You mean it won't be confirmed. The FAA and DOD already know.
The Army Black Hawk helicopter was AT LEAST 100 feet above its permitted altitude (there is a mandated 200-foot ceiling for helicopters in that area)
- Thread starter Franisdaman
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I was listening to the report yesterday from a retired pilot that had flow that (helicopter flight) many times and he made an interesting comment. He said the flight was labeled as not just training but the pilot was being tested. And during the tests, the instructors will make the pilots do things to create weird conditions and stress, just to see how they react. If true, this could have been part of the instructors test and the pilot reacted incorrectly.
That is absolutely amazing,.. How does this Blackhawk pilot not have a visual on the incoming jet?
Putting a pilot through a stress test as they pass through the landing path of incoming planes would be very poor judgment on the part of the instructor IMO.
Quite literally the only explanation is they were wearing night vision and the field of vision was obscured. The other tough thing to understand, is even if the helo was 100 feet lower as required, that would still be wayyyyyy too close for comfort.
This video reinforces my thought the final report will show something like: helo pilot in "training" wearing night vision obscuring vision, which contributed to not seeing the CRJ at her 12 and also misidentifying the aircraft identified by ATC, along with an altimeter that had not been adjusted for the current conditions so altitude slightly off, and finally add in the "understaffed" ATC (who possibly would have done a better job of confirming the helo's visual via heading/vector and would have also been more assertive with instructions when the "CA" was indicated on radar).
Just a series of unfortunate events/circumstances.
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there's gotta be warning systems on the helicopter, right?
note that 200 is the MAXIMUM altitude; from reports, the helicopter was well over 300 feet
But, like Wade said, reports are the plane was at 375-400 feet. I don’t think there’s any safe distance below that - meaning, seems to me helicopters shouldn’t be anywhere near a landing plane or flight path regardless of altitude.
They could have their altimeter on the wrong setting, or the pressure changed a lot from when they initially set it. So they'd think they were at 200ft, but in reality were higher up.
I also doubt Blackhawks have radar altimeters that use radio waves to determine distance from ground.
They already have the radar and the coms between ATC and the bird, but the flight recorder box should have additional recordings between those inside the bird too.
Yeah, they have warning systems, but you have to assume they are adjusted/reduced/maybe even subconsciously ignored when they are flying (1) at that low altitude, (2) that close to the airfield, and (3) in very congested airspace. Otherwise you'd have alarms going at all times when flying that corridor.
If night vision was being used it can be like having blinders on. You do not have much peripheral vision. If they were looking strait ahead at the plane in the distance and ready to maneuver based on its position they likely did not see the other plane to their left (east) coming in to land and flew right into the side of the CRJ.
Yeah, the frustrating part is that is a known risk of night vision, so if the helo and ATC are relying on visual to navigate such a congested airspace and cross a flight/landing path, that's just not good enough. You can't have "blind spots" in that scenario.
I can see that,.. But everything I've heard indicates that it would not be normal military procedure for night vision to be deployed while still in the vicinity of the airport and downtown DC...
The flight recorder from the copter will give the details. It's clear that they flew into the landing jet. The coms between the pilot and trainer will be interesting.
definitely not much room for error if the chopper is at 175 and the plane is at 375
Wearing night vision goggles and background city building lights blending in with the plane lights.
One expert quoted in this article said that if the chopper had been at 200 feet, there wouldn't have been an issue because the plane typically would've been 400 to 500 feet off the ground.
Data from FlightRadar24, which tracks and records aircraft data for most flights across the U.S., showed the helicopter's last estimated altitude was about 400 feet when it crashed.
The jet's altitude was about 375 to 400 feet, according to data from FlightAware and FlightRadar24.
Steven B. Wallace, a former director of accident investigations for the Federal Aviation Administration, told CBS News he believes investigators will direct attention to the altitude of the Black Hawk.
"I don't want to speculate on the cause, but I can speculate what's going through the mind of the investigators," Wallace said. "I think that is very likely going to be the focus."
The Army helicopter's deviation above the flight ceiling is one of several similar near collisions involving helicopters at Reagan National that date back more than a decade.
(1) A near midair collision between an airplane and a helicopter in July 2015 occurred 400 feet off the ground on approach to the same runway being used in Wednesday's crash – Runway 33 — according to a CBS News Data Team review of anonymous reports to NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System.
The pilot's report said the aircraft "came within very close contact of another aircraft."
"This occurred about 400 feet off the ground to the point where the pilot monitoring had to take the controls to make a correction in order to prevent it from becoming a midair collision," the 2015 report said.
(2) Two years earlier, in May of 2013, a pilot reported problems with a helicopter while circling to land on Runway 33. That is a shorter runway intended for smaller aircraft, like American Airlines 5342. Pilots who land there told CBS News they want to be at the "floor," or lowest altitude during their approach because they need to hit the beginning of the runway to have maximum distance to stop.
CBS News' review of the NASA safety data identified at least 9 near midair collisions at the airport since 2005, including three involving helicopters.
Data from FlightRadar24, which tracks and records aircraft data for most flights across the U.S., showed the helicopter's last estimated altitude was about 400 feet when it crashed.
The jet's altitude was about 375 to 400 feet, according to data from FlightAware and FlightRadar24.
Steven B. Wallace, a former director of accident investigations for the Federal Aviation Administration, told CBS News he believes investigators will direct attention to the altitude of the Black Hawk.
"I don't want to speculate on the cause, but I can speculate what's going through the mind of the investigators," Wallace said. "I think that is very likely going to be the focus."
The Army helicopter's deviation above the flight ceiling is one of several similar near collisions involving helicopters at Reagan National that date back more than a decade.
(1) A near midair collision between an airplane and a helicopter in July 2015 occurred 400 feet off the ground on approach to the same runway being used in Wednesday's crash – Runway 33 — according to a CBS News Data Team review of anonymous reports to NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System.
The pilot's report said the aircraft "came within very close contact of another aircraft."
"This occurred about 400 feet off the ground to the point where the pilot monitoring had to take the controls to make a correction in order to prevent it from becoming a midair collision," the 2015 report said.
(2) Two years earlier, in May of 2013, a pilot reported problems with a helicopter while circling to land on Runway 33. That is a shorter runway intended for smaller aircraft, like American Airlines 5342. Pilots who land there told CBS News they want to be at the "floor," or lowest altitude during their approach because they need to hit the beginning of the runway to have maximum distance to stop.
CBS News' review of the NASA safety data identified at least 9 near midair collisions at the airport since 2005, including three involving helicopters.
Experts ask why Black Hawk helicopter may have been flying above allowed altitude before crash
This data point is one of several key mysteries investigators are exploring as they seek to explain what caused the nation's worst air disaster in more than a decade, aviation experts said.
www.cbsnews.com
The black box from the Army Black Hawk helicopter that collided with a commercial jetliner and crashed into the Potomac River has been recovered, investigators announced. They are reviewing that flight data recorder along with two recovered earlier from the jet.
The helicopter’s data, contained in a single black box, was at NTSB headquarters and appears to be undamaged.
NTSB investigations normally take at least a year, though investigators hope to have a preliminary report within 30 days.
Military aircraft frequently conduct such flights in and around the capital to practice routes they would fly if key government officials had to be quickly moved during a major catastrophe or attack.
The remains of 41 people had been pulled from the river as of Friday afternoon, including 28 that had been positively identified.
Wreckage of the plane’s fuselage will probably have to be pulled from the water to get all the bodies. It was unclear how long the recovery operation would take.
The helicopter’s data, contained in a single black box, was at NTSB headquarters and appears to be undamaged.
NTSB investigations normally take at least a year, though investigators hope to have a preliminary report within 30 days.
Military aircraft frequently conduct such flights in and around the capital to practice routes they would fly if key government officials had to be quickly moved during a major catastrophe or attack.
The remains of 41 people had been pulled from the river as of Friday afternoon, including 28 that had been positively identified.
Wreckage of the plane’s fuselage will probably have to be pulled from the water to get all the bodies. It was unclear how long the recovery operation would take.
‘Heartbreaking’ search for those killed in DC air crash as army helicopter's black box recovered
Investigators have announced that the black box from the Army Black Hawk helicopter that collided with a commercial jetliner has been recovered.
apnews.com
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That redundancy is by design and not simply old fashioned. If there is ever a catastrophic failure of the air traffic network every plane is accounted for and under the control of whoever is in physical possession of that flight strip.
Yes, but we are really lacking in technology. When the controller said something like, Do YOU SEE IT (not exact), it was a disaster waiting to happen. As I menioned, my Mavic 3M warns me and shows me where nearby aircraft are and when objects are close.
From tonight's 5:30 pm CT NBC News broadcast:
Preliminary analysis shows that the helicopter was at 300 feet or more at the time of the crash (there is a mandated 200 foot ceiling for helicopters in that area)
Preliminary analysis shows that the helicopter was at 300 feet or more at the time of the crash (there is a mandated 200 foot ceiling for helicopters in that area)
The big takeaway for me was the discrepancy in the black box info from the Jet that the NTSB made pretty clear they trusted and the radar info shown to the ATC, Impact at 325 feet give or take 25 feet vs ATC showing chopper at 200 feet. That seems pretty significant in that high traffic area.
too many lights
but if he had been flying below 200 feet he likely would have avoided a collision
Another contributing factor could be that when a helicopter is moving forward the nose pitches slightly down. If the plane is coming from a position above the helicopter it might not have entered their field of vision.
According to the conversations between the ATC and the chopper, the chopper pilot had the aircraft in sight and asked for visual separation...meaning they would route around it visually.
As the two aircraft get closer to each other, an air traffic controller checks in with the military helicopter, asking the pilot, "PAT25, do you have the CRJ in sight?" The air traffic controller then tells the helicopter pilot to "pass behind" the American Airlines jet.
The helicopter pilot checks in, saying that the plane is in sight and again requests "visual separation," which is granted. But the two aircraft continue on the same path. Seconds later, gasps and shouts can be heard from the air traffic control tower as the helicopter and jet collide.
Obviously, whatever they were looking at, it wasn't the airplane.
As the two aircraft get closer to each other, an air traffic controller checks in with the military helicopter, asking the pilot, "PAT25, do you have the CRJ in sight?" The air traffic controller then tells the helicopter pilot to "pass behind" the American Airlines jet.
The helicopter pilot checks in, saying that the plane is in sight and again requests "visual separation," which is granted. But the two aircraft continue on the same path. Seconds later, gasps and shouts can be heard from the air traffic control tower as the helicopter and jet collide.
Obviously, whatever they were looking at, it wasn't the airplane.
