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The Asterisk on Kamala Harris’s Poll Numbers

binsfeldcyhawk2

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Oct 13, 2006
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Pollsters think they’ve learned from their mistakes in 2020. Of course, they thought that last time too.

One month since she entered the presidential race, Kamala Harris has a small but clear lead over Donald Trump, if the polls are to be trusted. But after the past two presidential elections, trusting the polls might feel like a very strange thing to do.

The 2016 election lives in popular memory as perhaps the most infamous polling miss of all time, but 2020 was quietly even worse. The polls four years ago badly underestimated Trump’s support even as they correctly forecast a Joe Biden win. A comprehensive postmortem by the American Association for Public Opinion Research concluded that 2020 polls were the least accurate in decades, overstating Biden’s advantage by an average of 3.9 percentage points nationally and 4.3 percentage points at the state level over the final two weeks of the election. (In 2016, by contrast, national polling predicted Hillary Clinton’s popular-vote margin quite accurately.) According to The New York Times, Biden led by 10 points in Wisconsin but won it by less than 1 point; he led Michigan by 8 and won by 3; he led in Pennsylvania by 5 and won by about 1. As of this writing, Harris is up in all three states, but by less than Biden was. A 2020-size error would mean that she’s actually down—and poised to lose the Electoral College.

The pollsters know they messed up in 2020. They are cautiously optimistic that they’ve learned from their mistakes. Of course, they thought that last time too.

How did the polls get worse from 2016 to 2020, with everyone watching? In the aftermath of Trump’s surprise 2016 victory, the public-opinion-research industry concluded that the problem was educational polarization. If pollsters had made a point of including enough white people without college degrees in their samples, they wouldn’t have underestimated Trump so badly. During the 2020 cycle, they focused on correcting that mistake.

It didn’t work. Even though polls in 2020 included more white non-college-educated voters, they turned out to be disproportionately the white non-college-educated voters who preferred Biden. The new consensus is that Republican voters are less likely to respond to polls in the first place, even controlling for education level. (To put it more nerdily, partisan preference correlates independently with willingness to take a poll, at least when Trump is on the ballot.) Don Levy, the director of the Siena College Research Institute, which conducts polls on behalf of The New York Times, calls the phenomenon “anti-establishment response bias.” The more someone distrusts mainstream institutions, including the media and pollsters, the more likely they are to vote for Trump.

 
Yep. I’m no Trump fan, but it is just amazing to me that all of the news says he’s down bigly. This will not be a cake walk for Harris and she should not expect victory. All of this poll talk just smells like wishful thinking by the press more than anything else. Reminds me of 2016 way too much, Hillary was supposed to coast to victory.

Now the question is, why do the polls underestimate Trump more than any other candidate? A theory I have is that there’s a combo of a few things going on.
  1. Polls aren’t querying the types of people that are hardcore Trump lovers as they are in poorer and/or more rural areas.
  2. Polls are querying a disproportionate amount of city-living voters.
  3. Trump lovers aren’t responding to polls because they are either anti-establishment or just not trusting of them.
  4. There are a lot of non-Trump loving independents or Republicans that aren’t willing to publicly admit to voting for Trump, but do it when they get to the private voting booth.
  5. Some other bias in the ways the polls are administered.
Are any of those at play? Something else?
 
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Yep. I’m no Trump fan, but it is just amazing to me that all of the news says he’s down bigly. This will not be a cake walk for Harris and she should not expect victory. All of this poll talk just smells like wishful thinking by the press more than anything else. Reminds me of 2016 way too much, Hillary was supposed to coast to victory.

Now the question is, why do the polls underestimate Trump more than any other candidate? A theory I have is that there’s a combo of a few things going on.
  1. Polls aren’t querying the types of people that are hardcore Trump lovers as they are in poorer and/or more rural areas.
  2. Polls are querying a disproportionate amount of city-living voters.
  3. Trump lovers aren’t responding to polls because they are either anti-establishment or just not trusting of them.
  4. There are a lot of non-Trump loving independents or Republicans that aren’t willing to publicly admit to voting for Trump, but do it when they get to the private voting booth.
  5. Some other bias in the ways the polls are administered.
Are any of those at play? Something else?
I don’t think the news says Trump is down big. It is basically a dead heat with Harris slightly ahead in most polls. What the real news has been is that a month ago when Biden was still the candidate, he was free falling. Down big in all swing states and the national polls alike and spiraling down the toilet. It was looking like landslide. She completely has flipped that.

So the story is more that prior to convention, Harris is slightly ahead in national and most swing state polls whereas if Biden was still in I feel he would be down double digits in national polls and many swing state polls.
 
Now the question is, why do the polls underestimate Trump more than any other candidate? A theory I have is that there’s a combo of a few things going on.
  1. Polls aren’t querying the types of people that are hardcore Trump lovers as they are in poorer and/or more rural areas.
  2. Polls are querying a disproportionate amount of city-living voters.
  3. Trump lovers aren’t responding to polls because they are either anti-establishment or just not trusting of them.
  4. There are a lot of non-Trump loving independents or Republicans that aren’t willing to publicly admit to voting for Trump, but do it when they get to the private voting booth.
  5. Some other bias in the ways the polls are administered.
Are any of those at play? Something else?
That's the exact question that OP's article gets into. They conclude that The more someone distrusts mainstream institutions, including the media and pollsters, the more likely they are to vote for Trump.
 
The double asterisk is the enthusiasm and unification for the 2024 Democrat nominee is way way higher than last two elections while the enthusiasm for Trump is clearly lower than last two elections. The turnout will be extremely high for those voting for Harris.
I read that the viewership for the DNC was down 22% from 2020... tell me more about enthusiasm...
 
There are so many factors at play I don’t know how pollsters can account for all of it. Major increases in Hispanic population, the greying of America - offset by the oldest baby boomers now dying off, how mobilized is Gen Z to vote, never Trumper Republicans, and so on.

Personally I never respond to cold calls, random texts or random emails. How do they reach these people? I just don’t know how they find a statically significant, truly representative sample in each battleground state to say with assuredness how this thing will play out.

My gut tells me it is a very close race and if Kamala can keep this up, plus get more specifics on policy, it is hers for the taking.
 
Assuming a close contest in the anticipated battleground states, campaign field operations will be critical to determining the outcome. In that regard (and thanks to Joe Biden), the Harris/Volz campaign is presently dwarfing Trump/Vance.
 
There are so many factors at play I don’t know how pollsters can account for all of it. Major increases in Hispanic population, the greying of America - offset by the oldest baby boomers now dying off, how mobilized is Gen Z to vote, never Trumper Republicans, and so on.

Personally I never respond to cold calls, random texts or random emails. How do they reach these people? I just don’t know how they find a statically significant, truly representative sample in each battleground state to say with assuredness how this thing will play out.

My gut tells me it is a very close race and if Kamala can keep this up, plus get more specifics on policy, it is hers for the taking.
This. It is going to be close, in large part due to the got dam electoral college. If Trump wins, the fact that in only one election since 1992 the Republicans have won the general election total just one time will remain true. That is the most frustrating part. Biden freaking won by 4.5% and almost lost.
 
I read that the viewership for the DNC was down 22% from 2020... tell me more about enthusiasm...
The non streaming numbers I saw showed it down a bit from 2020 in the first couple nights. Not by 20%, more like 5-10%. But, the DNC is claiming 7 million people streamed on campaign websites (I doubt it was that high, but probably some millions). Also this doesn’t encompass people consuming content asynchronously. I didn’t watch much the first three nights, but watched YouTube speeches each morning,

Net-net I don’t think a classic Nielsen type ranking of TV viewership is a good proxy in 2024 for enthusiasm.
 
I always assumed the challenge in 2020 was knowing how many people would actually vote given the COVID situation. It also made voting more difficult - I had never stood in a line more than five minutes over 50 years of voting, but the line in 2020 was about two hours.

Hillary polled 3.5% higher than Trump, and won by 2%. I think normally we could expect about a 2% bias. But if HORT is any indication, Trump voters are very reluctant to admit it. So the polls could be even farther off this year.

Or, we could just say Trump voters are more likely to lie. Which would make sense.
 
My criticism of the article which is a Pepsi FYI is it seems to focus on one particular poll. I think putting all your stock on one particular poll is silly.

I think if you had looked at all of the polls and put together an average the polls were pretty close.
 
I stand corrected. Maybe it was the RNC that was down 22%


200w.gif
 
My criticism of the article which is a Pepsi FYI is it seems to focus on one particular poll. I think putting all your stock on one particular poll is silly.

I think if you had looked at all of the polls and put together an average the polls were pretty close.
The 538 showed Biden with over an 8% polling advantage, and he won by half that. But, again, I have assumed 2020 was an outlier due to COVID. We will see.

What I do know that that with the EC the Democratic has to win by at least 4% to win the Presidency. So they better be up. In the polls at least 5%.
 
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Trump will get less votes than he did in 2020. That is a virtual lock. He will almost certainly lose independents and will lose a decent number of moderate Rs. His campaign isn't shoring up anybody right now but hardcore racists. That's not a great place to be.
Wow... didn't you complain about people calling you a fag on here? I mean if you're just going to lump anyone who doesn't want to vote for Harris/Walz or would prefer someone other than Trump, but will vote for him anyway a hardcore racist, then I wouldn't expect any extra protection or courtesy.

How about just a little self-awareness?
 
of course this will be a close election.
As Meacham pointed out on morning Joe,
in 1868 U. Grant was the hero general from civil war vs a white supremacist in an election where most of white southerners were banned from voting and Grant still only won by 4 points!
It's our brains...we are hard-wired to be pre-disposed to right or left.
It's a turn-out election.
 
The 538 showed Biden with over an 8% polling advantage, and he won by half that. But, again, I have assume 2020 was an outlier due to COVID. We will see.

What I do know that that with the EC the Democratic has to win by at least 4% to win the Presidency. So they better be up. In the polls at least 5%.
I'll be interested in the Real Clear Politics average in a few days now that the DNC is over.
 
At the end of the day I still think it simply boils down to which party gets their voters to turn out. Obviously different people have different priorities, Economy, Border, Etc. Right now with Biden out of the race and the Democrats looking like they truly are back in the game I am not sure I would bet against the Women pissed about Roe v Wade being the deciding factor.
 
Dems organized?
I better turn up the heat in Hell 'cause its about to freeze
If I find the study I’ll post it but a persuasive case can be made that Biden’s insistence on prioritizing field operations in 2020 was the difference in his victories in Wisconsin and Michigan (and probably GA as well). Unseating an incumbent is difficult.

He gained better appreciation of the turnout value of strong field operations from that radical community organizer —Barack Obama.
 
I read that the viewership for the DNC was down 22% from 2020... tell me more about enthusiasm...
Did you see the TV line up this week? The DNC competed with 1 thing, the bears chiefs pre season last night.

Day 2 of the RNC had 16 million viewers to the DNCs 20 mill.

The 2nd night of the RNC was the NBA all star game and a USWNT soccer game.


( let them remain ignorant, it makes the jokes better)
 
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Another article from Politico on the subject.

I think the basic problem with Trump being on the ballot is simply accurately gauging his support. The pollsters have been off in 2016 and 2020 but...they've been working on correcting that. Maybe they have? Who knows.

Part of what’s also made it difficult to gauge Trump supporters is that we’ve also seen consistently over the past 8 years in down-ballot races that in competitive races, Trump-backed candidates have a poor record of success, and even in safe races that they still win, they underperform compared to Trump. He truly is a unicorn politically and that’s a difficult thing to track.
of course this will be a close election.
As Meacham pointed out on morning Joe,
in 1868 U. Grant was the hero general from civil war vs a white supremacist in an election where most of white southerners were banned from voting and Grant still only won by 4 points!
It's our brains...we are hard-wired to be pre-disposed to right or left.
It's a turn-out election.
That’s just a terrible comparison. You’re surprised that the guy who won the Civil War didn’t do well in the states from the losing side?
 
The 2016 election lives in popular memory as perhaps the most infamous polling miss of all time

In 2016, by contrast, national polling predicted Hillary Clinton’s popular-vote margin quite accurately.)
Just FYI, but you contradicted yourself here. Saying 2016 was the most infamous polling miss of all time but then saying it was quite accurate.

This is one of the common misconceptions about that election year. Polling was fairly accurate as Hillary did win the popular vote but lost a narrow electoral college path that Trump won.

My take is that this could be the similar case in 2024. Harris will very likely win the popular vote but will it be in the right places? One thing is certain and that is Republicans have not won the popular vote in a LONG time and probably won't for a long time in the future. Trump's only path to victory (but very doable) is via the 2016 route.
 
Yep. I’m no Trump fan, but it is just amazing to me that all of the news says he’s down bigly. This will not be a cake walk for Harris and she should not expect victory. All of this poll talk just smells like wishful thinking by the press more than anything else. Reminds me of 2016 way too much, Hillary was supposed to coast to victory.

Now the question is, why do the polls underestimate Trump more than any other candidate? A theory I have is that there’s a combo of a few things going on.
  1. Polls aren’t querying the types of people that are hardcore Trump lovers as they are in poorer and/or more rural areas.
  2. Polls are querying a disproportionate amount of city-living voters.
  3. Trump lovers aren’t responding to polls because they are either anti-establishment or just not trusting of them.
  4. There are a lot of non-Trump loving independents or Republicans that aren’t willing to publicly admit to voting for Trump, but do it when they get to the private voting booth.
  5. Some other bias in the ways the polls are administered.
Are any of those at play? Something else?
Personally, I think it's number 3 that plays a big part.
 
There are so many factors at play I don’t know how pollsters can account for all of it. Major increases in Hispanic population, the greying of America - offset by the oldest baby boomers now dying off, how mobilized is Gen Z to vote, never Trumper Republicans, and so on.

Personally I never respond to cold calls, random texts or random emails. How do they reach these people? I just don’t know how they find a statically significant, truly representative sample in each battleground state to say with assuredness how this thing will play out.

My gut tells me it is a very close race and if Kamala can keep this up, plus get more specifics on policy, it is hers for the taking.
I’m on an Axios email polling list so that’s how I personally get polled on these types of questions. Not sure how their sampling algorithm works though.
 
Did you see the TV line up this week? The DNC competed with 1 thing, the bears chiefs pre season last night.

Day 2 of the RNC had 16 million viewers to the DNCs 20 mill.

The 2nd night of the RNC was the NBA all star game and a USWNT soccer game.


( let them remain ignorant, it makes the jokes better)
Hate to break it to you, but the NBA all-star game was in February. If you mean the WNBA game... only 3 million watched that.
 
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