The Argument Against Regulation

[What Would Jesus Do?]

“I was having this discussion with someone, and we were at a Starbucks in my district, and we were talking about certain regulations where I felt like maybe you should allow businesses to opt out,” Tillis recalled. “Let an industry or business opt out as long as they indicate through proper disclosure, through advertising, through employment, literature, whatever else. There’s this level of regulations that maybe they’re on the books, but maybe you can make a market-based decision as to whether or not they should apply to you.”

Tillis said that at about that time, a Starbucks employee came out of one of the restrooms.

“Don’t you believe that this regulation that requires this gentlemen to wash his hands before he serves your food is important?” Tillis was asked by the person at his table.

“I think it’s one I can illustrate the point,” Tillis told the women. “I said, I don’t have any problem with Starbucks if they choose to opt out of this policy as long as the post a sign that says ‘We don’t require our employees to wash their hands after leaving the restrooms.’ The market will take care of that.”

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/02/gop...ing-after-toilet-to-reduce-regulatory-burden/

 

[22*43*51]

The current hand washing regulation doesn't ensure hands are washed as it is.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

Note that he isn't really arguing against regulation. While he is willing to let restaurants opt out of sanitation regulations, he wants to impose disclosure regulations.

A real libertarian would just let the market decide. No regs, no disclosure, no government inspections, no government warnings about health hazards.

Just think how much better off we'd all be.

 

[The Tradition]

Note that he isn't really arguing against regulation. While he is willing to let restaurants opt out of sanitation regulations, he wants to impose disclosure regulations.

A real libertarian would just let the market decide. No regs, no disclosure, no government inspections, no government warnings about health hazards.

Just think how much better off we'd all be.

Do you trust government regulators to keep us safe? Does it let you sleep better at night knowing some bureaucrat is assigned to regulate nearly every facet of our lives? Do you have any data showing that regulation actually accomplishes anything other than providing a revenue stream for the government?

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

The current hand washing regulation doesn't ensure hands are washed as it is.

No. Hardly any laws or regs ensure compliance. I can't think of any, can you? Not sure why that needs mentioning.

 

[2facedboonefan]

Do you trust government regulators to keep us safe? Does it let you sleep better at night knowing some bureaucrat is assigned to regulate nearly every facet of our lives? Do you have any data showing that regulation actually accomplishes anything other than providing a revenue stream for the government?

Ever heard of Upton Sinclair?

 

[ironside1]

No. Hardly any laws or regs ensure compliance. I can't think of any, can you? Not sure why that needs mentioning.

So do we stop trying? I can tell you if you let the Marekt freely regulate itself it won't be ethical. Anytime you have human involvement with a bottom line involved without rules it with get ugly.

 

[KitingHigh]

Note that he isn't really arguing against regulation. While he is willing to let restaurants opt out of sanitation regulations, he wants to impose disclosure regulations.

A real libertarian would just let the market decide. No regs, no disclosure, no government inspections, no government warnings about health hazards.

Just think how much better off we'd all be.

Well, since the real democrats want us to live in communist USSR conditions and the real republicans want the church to have complete control over our lives, letting the marketplace decide is undoubtedly the best option.

 

[What Would Jesus Do?]

So do we stop trying? I can tell you if you let the Marekt freely regulate itself it won't be ethical. Anytime you have human involvement with a bottom line involved without rules it with get ugly.

Exactly.

I suspect that sometimes over-regulation may be a legitimate complaint and we should address it. But under-regulation isn't the solution.

Arguing against regulations because they don't ensure compliance is letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

 

[TexMichFan]

People don't read the fine print.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Note that he isn't really arguing against regulation. While he is willing to let restaurants opt out of sanitation regulations, he wants to impose disclosure regulations.

A real libertarian would just let the market decide. No regs, no disclosure, no government inspections, no government warnings about health hazards.

Just think how much better off we'd all be.

You act like there would be no oversight if government wasn't there. As it is now, chain restaurants hire a private enterprise to come in and regulate them, and the private enterprise, say ECOLAB, is far more strict than the health inspector is. So, why do we need a health inspector again?

 

[The Tradition]

How did Chipotle happen with all these dedicated regulators keeping us safe?

Heh... that would actually be a pretty good meme: "Chipotle Happens"

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Do you trust government regulators to keep us safe? Does it let you sleep better at night knowing some bureaucrat is assigned to regulate nearly every facet of our lives? Do you have any data showing that regulation actually accomplishes anything other than providing a revenue stream for the government?

I trust them more then I trust letting the free market decide that's for certain.

Neither one is perfect, but when the free market was deciding a lot more people where being hurt or killed due to faulty and dangerous products.

 

[KitingHigh]

You act like there would be no oversight if government wasn't there. As it is now, chain restaurants hire a private enterprise to come in and regulate them, and the private enterprise, say ECOLAB, is far more strict than the health inspector is. So, why do we need a health inspector again?

Scuba diving and Sky diving are not government regulated and they do just fine. Even parasail companies are doing a good job of self regulating without government intervention.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

How did Chipotle happen with all these dedicated regulators keeping us safe?

Heh... that would actually be a pretty good meme: "Chipotle Happens"

And that was going to be my next point. You know pretty much what day and time the health inspector comes, because they always come at the same day/time. It's easy to work around that if you really wanted to. However, a company like ECOLAB comes at different times and you never really know when that is going to be.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Scuba diving and Sky diving are not government regulated and they do just fine. Even parasail companies are doing a good job of self regulating without government intervention.

That's because companies have a built in interest of keeping people alive and healthy.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

You act like there would be no oversight if government wasn't there. As it is now, chain restaurants hire a private enterprise to come in and regulate them, and the private enterprise, say ECOLAB, is far more strict than the health inspector is. So, why do we need a health inspector again?

If that's true then why do I occasionally hear about those same chain places being shut down by the health inspector.

Also I don't think that's entirely true. As a kid I worked for McDonalds for a lot of years, up until my sophmore year of college in fact. We had health inspector visits, I remember them. I never remember any private firm coming in to inspect us.

 

[theiacowtipper]

You act like there would be no oversight if government wasn't there. As it is now, chain restaurants hire a private enterprise to come in and regulate them, and the private enterprise, say ECOLAB, is far more strict than the health inspector is. So, why do we need a health inspector again?

Does every restaurant do that? If they did, it wouldn't be a problem. In fact, this happens in many, many areas of business. For example, our college program is accredited by a nationally recognized body. They inspect us every two years to ensure we follow best educational practices and are not just a diploma mill. In return, we don't have to be inspected by the state. That is a reasonable example of a partnership that can work, including in your restaurant inspection.

However, if a restaurant is not inspected by that private company, they would still be subject to a state inspection, agreed?

 

[NoleSoup4U]

If that's true then why do I occasionally hear about those same chain places being shut down by the health inspector.

Also I don't think that's entirely true. As a kid I worked for McDonalds for a lot of years, up until my sophmore year of college in fact. We had health inspector visits, I remember them. I never remember any private firm coming in to inspect us.

If they're using ECOLAB, I rather doubt they are getting shut down. Those reports get sent to corporate and therefore corporate knows exactly how clean their restaurants are being kept, long before the health inspector ever knows.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Does every restaurant do that? If they did, it wouldn't be a problem. In fact, this happens in many, many areas of business. For example, our college program is accredited by a nationally recognized body. They inspect us every two years to ensure we follow best educational practices and are not just a diploma mill. In return, we don't have to be inspected by the state. That is a reasonable example of a partnership that can work, including in your restaurant inspection.

However, if a restaurant is not inspected by that private company, they would still be subject to a state inspection, agreed?

It's an easy fix. These companies could put who was using their service on a website. You would know who uses them and who doesn't.

 

[The Tradition]

I trust them more then I trust letting the free market decide that's for certain.

Neither one is perfect, but when the free market was deciding a lot more people where being hurt or killed due to faulty and dangerous products.

We have courts for that. You're not allowed to harm others.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

And guys, you can tell how clean a restaurant is by just walking into the lobby. There is a reason why nice restaurants are so fastidious in their cleanliness. Check out the bathrooms. That is going to tell you WAY more about restaurant than some report by a health inspector.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

How did Chipotle happen with all these dedicated regulators keeping us safe?

Heh... that would actually be a pretty good meme: "Chipotle Happens"

While Chipolte was a failure with regulation remember that it's also a failure of the free market. Unless your solution is to let a few poor souls die or become extremely sick so that the rest of us can know not to eat there. I think there should be some level of inspection that tries to prevent that from happening in the first place.

So the fact that both failed in this case doesn't really help your case much. The free market is only succeeding AFTER people died. Regulators can do that too of course, everyone can do that. But the free market doesn't work BEFORE people die. Regulators can sometimes (not always) catch things before someone dies.

Unless again you think the best solution is to let a few people die and hope the media picks up on it so the rest of us know not to eat there.

Also I'm pretty sure the only way we know for sure it was the Chipotle that made people sick is regulators came in after the fact and tested the beef. With the free market deciding, who's going to test the beef?

 

[NoleSoup4U]

We have courts for that. You're not allowed to harm others.

Exactly. Why do you people think that a lack of regulations equates to "people can do whatever they want?"

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

We have courts for that. You're not allowed to harm others.

So $200,000 is a good substitute for a father,mother, brother, sister, son or daughter???

Sure you can sue them after the fact and get some compensation. But in wrongful death cases the compensation is somewhat hollow.

Would you rather have $200,000 or your child alive. I'm a father and I can tell you those two are not equal and I'd take the 2nd always. But maybe it's just because I'm biased and I've never possessed $200,000. But I doubt that. . . I really doubt that.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

While Chipolte was a failure with regulation remember that it's also a failure of the free market. Unless your solution is to let a few poor souls die or become extremely sick so that the rest of us can know not to eat there. I think there should be some level of inspection that tries to prevent that from happening in the first place.

So the fact that both failed in this case doesn't really help your case much. The free market is only succeeding AFTER people died. Regulators can do that too of course, everyone can do that. But the free market doesn't work BEFORE people die. Regulators can sometimes (not always) catch things before someone dies.

Unless again you think the best solution is to let a few people die and hope the media picks up on it so the rest of us know not to eat there.

Also I'm pretty sure the only way we know for sure it was the Chipotle that made people sick is regulators came in after the fact and tested the beef. With the free market deciding, who's going to test the beef?

Fist off, how do you even know all this? People get sick and die now, even with the health department. How would the free market be any different? In all actuality, a free market system would probably be harder on sanitation specs, or they wouldn't use them at all, in which case you would know who wasn't using them and could eat at that establishment at your own risk.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

If they're using ECOLAB, I rather doubt they are getting shut down. Those reports get sent to corporate and therefore corporate knows exactly how clean their restaurants are being kept, long before the health inspector ever knows.

And corporate isn't going to shut it down no matter how bad it is. They will likely try and reform it, but some places need to be shut down NOW.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

So $200,000 is a good substitute for a father,mother, brother, sister, son or daughter???

Sure you can sue them after the fact and get some compensation. But in wrongful death cases the compensation is somewhat hollow.

Would you rather have $200,000 or your child alive. I'm a father and I can tell you those two are not equal and I'd take the 2nd always. But maybe it's just because I'm biased and I've never possessed $200,000. But I doubt that. . . I really doubt that.

This happens now. Why are you blaming it on the free market?

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

Fist off, how do you even know all this? People get sick and die now, even with the health department. How would the free market be any different? In all actuality, a free market system would probably be harder on sanitation specs, or they wouldn't use them at all, in which case you would know who wasn't using them and could eat at that establishment at your own risk.

Sanitization at least the obvious things that you can see wasn't the issue at Chipotle. It was I believe the source of their beef.

The free market isn't going to catch these things til after people die.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

And corporate isn't going to shut it down no matter how bad it is. They will likely try and reform it, but some places need to be shut down NOW.

You don't understand, it would never get that bad. The GM would be fired long before it ever got that bad. It's in a corporate restaurants best interest not to kill, or make sick, their patrons, as it's not exactly good for business.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Sanitization at least the obvious things that you can see wasn't the issue at Chipotle. It was I believe the source of their beef.

The free market isn't going to catch these things til after people die.

We aren't catching it now.

 

[The Tradition]

Exactly. Why do you people think that a lack of regulations equates to "people can do whatever they want?"

Misplaced trust in government, I guess.

I wonder how many restaurant inspectors are corrupt in this country? I'm sure that there are places where restaurant owners "grease the palms" of the inspectors to get a good report.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

This happens now. Why are you blaming it on the free market?

Because health inspectors often catch things and nip them in the bud BEFORE people die. No they don't catch it every time but it does happen. On the other hand the free market can not possibly catch anything until after people die and the media picks up the story.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Because health inspectors often catch things and nip them in the bud BEFORE people die. No they don't catch it every time but it does happen. On the other hand the free market can not possibly catch anything until after people die and the media picks up the story.

So do private enterprises, only the private enterprises do it better.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

We aren't catching it now.

So you have never heard of a food place being shut down. Because in my area I remember at least 2 in the last couple years.

 

[The Tradition]

And guys, you can tell how clean a restaurant is by just walking into the lobby. There is a reason why nice restaurants are so fastidious in their cleanliness. Check out the bathrooms. That is going to tell you WAY more about restaurant than some report by a health inspector.

Actually, I've found the best food comes from some of the sketchiest places. BBQ places and fish camps are especially reversely correlated with this.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

So you have never heard of a food place being shut down. Because in my area I remember at least 2 in the last couple years.

Sure, but those places were already known to be disgusting places to eat. Look, the bottom line is that health inspectors are far more lax than private enterprises are. I've already stated how you could tell which restaurants used these services and who didn't.

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

So do private enterprises, only the private enterprises do it better.

Based on what evidence? They don't have the power to shut the place down. They can only tell the owners that there are problems.

And if these private companies are doing such a good job for us, why does it even matter that we have a few health inspectors check the places?

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Actually, I've found the best food comes from some of the sketchiest places. BBQ places and fish camps are especially reversely correlated with this.

Tasting good and being healthy are two different things, but I will say that it won't always mean that the kitchen is dirty, it's just a bad sign, which is why most places bust their employees balls to keep the place clean.

 

[NoleSoup4U]

Based on what evidence? They don't have the power to shut the place down. They can only tell the owners that there are problems.

And if these private companies are doing such a good job for us, why does it even matter that we have a few health inspectors check the places?

They have the power to get the GM fired, and that's even better. Go ask anyone that has dealt with one of these private businesses and they'll tell you the same thing. Their standards are much more anal than the health inspector's.