The Army Black Hawk helicopter was AT LEAST 100 feet above its permitted altitude (there is a mandated 200-foot ceiling for helicopters in that area)

[Franisdaman]

Good story from the Associated Press (linked at end of this post). And, as you will see, airspace around Washington D.C. is about to get even more congested.

Some excerpts:

Planes are often flying directly over the route used by military and law enforcement helicopters transiting the nation’s capital.

The Army Black Hawk helicopter was 100 feet above its permitted altitude (there is a mandated 200-foot ceiling for helicopters).

It is often difficult for the helicopter pilot to pick out a jetliner against the lights of the city and cars on a nearby bridge. A retired US Army National Guard pilot discussed how he once lost sight of a landing airplane, and immediately descended, skimming just 50 feet over the water to ensure the descending jetliner would pass over him. Experts said this is what may have happened with the crew of the Army helicopter Wednesday shortly before 9 p.m. as they flew south along the Potomac and collided with an American Airlines Flight 5342 landing at Runway 3-3.

“Even if everybody is doing what they’re supposed to be doing, you’ve only got a few hundred feet separation between aircraft coming in to land and the many helicopters along that route,” said Jim Brauchle, a former U.S. Air Force navigator and aviation attorney. “It doesn’t leave a whole lot margin of error.”

“You’ve got two large airports. You’ve got multiple restricted areas. You’ve got altitude restrictions. Routine restrictions, and a lot of air traffic,” he said. “There’s a lot going on in a tight area.”

Robert Clifford, an aviation attorney, said the U.S. government should temporarily halt military helicopter flights in the airspace used by commercial airlines near Reagan National.

“I can’t get over how stunningly clear it is that this was a preventable crash and this should never, ever have occurred,” Clifford said. “There have been discussions for some time about the congestion associated with that and the potential for disaster. And we saw it come home last night.”

Airspace is about to get more congested in the wake of Congress’ decision last year to ease restrictions that had limited the airport to nonstop flights within 1,250 miles (2,012 kilometers) of Washington, with few exceptions.


The Full Story:

Pilots have long worried about DC's complex airspace contributing to a catastrophe

The airspace around Washington, D.C., is congested and complex — a combination aviation experts have long worried could lead to catastrophe.

apnews.com

 

[Franisdaman]

looking more & more like helicopter pilot error

 

[NorthEndzoneCrew]

Yeah, sure seems like the helicopter pilot may be the primary cause here.

 

[Franisdaman]

The normal air traffic controller staffing for that airport: 1 controller for planes, 1 controller for the helicopters

At the time of the crash: 1 controller was doing both. But, as the story linked above stated, that happens when traffic slows down at night, when a controller goes for a break, etc.

Just a horrible, horrible accident.

 

[Franisdaman]

Yeah, sure seems like the helicopter pilot may be the primary cause here.

Air traffic is bad in that area as it is and it's only going to get worse in the wake of Congress’ decision last year to ease restrictions that had limited the airport to nonstop flights within 1,250 miles (2,012 kilometers) of Washington, with few exceptions.

 

[The Tradition]

Air traffic is bad in that area as it is and it's only going to get worse in the wake of Congress’ decision last year to ease restrictions that had limited the airport to nonstop flights within 1,250 miles (2,012 kilometers) of Washington, with few exceptions.

What's the exception? A flight with Nancy Pelosi on it?

 

[Hoosierhawkeye]

The normal air traffic controller staffing for that airport: 1 controller for planes, 1 controller for the helicopters

At the time of the crash: 1 controller was doing both. But, as the story linked above stated, that happens when traffic slows down at night, when a controller goes for a break, etc.

Just a horrible, horrible accident.

If there is any ATC error in this blame will likely fall to trying to make 1 controller do 2 jobs.

That is assuming that Trump doesn't threaten to fire the whole ATSB unless they write down the reason as being DEI.

 

[Franisdaman]

What's the exception? A flight with Nancy Pelosi on it?

The flight that crashed Wednesday was not part of the expansion. It was added by American Airlines in January of last year amid a push by Kansas lawmakers for more service between Reagan National and Wichita.

Flights to cities like San Francisco and Seattle will be part of the additional air traffic that is to come.

From the linked article:

As authorities piece together the nation’s deadliest U.S. airline crash since 2001, the tragedy has raised new concerns about the specific dangers at Reagan National, which has seen a series of near-misses in recent years. Experts and some lawmakers said they are concerned that the airspace is about to get more congested in the wake of Congress’ decision last year to ease restrictions that had limited the airport to nonstop flights within 1,250 miles (2,012 kilometers) of Washington, with few exceptions.

Lawmakers enabled airlines to launch new routes to destinations like Seattle and San Francisco. The plan fueled intense debate about congestion versus convenience, with some legislators heralding new flights to their home states while others warned of potential tragedy. The flight that crashed Wednesday was not part of the expansion. It was added by American Airlines in January of last year amid a push by Kansas lawmakers for more service between Reagan National and Wichita.


When you get a second, read the whole story here:

Pilots have long worried about DC's complex airspace contributing to a catastrophe

The airspace around Washington, D.C., is congested and complex — a combination aviation experts have long worried could lead to catastrophe.

apnews.com

 

[Franisdaman]

If there is any ATC error in this blame will likely fall to trying to make 1 controller do 2 jobs.

That is assuming that Trump doesn't threaten to fire the whole ATSB unless they write down the reason as being DEI.

From the story it appears to be the norm to have one ATC at night since air traffic goes down significantly.

It's absolutely disgusting and unacceptable that the POTUS made this political. But, sadly, no one is surprised.

 

[Franisdaman]

On the Today Show they just said the black box will give the exact altitude of the helicopter. From the story in the 1st post, the helicopter was 100 feet above the permitted altitude.

 

[Franisdaman]

Yeah, sure seems like the helicopter pilot may be the primary cause here.

Officials also tell NPR that the Black Hawk was supposed to be flying at a maximum of 200 feet, though sources say it was flying at least 100 feet higher. All requested anonymity given the sensitivity of the investigation.

"There is a low, prescribed altitude for the helicopter to fly at in that location on the route," Bowman said, "to ensure sufficient and safe distance between the helicopter and aircraft landing or taking off from Reagan. If the helicopter was above the prescribed altitude, that could be a leading cause of the collision. That will be a key focus of the investigation."

https://www.npr.org/2025/01/30/nx-s1-5281246/pentagon-jet-military-helicopter-collision#:~:text=Officials%20also%20tell%20NPR%20that,the%20sensitivity%20of%20the%20investigation.

 

[B1GDeal]

Everything I've seen looks like pilot error on the helicopter's part. ATC saw and notified them several times and the copter said they took responsibility and had visual. They made the error.

 

[Finance85]

Good thread. It's on the helicopter to avoid airline flights.

 

[Franisdaman]

Everything I've seen looks like pilot error on the helicopter's part. ATC saw and notified them several times and the copter said they took responsibility and had visual. They made the error.

it was a training flight, correct?

you'd think the instructor would know that they were well above 200 feet

 

[B1GDeal]

it was a training flight, correct?

you'd think the instructor would know that they were above 200 feet

Won't know exactly on their thoughts on visual, altitude and such until black box is reviewed.

 

[Franisdaman]

Won't know exactly on their thoughts on visual, altitude and such until black box is reviewed.

it will be interesting to see if the crash could have been avoided if they had stayed below 200 feet

 

[BubsFinn]

Given how frequently Army helicopters crash into one another, I firmly believe the pilot of the helicopter is 100% responsible for this tragedy.

 

[jamesvanderwulf]

If there is any ATC error in this blame will likely fall to trying to make 1 controller do 2 jobs.

That is assuming that Trump doesn't threaten to fire the whole ATSB unless they write down the reason as being DEI.

There’s no ATC .error. His instructions were clear. The copter is at fault. Leave your TDS out of this factual conversation…

 

[Scott559]

it was a training flight, correct?

you'd think the instructor would know that they were well above 200 feet

if they have voice recordings from the Blackhawk cockpit it will be interesting to hear the interaction between the pilot and the instructor.

 

[Franisdaman]

Good thread. It's on the helicopter to avoid airline flights.

and stay low

 

[MitchLL]

What's the exception? A flight with Nancy Pelosi on it?

Don't take this wrong, but you're a fvcking idiot!

 

[BlIIlken2]

The pressure that night was rising rapidly. Could be something as simple as the altimeter setting they had when departing was not updated to DCAs local one or it was just old. Usually for commercial airlines we spend so little time below 18k feet it doesn’t matter (everyone above 18k sets to one standard setting for perfect spacing flying around high, on arrival you set it to the local airports which is updated hourly or with big weather changes).

It looks like it rose sharply after 6pm local. Just .10 inhg higher actual then what they used would cause a reading 100 feet off. So what the chopper thought was 200 feet was really 300 feet. This doesn’t explain how the chopper didn’t see the impending impact and ATC scope would be able to say their actual altitude and give them the correct updated altimeter (which you always receive if under 18k everytime you talk to a new controller.)

Very small room for error with the altitudes.

TLDR version: That photo shows the idea, albeit backwards. Pressure rising, they would’ve been flying actually higher than indicating with lower pressure altimeter setting

 

[BlIIlken2]

Also here is the altimeter chart that night. Look after 1800

 

[WadeLookingbill]

The pressure that night was rising rapidly. Could be something as simple as the altimeter setting they had when departing was not updated to DCAs local one or it was just old. Usually for commercial airlines we spend so little time below 18k feet it doesn’t matter (everyone above 18k sets to one standard setting for perfect spacing flying around high, on arrival you set it to the local airports which is updated hourly or with big weather changes).

It looks like it rose sharply after 6pm local. Just .10 inhg higher actual then what they used would cause a reading 100 feet off. So what the chopper thought was 200 feet was really 300 feet. This doesn’t explain how the chopper didn’t see the impending impact and ATC scope would be able to say their actual altitude and give them the correct updated altimeter (which you always receive if under 18k everytime you talk to a new controller.)

Very small room for error with the altitudes.

TLDR version: That photo shows the idea, albeit backwards. Pressure rising, they would’ve been flying actually higher than indicating with lower pressure altimeter setting

This is the answer, our resident pilot’s post should be pinned on every one of these similar threads.

 

[binsfeldcyhawk2]

Given how frequently Army helicopters crash into one another, I firmly believe the pilot of the helicopter is 100% responsible for this tragedy.

At the end of the day I think they'll find multiple F ups.

Certainly looks like the Helicopter is the primary culprit at this point.

ATC will probably be faulted for not recognizing they were converging at the same altitude and tell the Helicopter pilot to clear the approach path.

There was also a change of runway pretty late in the process for the airliner that may come into play.

To say the Helicopter was 100% fault at this point is probably premature.

 

[eb05]

it was a training flight, correct?

you'd think the instructor would know that they were well above 200 feet

training is a broad term in the military. it doesn’t always mean instructional. i would say it’s more in line with the word practice

 

[tumorboy]

At the end of the day I think they'll find multiple F ups.

Certainly looks like the Helicopter is the primary culprit at this point.

ATC will probably be faulted for not recognizing they were converging at the same altitude and tell the Helicopter pilot to clear the approach path.

There was also a change of runway pretty late in the process for the airliner that may come into play.

To say the Helicopter was 100% fault at this point is probably premature.

Ultimately think it’s going to come back to having too much traffic at this airport. And the Helo should be conducting training elsewhere.

 

[DooBi]

The pressure that night was rising rapidly. Could be something as simple as the altimeter setting they had when departing was not updated to DCAs local one or it was just old. Usually for commercial airlines we spend so little time below 18k feet it doesn’t matter (everyone above 18k sets to one standard setting for perfect spacing flying around high, on arrival you set it to the local airports which is updated hourly or with big weather changes).

It looks like it rose sharply after 6pm local. Just .10 inhg higher actual then what they used would cause a reading 100 feet off. So what the chopper thought was 200 feet was really 300 feet. This doesn’t explain how the chopper didn’t see the impending impact and ATC scope would be able to say their actual altitude and give them the correct updated altimeter (which you always receive if under 18k everytime you talk to a new controller.)

Very small room for error with the altitudes.

TLDR version: That photo shows the idea, albeit backwards. Pressure rising, they would’ve been flying actually higher than indicating with lower pressure altimeter setting

That's very interesting. I did not know that.

 

[IIowaFarmBoy]

Our system is 100 percent at fault. I had no idea that ATC still uses cardboard pieces to track flights.

My DJI Mavic 3 M warns me about aircraft in the area including distance and altitude. Obviously, not the same, but when I get that warning, given I can't fly over 400 feet (no idea what drone altitude restrictions there are) my role is to drop down, but crop dusters often fly when not spraying below 400 feet which, is in violation of FAA regs). I don't understand why the helo was above the restricted 200 feet for the helos there.

My point is that airports are outdated. Aircraft like the jet involved are like using cars without warning of cars beside you.

What is puzzling is that in recent ATC audio of the situation, the helo is talking to a female (sounds like the one that says OH MY) and asks the helo just before the crash "Do You See It" followed by Oh My.

Why are we using outdated systems in a chaotic airspace.

Interesting read here: https://mishtalk.com/economics/dece...urgent-need-to-modernize-air-traffic-systems/

 

[Franisdaman]

Given how frequently Army helicopters crash into one another, I firmly believe the pilot of the helicopter is 100% responsible for this tragedy.

don't they have frequent mechanical issues, too?

 

[peacehawk]

Was the Army pilot a dwarf?

 

[TJ8869]

I haven’t followed this story as much as most posters, so I apologize if this has already been suggested.

I’ve seen it mentioned that it’s sometimes difficult for pilots to distinguish the lights of other aircraft from building lights and lights from vehicles on the bridge.

What about using drones as an airborne marker designating the landing/takeoff paths? Have the drones light up a specific color so there is no confusion about what they are and what they indicate. Helicopters stay the hell away from the drones and there won’t be any more collisions.

 

[QChawks]

probably should have been done a long time ago

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

probably should have been done a long time ago

View embedded media

Reading more about this and all the past near-misses, it sounds like the military needs to find another place to practice/fly, and if that’s not possible, Reagan airport needs to be closed.

 

[QChawks]

Reading more about this and all the past near-misses, it sounds like the military needs to find another place to practice/fly, and if that’s not possible, Reagan airport needs to be closed.

Here in the Quad Cities the national guard does sanuk helicopter test flights almost daily, but they use the smaller Davenport airport and not Moline International.

Does DC not have other airport options than Reagon?

 

[95Hawk]

Here in the Quad Cities the national guard does sanuk helicopter test flights almost daily, but they use the smaller Davenport airport and not Moline International.

Does DC not have other airport options than Reagon?

There are at least 13 heliports in the DC area: some government, some military, and some private (like hospitals). They are constantly taking off, circling, routing, and landing in that air space.

 

[Formerly Rockymtnole]

Here in the Quad Cities the national guard does sanuk helicopter test flights almost daily, but they use the smaller Davenport airport and not Moline International.

Does DC not have other airport options than Reagon?

Dulles, but it’s an hour out of the city center.

Reagan is incredibly convenient. Just seems crazy to me to have helicopters crossing landing patterns at low level, and relying on “Do you have the plane in sight?” to avoid crashes.

 

[Rifler]

It does seem reasonable to move the military helicopter activity away from this largely commercial airport...

 

[Franisdaman]

There’s no ATC .error. His instructions were clear. The copter is at fault.

Yeah, I am afraid the copter was flying too high.

You'd think that there would be some kind of warning alarm on the chopper if it was flying above 200 feet...or that the instructor would be closely monitoring the altitude....but who knows.....

From all reports, the passenger plane was doing a normal landing.

 

[Franisdaman]