The American Education Experiment is Dead--Welcome to Dumb America
- Thread starter GOHOX69
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I’m a middle school teacher and I will share the following observations/opinions:
1. Thank god I left Iowa years ago. It’s been so sad to see how much the state of Iowa has fallen in education.
2. This idea that public schools are being inundated with curriculum changes dealing with CRT and gender/sexuality studies is laughably ridiculous and a complete myth. And when irresponsible people like @RNHawk perpetuate that myth with asinine comments the only purpose it serves is to generate more unneeded hostility toward the people who show up every day and work their tails off to teach kids math, language arts, science, etc.
3. The vast majority of teachers are good, but there are a few who are terrible and deserve to be let go. We all know the reason why it’s difficult to get rid of a bad teacher.
4. Too many parents are worthless and either don’t invest in their kids’ education or are too busy trying to be best buddies with them. The lack of cooperation from some parents is astounding. And by and large that is why so many kids, by the time they get to middle school, are reading and writing well below grade level.
5. @ihhawk is correct about the breakdown of the family and all the problems it causes. I don’t necessarily agree, though, that there’s a widening racial gap in achievement based off single-parent homes. I teach in a suburban school district that is very diverse. I do not see a significant difference along racial lines in terms of two-parent homes or two-parent involvement. Obviously, socioeconomic factors are greater in prevalence in more urban areas of the country in terms of single-parent homes, which obviously disproportionately affects non-whites, but I think we need to be careful in framing it as something racial. Pretty much all of the nonwhite parents I work with are just as vested in their kids’ education as white parents are. This is also true for the students.
1. Thank god I left Iowa years ago. It’s been so sad to see how much the state of Iowa has fallen in education.
2. This idea that public schools are being inundated with curriculum changes dealing with CRT and gender/sexuality studies is laughably ridiculous and a complete myth. And when irresponsible people like @RNHawk perpetuate that myth with asinine comments the only purpose it serves is to generate more unneeded hostility toward the people who show up every day and work their tails off to teach kids math, language arts, science, etc.
3. The vast majority of teachers are good, but there are a few who are terrible and deserve to be let go. We all know the reason why it’s difficult to get rid of a bad teacher.
4. Too many parents are worthless and either don’t invest in their kids’ education or are too busy trying to be best buddies with them. The lack of cooperation from some parents is astounding. And by and large that is why so many kids, by the time they get to middle school, are reading and writing well below grade level.
5. @ihhawk is correct about the breakdown of the family and all the problems it causes. I don’t necessarily agree, though, that there’s a widening racial gap in achievement based off single-parent homes. I teach in a suburban school district that is very diverse. I do not see a significant difference along racial lines in terms of two-parent homes or two-parent involvement. Obviously, socioeconomic factors are greater in prevalence in more urban areas of the country in terms of single-parent homes, which obviously disproportionately affects non-whites, but I think we need to be careful in framing it as something racial. Pretty much all of the nonwhite parents I work with are just as vested in their kids’ education as white parents are. This is also true for the students.
I think the problems in education are just an extension of a greater problem within our entire economy/way of life. I think it’s largely about the pitfalls of remote control, the fragmentation of work, disassociation from from the whole—alienation.
The withholding of individual agency in the workplace/the community/everywhere, has created an environment where personal responsibility is often a ludicrous notion. When we find ourselves frustrated while working within a system more burdensome than facilitative, we insulate ourselves from our sometimes shoddy results by embracing our disassociation from the power structure.
Our systems have bloated to the point where we rarely perceive the support they offer, we often only feel them as restraints. We cope by shrugging our shoulders and going through the motions.
Our systems of remote control rob us of agency and pay us back with distributed risk and liability. Fück that.
The withholding of individual agency in the workplace/the community/everywhere, has created an environment where personal responsibility is often a ludicrous notion. When we find ourselves frustrated while working within a system more burdensome than facilitative, we insulate ourselves from our sometimes shoddy results by embracing our disassociation from the power structure.
Our systems have bloated to the point where we rarely perceive the support they offer, we often only feel them as restraints. We cope by shrugging our shoulders and going through the motions.
Our systems of remote control rob us of agency and pay us back with distributed risk and liability. Fück that.
This. My kids are learning crap two years ahead of when I learned the same crap.
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PROOF POINTS: 861 colleges and 9,499 campuses have closed down since 2004
Students are left without easy transfer options and most drop outhechingerreport.org
Your op is overall on point but my interpretation of your obeservations (inluding those i quoted) is actually very positive. College education (undergrad and to some extent grad) is a racket right now, so it makes total sense to me if a bunch of nonsense is shutting down and going away. that's what needs to happen. if they are truly going out of business maybe the system isn't as broken as we think. that stanford and many others' tuition also needs to shrink from 63k/y but we'll see how/if we get there. i remain hopeful about online platforms and their impact.
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Right now i personally know of 2 kids who have (in the last month) gotten full rides to a couple ivies and 1 to caltech. again all 3 are full rides. all the 3 kids are latino. all are good students but they are not top ranked (ie are outside the top 10 of their school).
only one of top 10 students has gotten into an ivy and will be paying full tuition via early admission. rest of the top ranked students have not gotten into ivies and will be paying full ticket to lower (but still good) schools.
any thoughts based on above (granted anecdotal) data from this year?
only one of top 10 students has gotten into an ivy and will be paying full tuition via early admission. rest of the top ranked students have not gotten into ivies and will be paying full ticket to lower (but still good) schools.
any thoughts based on above (granted anecdotal) data from this year?
I agree with the gist of what you're saying, but think you estimates are off. Here's what I see as a high school science teacher. I would say that about 20% are fairly high achievers, with the top 2-5% being head and shoulders above what the top students were 20 years ago in terms of their knowledge and skills. 10-20% are almost entirely disengaged, unwillingly to engage in anything related to learning, and would likely starve to death if they were stranded at home alone and had to microwave their own hot pocket. The massive number of kids in the middle are able to graduate from high school with a GPA between 3.00 and 3.50 with a token effort because we lower the bar so far to allow the chronically unmotivated to pass.
I didn’t deflect. You basically bashed “No Child Left Behind.” I stood in agreement with you. I actually like W, but he was a bad president and I can’t think of one person in education who thought his educational policies were anything but silly.
Nothing proves American stupidity more than the election of donald trump.
He was elected twice!!😉
As long as state and local governments are setting the rules, there will be no meaningful changes for the better. K-12 should be nationalized and students should wear school uniforms imo.
Obviously this won’t happen. Hate to say it but time to be selfish. Prepare, motivate and educate your kids at home. If school drags them down, time to find a new school or do home schooling.
Obviously this won’t happen. Hate to say it but time to be selfish. Prepare, motivate and educate your kids at home. If school drags them down, time to find a new school or do home schooling.
From what you describe, sounds like Ivies put more weight on things other than grades?
BINGO!
Paragraph #3.....Where America is going to today......Cities are where the opportunities are today for the most part...and there is enough "wealth" in these urban areas where "private schools" do impact educationally and often leave the public schools floundering to compete. As Obvious states, THAT is #1 reason why no tax money should be directed to the private schools. They don't need it.
This. When 25 year 8th grade language arts teachers are told their assignments are “too hard”, we’re definitely lowering the bar. Constantly trying to bring the bottom up, because test scores, and allowing the middle to coast. Too often.
Here’s my new opinion. If you send your child to kindergarten, and they get 10 referrals in the first quarter, your child will be removed from school, you can find daycare, and he/she can try again the next fall. It’s ridiculous that we have 5 year olds completely ruining learning environments for the other 24 kids who need attention as well. I really wish every adult would spend a couple weeks in a middle school or kindergarten classrooms in order to get a better understanding of what things actually look like these days.
I get tired of trying to explain things to the board Republicans.
100% agree with TomParis. Behavior issues in school make it next to impossible at times to teach my middle school math classes. When you contact home, nothing changes or you get the "what did you (the teacher) do wrong?" Zero accountability from parents. Its the teachers fault.
Problem #2 in my District (CR) is Standards Based Grading. This basically gives kids the license to do nothing + move on to the next grade. Grades don't matter. Kids know it. This is when behavior issues arise. Start requiring Summer School + hold them back a grade if they fail enough classes, and watch the importance of school change (with both kids + parents).
This is all wishful thinking. Nothing will change. What you allow, you encourage. Kids are allowed to misbehave with zero consequences. Kids are allowed to move on to the next grade without learning a thing.
It's really sad because there are ALOT of great kids who want to do well, and treat people (teachers + peers) with respect. They are overlooked + forgotten. It's always about the rights of the kids who constantly misbehave, threaten teachers and other students. What about the "good kids" who come to school for the right reasons? District Admin ties the hands of Building Admin and doesn't allow them to suspend kids in fear of "disproportionate number of suspensions" Send kids home for 3 days, make parents deal with them.
A LOT of layers to the problem here, but at its root is bad parenting.
Problem #2 in my District (CR) is Standards Based Grading. This basically gives kids the license to do nothing + move on to the next grade. Grades don't matter. Kids know it. This is when behavior issues arise. Start requiring Summer School + hold them back a grade if they fail enough classes, and watch the importance of school change (with both kids + parents).
This is all wishful thinking. Nothing will change. What you allow, you encourage. Kids are allowed to misbehave with zero consequences. Kids are allowed to move on to the next grade without learning a thing.
It's really sad because there are ALOT of great kids who want to do well, and treat people (teachers + peers) with respect. They are overlooked + forgotten. It's always about the rights of the kids who constantly misbehave, threaten teachers and other students. What about the "good kids" who come to school for the right reasons? District Admin ties the hands of Building Admin and doesn't allow them to suspend kids in fear of "disproportionate number of suspensions" Send kids home for 3 days, make parents deal with them.
A LOT of layers to the problem here, but at its root is bad parenting.
we are going downhill when Reps. like MTG win and go to DC....She must have missed the lecture on Communism 101
We should bring back lengthy suspensions and if that doesn’t work expel them and make parents pay for private schools.
I reached the point a few years ago that I think public education should be a privilege, not a right.
It is a privilege in many other countries. America has it good over other countries. People have no clue.
The No Child Left Behind has ruined our schools. My no pic wife has classes with around 6 TAG kids and 8 average kids and 5 BD kids and 6 special Ed/autistic/other learning disability kids. It is impossible now. Also kids that don’t speak English. We need to get back to separate Sped rooms and BD rooms. A friend’s wife is a para in the high school and deals with special needs kids that are non verbal and wear spit masks so they can’t spit on them. She has been punched and kicked and bitten. It’s insane.
Back to the privilege vs right debate.
We have a lot of students who open enroll to our school for a variety of reasons. I have no problem with a kid who open enrolls because their home school is so bad, but this should come at a price. The price is good attendance, but mostly good behavior.
Our biggest problem is a large majority (certainly not all) of our behavior problems are from kids who open enrolled. Again, our District Admin does not clamp down on this, and allows it to continue.
It's a joke
We have a lot of students who open enroll to our school for a variety of reasons. I have no problem with a kid who open enrolls because their home school is so bad, but this should come at a price. The price is good attendance, but mostly good behavior.
Our biggest problem is a large majority (certainly not all) of our behavior problems are from kids who open enrolled. Again, our District Admin does not clamp down on this, and allows it to continue.
It's a joke
As the parent of a kid applying to an Ivy and MIT they flat out tell you that your high school grades are not given much weight. Test scores, rigor of your HS score classes, extracurricular activities and volunteering all move the needle.
CR schools are indeed in "crisis". This article does not indicate the depth of the problem. District response hasn't been enough.
https://www.kcrg.com/2023/01/16/ced...dle-school-after-staff-voice-safety-concerns/
https://www.kcrg.com/2023/01/16/ced...dle-school-after-staff-voice-safety-concerns/
This is true; that side is doing better than ever.
Plenty on the other side are coming apart. They're doing worse. That's what I'm concerned about, the definite, palpable, growing class stratification taking place. That's not going end well. Right wing populist politics is taping into it right now, but that's only a start.
On 5... my sense has been that whites have been doing worse over the years, and it's mostly a class thing. Not that marriage rates are a direct connection to the problem, but there is a huge difference there between middle/upper and class and those in what we might traditionally consider the working class.
I don’t disagree. Is class stratification due to educational opportunities, or relative lack of good paying jobs for HS (and increasingly college) graduates? I’d also argue things like institutional ownership of homes and huge home appreciation has frozen out many from ever having the ability to attain any meaningful level of wealth. We are creating two- or three-tiered society but I’m not convinced it’s due to educational factors alone.
I don't know, and I agree, I don't think it's education alone, that seems more downstream.
Most of the arguments I've read are economic driven... like, say, the loss of industry along the rust belt and the ensuing social decay in the region amongst the working class. (snowball effect)
Or, cultural... something like the 60s blowing out the existing social norms that held quite a bit in place; that social pressure to conform to certain universal American standards is no longer maintained. Some groups faired well in the new regime, some didn't. Non judgementalism rules the day now. The "elites" -- the people that do well, won't wax judgemental for worry of being viewed as insensitive.
But then you have poor, uneducated immigrants that come to America and still do very well. It's hard to argue this is all simply lack of opportunity. I believe, as a whole, Mexican immigrants in American are ascending pretty well -- not unlike previous immigrant stories.
So it seems to me something happens to certain populations that has the insidious effect of destroying the habits and values of that which would produce upward mobility, that hastens the development of "bad habits."
I just don't understand in any detail what exactly what the configuration of that "something" is.
This was a good debate I listened to a while back on the topic: Two sociologists: Charles Murray and Robert Putman. Cuts right to the heart of what we're talking about in this thread:
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You know, this will be controversial here to some like @Formerly Rockymtnole but maybe this is one thing that state funded parochial school (ESAs) might solve. The parochial schools my kids attended won’t put up one second with any major behavioral BS. These kids will be booted out. Zero tolerance.
Example. I got called in one time to my kids middle school for a parent teacher meeting because my son threw a paper ball in class. I was furious for being called in to an after school meeting for something the teacher should have just handled. But now thinking back I’m sure I had that 100% wrong. Thankfully my kid turned out well though despite my error
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Example. I got called in one time to my kids middle school for a parent teacher meeting because my son threw a paper ball in class. I was furious for being called in to an after school meeting for something the teacher should have just handled. But now thinking back I’m sure I had that 100% wrong. Thankfully my kid turned out well though despite my error
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I can tell you this for certain:
1. My daughter was a struggling reader, multiple grade levels behind her 1st grade peers at the start of the pandemic. I worked/still work with her at home and today she’s now several grade levels above most of her 4th grade peers.
2. Over the last 10 years or so I’ve noticed an enormous trend of parents becoming less and less involved in their children’s education. They expect teachers to do it all, and it’s simply not possible. Teachers need reinforcement at home.
IMO real demise of education stems from parents simply not giving AF at home, and blaming others for shortcomings.
1. My daughter was a struggling reader, multiple grade levels behind her 1st grade peers at the start of the pandemic. I worked/still work with her at home and today she’s now several grade levels above most of her 4th grade peers.
2. Over the last 10 years or so I’ve noticed an enormous trend of parents becoming less and less involved in their children’s education. They expect teachers to do it all, and it’s simply not possible. Teachers need reinforcement at home.
IMO real demise of education stems from parents simply not giving AF at home, and blaming others for shortcomings.
On item 2... are these college educated parents... what sort of parents, generally?
All over the spectrum. On the whole, in my experience, they’re less involved than years past. Having said that, I have noticed of the parents who ARE involved, I’ve seen a greater number of non-college educated parents vs college educated. Anecdotal evidence, of course, but interesting at the same time.
Edit to add: I consider “college educated” as some time type post secondary training/education
Dumbing down the educational experience in an effort to ensure that even the weakest students are able to move through the system has destroyed public elementary, middle and high school education,.. College is moving down the same path...
I struggled understanding hearing parents, especially ones from a solid, traditional two parent family, not in poverty at all, say "We can't get him/her to do it.", when talking about signing in to zoom classes or doing online classwork during Covid. Who's in charge in those homes? C'mon parents!!
I really wish the state would start making some laws about discipline in schools and helping curb the outrageous behaviors. What I mean is going back to being able to expel and protect districts from lawsuits when they do. The government talks law and order but they sure as hell don't have it in too many schools.
I get tired of seeing school board policies not enforced.
I would totally be in favor of this,.. Appears to me that the current system has been designed simply to process all students without exception,.. Keep em moving, because there's more coming next year,.. Dealing with bumps in the road is not part of the program...
