paragraph and welcome the discussion it creates.

 

[froggy67]

My opinion is that weak abs have are seldom the cause of Low Back Pain.

The following are all facts:

There are a lot of bad Chiropractors out there.
There are a lot of bad Medical Doctors out there
There are a lot of bad Physical Therapists out there
A certain "anti-Chiropractic" clinic mentioned on this thread has referred dozens of patients to my chiropractic clinic. That doesn't fit one posters statements or possibly his agenda but it is a fact.
I see several patients every week that have had poor response to surgery and/or PT. This does not mean that their doctors or therapists were bad. There are bad professionals in every field.

I have a great relationship with some MD's, PT's, and ortho's .
The good PT's, MD's, and ortho's will refer you to a chiropractor if you aren't getting better. Any MD, Ortho, or PT that says avoid chiropractors should leave you shaking your head and running out the door. They should advise you to find a good chiropractor. Several refer to me because they know I am conservative with my treatment plans.

The good MD's, Ortho's, and PT's want to work together to help the patient. There are way too many ego's out there that are detrimental to patient care. The patient's health should come first. People complain about a chiropractor hurting them while the medical field bombards them with harmful drugs, which is somehow considered acceptable. Look at the side effects of all the medications our population is on.

A couple of warning signs for bad chiropractors.
1. They will try getting a big upfront payment and get you to sign up for dozens of treatments. Avoid these guys
2. They perform the same manipulation on everyone. We call it the flying 7. Don't go to these guys.
A good chiropractor will want to get you doing at home exercises and taking charge of your own health as soon as possible. Don't go to them if that isn't part of the treatment plan in the first couple of visits.

I don't appreciate being lumped in the bad group. I refer patients out if I don't help them in the first couple of visits. I recently had a patient trying to avoid a 2nd shoulder surgery. She had been doing PT since last November and planned on missing all summer due to shoulder pain. 6 treatments and she is released from care, I got a text this week that she is golfed without pain. This doesn't happen for everyone but it does happen regularly at our office and with other good chiropractors in the state. Find a good one and you will understand the difference between the good ones and the rest.

For the professionals(medical or PT's) on here who have bashed chiropractors, I would like to challenge you to refer me your most difficult patients. The ones you aren't helping. I would wager you will have a different thought towards chiropractors when I am done.

I apologize for the long rant. The false statements needed addressed. I felt the need to educate those who are reading this that some posters might not have their best interests at heart. There is a reason professional sports teams utilize Chiropractors as a key treatment option for their athletes. The good ones can do things that no other professional can do.

 

[froggy67]

I have no "agenda" and what I reported were exactly the words spoken by Dr Pontarelli when I first saw him. Perhaps you neglected to read the comment about this happening in "1985", a mere 32 years ago. You might also be interested to know that I now see a chiropractor in West Point, Iowa who has helped me deal with the curvature of the spine that my walking in a manner to create compensation for the pain this condition has caused me after all these years. On top of that, the Veterans Administration pays for part of the cost of my visits. I commented only to relate what I had been told more than once over the years I have suffered with back problems. And on top of that, the chiropractor I see took x-rays of my spine and also discovered I had 2.1 cm gall stone that was removed 2 weeks ago. Despite numerous MRI's, Scans and x-rays, the VA doctors had never noticed the gall stone. Yes indeed, there are many docs, chiros and voodoo practitioners out there and they don't all have the same levels of skill. I made no false statements in regards to my situation and the institution that provided me back care for approximately 25 years of the 32 year I have been seeing physicians. You appear to be rather quick to jump to conclusions and obviously have a reading comprehension issue. Perhaps you should be seeing someone.

 

[WB67hawk]

The OP might also want to add Toger Woods to the list. That hasn't gone so well either.

 

[froggy67]

The OP might also want to add Toger Woods to the list. That hasn't gone so well either.

I hope he is one day able to play golf the way he once did. The swing he has now certainly doesn't look lie his former powerful contact with the ball.