Two coaches who should have been fired...

[BlackNGoldBleeder]

Pat Chambers and Fran McCaffery.

By today's standards, both would have been at about any other P5 school. Fran should have been canned after 17-18; Chambers after last year.

Perhaps we're too quick to want to hire and fire coaches.

*For the record, I was in favor of letting Fran go after the 17-18 season.

 

[StormHawk42]

Impressive that PSU stuck with Chambers this long but I like him and hope they keep him around. I thought he had the potential and recruiting ability to turn it around.

 

[BlackNGoldBleeder]

Impressive that PSU stuck with Chambers this long but I like him and hope they keep him around. I thought he had the potential and recruiting ability to turn it around.

I agree. But to put it in perspective Chambers was hired in 2011.

This year will be the first year he has taken Penn State to the Dance.

 

[L. Wade Childress]

Pat Chambers and Fran McCaffery.

By today's standards, both would have been at about any other P5 school. Fran should have been canned after 17-18; Chambers after last year.

Perhaps we're too quick to want to hire and fire coaches.

*For the record, I was in favor of letting Fran go after the 17-18 season.

Fran should have been fired after 18? What the ****?

 

[BlackNGoldBleeder]

Fran should have been fired after 18? What the ****?

By today's standards, you don't think he would have been at many other P5 schools?

 

[StormHawk42]

Fran should have been fired after 18? What the ****?

Wasn’t that the year we finished 14-18? A lot of folks were disgruntled. Especially after an early NIT exit the year before.

 

[Hawkeye_311]

Agreed. Fran has a Final Four caliber team next season if everyone come back.

 

[iahawks10]

Wasn’t that the year we finished 14-18? A lot of folks were disgruntled. Especially after an early NIT exit the year before.

Which was ridiculously stupid then as well. Iowa started 3 SO and 2 FR, and 3 SO reserves along with 3 JRs.

I don’t have an opinion one way or another on Barta, I’m just glad he doesn’t have the knee jerk reaction time that our fan base does and can look objectively at the bigger picture.

 

[unoHawkeye]

It’s taken a long time, but it appears that Fran has built the program to the point where we should have the ability to sustain relative success on a year in, year out basis.

Fran took a lot of heat for much of the early portion of his tenure for uneven recruiting classes - bringing in five or six players in one class. It resulted in a couple unsatisfactory years like 2017-2018, when the Hawks had one of the youngest teams in the entire country. However, on the flip side of this developmental program approach, are years like 2014-15 and 2015-2016, when Iowa is stocked full of vets who are capable of going on a run. These years gave Fran, and Iowa, a lot of credibility in the eyes of young players within the state of Iowa, and with other recruits nationally... even if we haven’t gotten as far into the tourney as we’d like

Because of what, specifically, the 2012 and 2016 classes have accomplished as upperclassmen, Iowa is reaching the point where they can bring in guys who can actually contribute as underclassmen. Guys like Fredrick supplanting an upperclassman in Moss. A guy like Toussaint who can step in and start at the most difficult position to play well in basketball... and actually do it well. Wieskamp, Cook, Garza, etc. the list goes on.

I have a feeling that multiple players in the 2020 class will be able to contribute as underclassmen as well, to the point that, when Garza and Bohannon (two Iowa legends) move on after next year, the Hawks won’t miss a beat. And when Weezy, Nunge, and Connor move on the year after, the same. All this to say, I agree with OP, and commend the athletic department (an extremely difficult thing for me to do) for wisely sticking with Fran, even when we as fans haven’t been so patient

 

[unoHawkeye]

TLDR; it’s a great time to be a fan of Iowa hoops

 

[L. Wade Childress]

By today's standards, you don't think he would have been at many other P5 schools?

yeah maybe at Duke or Kansas

 

[BlackNGoldBleeder]

yeah maybe at Duke or Kansas

After 8 seasons? Pffft. He would have been gone at a lot of places.

 

[Scott559]

Maybe Iowa’s AD realizes that when you consider money invested in the BB program Fran normally exceeds what should be expected.

 

[jamesvanderwulf]

The bar is lower at PSU than Iowa. I think they had 1 winning Big season in the 15 years before Chambers came in.

 

[TKingpin]

Is it me or does Chambers look more like a wrestling coach than basketball?

 

[Fran-Con-2]

Maybe Iowa’s AD realizes that when you consider money invested in the BB program Fran normally exceeds what should be expected.

Last year, Fran was paid 10th in the B10 conference. He was paid worse than Tim Miles, Archie Miller, Brad Underwood, Chris Holtman, and Greg Gard.

If we win at least one more game, Fran will likely have finished in the top 6 of the conference 7 out of 10 years.

So the 10th best paid coach finishes in the top 6 more often than not. That's a decent bargain. If this were a business (which it is), Barta looks like a smart man. It's not conference championships, but from an administrative perspective, our basketball program is in pretty good shape.

 

[BigDelHawk]

It’s taken a long time, but it appears that Fran has built the program to the point where we should have the ability to sustain relative success on a year in, year out basis.

Fran took a lot of heat for much of the early portion of his tenure for uneven recruiting classes - bringing in five or six players in one class. It resulted in a couple unsatisfactory years like 2017-2018, when the Hawks had one of the youngest teams in the entire country. However, on the flip side of this developmental program approach, are years like 2014-15 and 2015-2016, when Iowa is stocked full of vets who are capable of going on a run. These years gave Fran, and Iowa, a lot of credibility in the eyes of young players within the state of Iowa, and with other recruits nationally... even if we haven’t gotten as far into the tourney as we’d like

Because of what, specifically, the 2012 and 2016 classes have accomplished as upperclassmen, Iowa is reaching the point where they can bring in guys who can actually contribute as underclassmen. Guys like Fredrick supplanting an upperclassman in Moss. A guy like Toussaint who can step in and start at the most difficult position to play well in basketball... and actually do it well. Wieskamp, Cook, Garza, etc. the list goes on.

I have a feeling that multiple players in the 2020 class will be able to contribute as underclassmen as well, to the point that, when Garza and Bohannon (two Iowa legends) move on after next year, the Hawks won’t miss a beat. And when Weezy, Nunge, and Connor move on the year after, the same. All this to say, I agree with OP, and commend the athletic department (an extremely difficult thing for me to do) for wisely sticking with Fran, even when we as fans haven’t been so patient

Fran did not have the facility to recruit, or even train his players well until fairly recently. How long ago did we finally get the new basketball training facility? 2012, too late to use it to recruit to its fullest potential. At the time we were one of two big ten teams that did not have a dedicated practice facility. We promised one to Alford, burned through Lickliter and Fran finally got it. 2017 before he finally got the team he wanted, and now he can invite eighth graders in to camp and to see the facilities. Basketball is not like football, they know who is rising years before they are ready to fully recruit these kids

 

[Ronman]

There have a been a crap load of B1G programs during McCaffery's tenure that would have loved to have his success.

And McCaffery din't need Hookers, Blazers or Get Out Of Jail Free Cards to achieve it

 

[MeetTheFerentz]

Agreed. Fran has a Final Four caliber team this season if everyone stays healthy and plays to their potential.

FIFY

 

[myteamcanbeatupyourteam]

Pat Chambers and Fran McCaffery.

By today's standards, both would have been at about any other P5 school. Fran should have been canned after 17-18; Chambers after last year.

Perhaps we're too quick to want to hire and fire coaches.

*For the record, I was in favor of letting Fran go after the 17-18 season.

This is why 99.99 percent of message board fans would be incompetent AD's.

 

[bucky44]

I still remain highly skeptical of Chambers despite this season. I think it’s just delaying the inevitable, but I suppose a season like this might be worth it for that basketball program

 

[ajdl]

This is why 99.99 percent of message board fans would be incompetent AD's.

Totally agree. And I'm as guilty or more guilty than most. I did not like Fran at all. Thought we should cut our losses and move on. I was wrong. With that said, I think one of his biggest struggles is finding a good flow to our rotation. The injuries have hurt us for sure, but also kind of helped the rotation. Our good players have to play more minutes. Maybe he will learn from this? But man if we had JoBo fully healthy, look out.

 

[Rifler]

The injuries have hurt us for sure, but also kind of helped the rotation. Our good players have to play more minutes.

I think the reality is that reasonably good players tend to improve with increased minutes...

 

[littlez]

Not sure why some on here well coach A or coach B has been here for 8 years so he should have it together by now and never have a down season. Look at Painter. He’ll be lucky to finish 500 this year. Been there how many years? He was a last second shot from the Final 4 last year to the team that won the whole thing. Purdue is a solid program but not elite. Ups and downs happen unless you are the Kentucky’s and Dukes of the world. We’re in a really good place right now and if Garza comes back next year could be preseason top 10. However, if not, he’s impossible to replace and we could certainly struggle again. Wouldn’t think 14-18 but things happen.

 

[hawkeyeinmo]

I guess John Beilein should have been fired for 16-16 record in year 8 at MICHIGAN. Matt Painter fired for his below .500 record in not only year 8 but also year nine at Purdue. These schools have superior basketball facilities, recruiting base, history, etc. I laugh at the “I expected more in year 8” crowd. Off years are going to happen if you’re not a blue blood program ( I think some of our fan base considers Iowa a blue blood LOL). Beloved Tom Davis was 11-16 in year 8.

 

[myteamcanbeatupyourteam]

I guess John Beilein should have been fired for 16-16 record in year 8 at MICHIGAN. Matt Painter fired for his below .500 record in not only year 8 but also year nine at Purdue. These schools have superior basketball facilities, recruiting base, history, etc. I laugh at the “I expected more in year 8” crowd. Off years are going to happen if you’re not a blue blood program ( I think some of our fan base considers Iowa a blue blood LOL). Beloved Tom Davis was 11-16 in year 8.

Off years happens regardless if you're a Blue Blood or not. I remember a few years not that long ago when Duke didn't make the tourney. Fire Coach K!!!!!

How about N Carolina this year?

 

[Rifler]

I recall a recent season where Kentucky not only didn't make the tournament but also lost a first round game in the NIT...

 

[Eternal Return]

I don't understand how anyone could have been fired from Penn State, even Chambers. They had sucked for so long it wasn't really reasonable to think anyone could turn that program around. Same with Rutgers and Nebraska.

Iowa, after Lickliter, was definitely wise not to chase away Fran. If he had been fired early, I'm not sure what decent coach would have been willing to take the Iowa coaching job. He's been pretty solid overall.

Unless we're talking about teams tanking like Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, etc., it's probably wise to give most P5 coaches longer rope. It's hard to know what to think in the era of one-and-done. I laugh when I hear basketball announcers saying "there are no great teams this year." Yeah, compared to thirty years ago, there aren't. Zion Williamson and others like him might have stuck around for an extra year or two back then. It takes guys like that playing until they are upperclassmen to build the type of "super-teams" that used to exist in the 80s and, to a lesser extent, the 90s.

 

[HawkLogic]

Fran has a nice team this year. Next year he is setup for a team that should compete for a B1G title. Winning a B1G title is something no Iowa coach has done since Lute Olson---so if Fran does that, then he will have something to match Lute Olson. If he wins a Big10 tourney, he will have done something to match Alford. If he gets to Elite8 in NCAA, then he will match Davis. Final-4, he will match Olson.

In Fran's 10 years, he's won 48.9% of his B1G games vs his peers---which means Iowa has been pretty much average over 10 years for B1G play vs our true peers. Lute Olson got the program rolling and Davis, Alford, and Fran have all kept it around 0.500 in B1G play. Lickliter is only guy that was truly horrible.

 

[L. Wade Childress]

I see penn state having a big drop off next year. I think they were smart to keep chambers but no reason to lock him in long term.

 

[owenhawk]

After 8 seasons? Pffft. He would have been gone at a lot of places.

Do you think Roy Boy is going to get fired at North Carolina after this year? I realize he has won more than Fran has but he is also at a blue blood with extremely high expectations and a built-in advantage in the recruiting world. And he has been there for years. He is going to finish with a worse record than Iowa in 17-18.

My point being is most coaches are going to be allowed 1 poor year from time to time, especially at a school at Iowa that is not perceived on the same level as the Duke, UNC, and Kansas. If Fran would have been fired after that year, there would have been a lot of negative press and grumbling in the college basketball world about Fran getting a raw deal.

 

[CuttyDoesIt]

After 8 seasons? Pffft. He would have been gone at a lot of places.

Youre right. he forgot nebraska football.

Do you think Roy Williams is gonna get canned?

 

[Hawk_4shur]

I've said this many, many times on this board .... if you look at the many, many schools that have fired coaches in the last decade in both football and basketball, most have failed to change their overall position in their conferences. Of course, there are exceptions that bring up the program, and a few exceptions that bring down the program, but most of the time the team stays about where they were before the change.

Now, I'm not talking about coaches that get fired "for cause", or total disasters like Lick.

But, finding the right coach to elevate a program is dam difficult - a lot of the time you just end up spending extra $$ to accomplish very little.

 

[BlackNGoldBleeder]

Do you think Roy Boy is going to get fired at North Carolina after this year? I realize he has won more than Fran has but he is also at a blue blood with extremely high expectations and a built-in advantage in the recruiting world. And he has been there for years. He is going to finish with a worse record than Iowa in 17-18.

My point being is most coaches are going to be allowed 1 poor year from time to time, especially at a school at Iowa that is not perceived on the same level as the Duke, UNC, and Kansas. If Fran would have been fired after that year, there would have been a lot of negative press and grumbling in the college basketball world about Fran getting a raw deal.

Well, Tom Crean got canned the year after winning the conference, but I understand your point. My thinking was the perception at the time was Iowa had reached its ceiling with Fran and that it would be prudent to go a different direction in finding a head coach who would take Iowa to that ever elusive "next level" Iowa has been in pursuit of since Dr. Tom. So, it wasn't about one bad season as it was the perception that Fran had already peaked with his 2014-2016 teams.

The whole point of my post is that sometimes patience pays off. Fran brings an exciting brand of basketball to the table and it seems the program should be solid for years to come. This wouldn't have been possible if Barta had caved into pressure and let Fran go after the 2017-2018 season.

 

[BlackNGoldBleeder]

Youre right. he forgot nebraska football.

Do you think Roy Williams is gonna get canned?

A lot of coaches get canned. Avery Johnson got fired after 4 years at Alabama. Mick Cronin got the boot after taking Cincinnati to the tourney last year. So, it wasn't inconceivable that Fran could have been fired after eight years.

Read my response to Owen.

 

[iahawks10]

Well, Tom Crean got canned the year after winning the conference, but I understand your point. My thinking was the perception at the time was Iowa had reached its ceiling with Fran and that it would be prudent to go a different direction in finding a head coach who would take Iowa to that ever elusive "next level" Iowa has been in pursuit of since Dr. Tom. So, it wasn't about one bad season as it was the perception that Fran had already peaked with his 2014-2016 teams.

The whole point of my post is that sometimes patience pays off. Fran brings an exciting brand of basketball to the table and it seems the program should be solid for years to come. This wouldn't have been possible if Barta had caved into pressure and let Fran go after the 2017-2018 season.

It was also ridiculously silly to believe that Fran reached his ceiling then. I’m pretty sure we discussed it (if not you and me, I debated it with others). I’m not saying Iowa will make the sweet 16 this season, but to think Fran’s ceiling is a middle of the road B1G finish and a second rd exit in NCAA couldn’t be further from actuality.

We must be remembering it differently, but I don’t recall Fran’s seat being too hot after 2017-18 season. I don’t think many people were too happy after that season, but I don’t remember there a great deal of pressure on Barta to fire Fran.

 

[Hawk_4shur]

Well, Tom Crean got canned the year after winning the conference, but I understand your point. My thinking was the perception at the time was Iowa had reached its ceiling with Fran and that it would be prudent to go a different direction in finding a head coach who would take Iowa to that ever elusive "next level" Iowa has been in pursuit of since Dr. Tom. So, it wasn't about one bad season as it was the perception that Fran had already peaked with his 2014-2016 teams.

The whole point of my post is that sometimes patience pays off. Fran brings an exciting brand of basketball to the table and it seems the program should be solid for years to come. This wouldn't have been possible if Barta had caved into pressure and let Fran go after the 2017-2018 season.

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you - about perception and fan pressure.

Let's say that the Hawks make it to the elusive Sweet 16 this year and no further. Then the Magic 8 ball were to tell you that Fran would never take the Hawks any further.

Would some folks fire Fran and go hire ___________? Yes, some would. But, I'd have a hard time doing that, because the next coach is very likely to be less capable than Fran. Many would argue that point, but it does seem that schools looking for the next great coach are having a hard time with that.

 

[iahawks10]

A lot of coaches get canned. Avery Johnson got fired after 4 years at Alabama. Mick Cronin got the boot after taking Cincinnati to the tourney last year. So, it wasn't inconceivable that Fran could have been fired after eight years.

Read my response to Owen.

Cronin wasn’t fired at Cincinnati. He left for UCLA.

 

[BlackNGoldBleeder]

It was also ridiculously silly to believe that Fran reached his ceiling then. I’m pretty sure we discussed it (if not you and me, I debated it with others). I’m not saying Iowa will make the sweet 16 this season, but to think Fran’s ceiling is a middle of the road B1G finish and a second rd exit in NCAA couldn’t be further from actuality.

We must be remembering it differently, but I don’t recall Fran’s seat being too hot after 2017-18 season. I don’t think many people were too happy after that season, but I don’t remember there a great deal of pressure on Barta to fire Fran.

You're probably right. There probably wasn't a great deal of pressure on Barta per se. It was mostly keyboard warriors I was reading. I do remember Patrick McCaffery tweeting about how cool it must be to be an adult who tweets at kids about their dad getting fired.

 

[owenhawk]

Well, Tom Crean got canned the year after winning the conference, but I understand your point. My thinking was the perception at the time was Iowa had reached its ceiling with Fran and that it would be prudent to go a different direction in finding a head coach who would take Iowa to that ever elusive "next level" Iowa has been in pursuit of since Dr. Tom. So, it wasn't about one bad season as it was the perception that Fran had already peaked with his 2014-2016 teams.

The whole point of my post is that sometimes patience pays off. Fran brings an exciting brand of basketball to the table and it seems the program should be solid for years to come. This wouldn't have been possible if Barta had caved into pressure and let Fran go after the 2017-2018 season.

Got it. Yeah, you are right - it seems many times fans go overboard (both negatively and positively) to whatever JUST HAPPENED. It occurs on this board (and in real life) daily.

With Crean - and another example is football coaches at Nebraska - they are ex-blue bloods (I use that term loosely especially with Nebraska) in their sports who are no longer at that level (and likely never will be now that the landscape has changed so much from their glory days) and you have fanbases that can't accept or comprehend their new reality. It leads to delusion and overreacting and firing coaches who might be successful but not at that peak they had once attained.

With Iowa, I think fans (at least most) can see things from a little more realistic perspective because there are years of proof of how hard it is to consistently be at the pinnacle of football and basketball. Yes, we all want Iowa at that next level of being a consistent Sweet 16 or better program but I think most of our fans realize that to achieve that at Iowa, it likely would be only achieved consistently through a coach being shady or having a once in a lifetime type coach who has everything fall in place.