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U.S. illegal immigrant population falls below 11 million, continuing nearly decade-long decline, rep

coloradonoles said:
Good lord, where to start???

We are a nation of laws... do I agree with all those laws? No. Do I break some of them? Yes. But comparing a illegal Mexican gang banger who is in a Sanctuary City selling drugs to me speeding is about as asinine a statement that I've ever heard. When I break laws I fully expect there to be consequences. Some light, some extremely harsh depending on what law I choose to break. Why even called them Illegal Immigrants if "it's the law" is weak? Why not just call them Immigrants? Immigration is a very complex problem that affects a myriad of things outside of a person simply living in a space somewhere.

The problem with allowing "simply people, with families here, working to support them and themselves" is that you complete minimize the people who try and do it right. I work with several engineers who are on the path to citizenship and have spent a great deal of time and money to follow the rules. You simply want them here so they can go pick the oranges for you and you can go to HyVee and buy them for $.99 each.

The entire strawman about felons is not germane to the subject and serves no purpose... why even bring it up??
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Perhaps you are unaware, but they don't earn the "illegal" monkor for selling drugs, but just for being here. When you trip into the world of drug dealers to make your point, you are weakening any point you might have against non-drug dealing illegal immigrants, which is almost all of them. If the reason to send them home amounts to a fine and waiting period, then we should be able to offer that as a solution.
 
The Center for Migration Studies of New York (CMS) is an educational institute/think tank devoted to the study of international migration, to the promotion of understanding between immigrants and receiving communities, and to public policies that safeguard the dignity and rights of migrants, refugees and newcomers.

Which means make up statistics that help our cause.
 
coloradonoles said:
Good lord, where to start???

... The problem with allowing "simply people, with families here, working to support them and themselves" is that you complete minimize the people who try and do it right. I work with several engineers who are on the path to citizenship and have spent a great deal of time and money to follow the rules. You simply want them here so they can go pick the oranges for you and you can go to HyVee and buy them for $.99 each.
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For the sake of argument, I'll offer that your engineer coworkers are likely being guided on that path to citizenship by your HR department -- assuming your HR department recruited them from some other country.

If only the orange farm owner would do the same.

And I'll also offer that it's less that those of us who enjoy the $.99 orange want illegals here, it's the people looking to make a profit off of growing and selling oranges.

Historically the USA (and not only the USA) has exploited cheap, often illegal immigrant labor to do the work that nobody else wants to do. Mining coal, building railroads... Trump uses them to build stuff.

It's like the Drug War. Focusing our energy on removing the supply isn't going to solve the problem. It's the demand that creates the problem. As long as people want (and can get away with using) cheap labor, that demand will be met with supply.
 
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I'm pretty sure the one that signs the papers and takes the oath next week did it on his own, as his daughter and wife have joined him the path.

I COMPLETELY agree that this problem is an employer issue, fine people (and I mean heavy fines) for hiring illegals. Or have the farmer sponsor an immigrant, I would be right in line with that. But that simply isn't being done.

I have decades of anecdotal evidence of illegals coming over and working and paying no or little income tax and sending a loin share of the money they earn back home to Mexico. That should concern everyone. Just because you feel safe in your little interior "fly over" state doesn't mean that there aren't real problems in border states with illegal coming across and causing massive problems.
 
coloradonoles said:
I'm pretty sure the one that signs the papers and takes the oath next week did it on his own, as his daughter and wife have joined him the path.

I COMPLETELY agree that this problem is an employer issue, fine people (and I mean heavy fines) for hiring illegals. Or have the farmer sponsor an immigrant, I would be right in line with that. But that simply isn't being done.

I have decades of anecdotal evidence of illegals coming over and working and paying no or little income tax and sending a loin share of the money they earn back home to Mexico. That should concern everyone. Just because you feel safe in your little interior "fly over" state doesn't mean that there aren't real problems in border states with illegal coming across and causing massive problems.
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Look, if you came to this country for a job as an engineer, and entered on a work visa or whatever and then decided to stay, you are almost un-comparable (apples to oranges) to the immigrant fleeing extreme levels of danger and/or poverty in pursuit of some kind of life improvement (or "happiness" as we like to call it).

I, for one, think this country has a larger problem with "legals" paying their taxes.

My general point is that this whole borderline-xenophobic "issue" of illegal immigration (as generally characterized from the right) is, well, mis-characterized. It's not as big of a problem -- certainly not a national security issue the way it's being presented -- as the GOP would like you to believe.
 
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coloradonoles said:
Good lord, where to start???

We are a nation of laws... do I agree with all those laws? No. Do I break some of them? Yes. But comparing a illegal Mexican gang banger who is in a Sanctuary City selling drugs to me speeding is about as asinine a statement that I've ever heard. When I break laws I fully expect there to be consequences. Some light, some extremely harsh depending on what law I choose to break. Why even called them Illegal Immigrants if "it's the law" is weak? Why not just call them Immigrants? Immigration is a very complex problem that affects a myriad of things outside of a person simply living in a space somewhere.

The problem with allowing "simply people, with families here, working to support them and themselves" is that you complete minimize the people who try and do it right. I work with several engineers who are on the path to citizenship and have spent a great deal of time and money to follow the rules. You simply want them here so they can go pick the oranges for you and you can go to HyVee and buy them for $.99 each.

The entire strawman about felons is not germane to the subject and serves no purpose... why even bring it up??
Click to expand...

This is a strangely hilarious juxtaposition:

But comparing a illegal Mexican gang banger who is in a Sanctuary City selling drugs to me speeding is about as asinine a statement that I've ever heard.


The entire strawman...
 
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coloradonoles said:
I'm pretty sure the one that signs the papers and takes the oath next week did it on his own, as his daughter and wife have joined him the path.

I COMPLETELY agree that this problem is an employer issue, fine people (and I mean heavy fines) for hiring illegals. Or have the farmer sponsor an immigrant, I would be right in line with that. But that simply isn't being done.

I have decades of anecdotal evidence of illegals coming over and working and paying no or little income tax and sending a loin share of the money they earn back home to Mexico. That should concern everyone. Just because you feel safe in your little interior "fly over" state doesn't mean that there aren't real problems in border states with illegal coming across and causing massive problems.
Click to expand...

Let me ask it this way:

Do you just want immigration to be expensive and complicated? Because that seems to be what you are claiming, that because it is expensive and complicated it should be expensive and complicated for everyone.

Curious, where did your anecdotal evidence come from?

Also, the link says that there isn't, in fact, illegals streaming across the border and remaining, that is the entire point of the OP.
 
After pointing out your humorous (I hope intentionally) strawman complaining about strawmen, why don't we compare speeding to a person who crosses over an arbitrary line in order to work, instead of, you know, choosing only the gang-banging rapists.

If you crossed the border in to Alabama to legitimately work and pay taxes and make a livelihood, should Alabama throw you the f**** out, or even throw you in prison first then kick you out? I'm sure that would be obscenely absurd to you, right?

I get that those two things aren't identical. The point of the hypothetical is to show that their crime would not be a crime in other circumstances. Rape, murder, drugs, whatever are going to be illegal, bad acts no matter what. That is why I pointed to felons as a comparison, because it favors you, and still demonstrates my point.

You see: 10.9 MILLION (bolded!) and you start hyperventilating. I, and others, understand that there are specific stories within that number that speak far more to the issue.
 
Rudolph said:
Look, if you came to this country for a job as an engineer, and entered on a work visa or whatever and then decided to stay, you are almost un-comparable (apples to oranges) to the immigrant fleeing extreme levels of danger and/or poverty in pursuit of some kind of life improvement (or "happiness" as we like to call it).

I, for one, think this country has a larger problem with "legals" paying their taxes.

My general point is that this whole borderline-xenophobic "issue" of illegal immigration (as generally characterized from the right) is, well, mis-characterized. It's not as big of a problem -- certainly not a national security issue the way it's being presented -- as the GOP would like you to believe.
Click to expand...

Why does everything have to be political? I never once brought up right, left, up, or down. It started by me saying that it is laughable that we are happy and want to pat ourselves on the back when we ONLY have 10.9 million people living here illegally. You seem to think that anyone who makes it here is given citizenship and we can just erase the laws we have. If that is the way you think so be it! Just say that... don't bring up the xenophoblic "issue" bullshit when I have never once brought that up. And then blame it on the GOP.

I live in a border state with a HUGE Latino population. I see everyday people driving around with no tag on their car, presumably with no licence and no insurance... but because Jose is real nice and he de-tassles your neighbors field for $10/hr and he lives a quiet life, doesn't make that the same experience for many other people. We have a finite set of resources in the country and it isn't fair to the rest to let people here illegally use up those resources freely.
 
theIowaHawk said:
After pointing out your humorous (I hope intentionally) strawman complaining about strawmen, why don't we compare speeding to a person who crosses over an arbitrary line in order to work, instead of, you know, choosing only the gang-banging rapists.

If you crossed the border in to Alabama to legitimately work and pay taxes and make a livelihood, should Alabama throw you the f**** out, or even throw you in prison first then kick you out? I'm sure that would be obscenely absurd to you, right?

I get that those two things aren't identical. The point of the hypothetical is to show that their crime would not be a crime in other circumstances. Rape, murder, drugs, whatever are going to be illegal, bad acts no matter what. That is why I pointed to felons as a comparison, because it favors you, and still demonstrates my point.

You see: 10.9 MILLION (bolded!) and you start hyperventilating. I, and others, understand that there are specific stories within that number that speak far more to the issue.
Click to expand...

But what you don't see, is it isn't an arbitrary line... it's an International border. When I worked in Iowa, I had to pay Iowa taxes even though my permanent residence was in Texas. I was afforded no right to vote in any local election. I was taxed for things that I was never going to use... schools for example. My kids could not have gone to an Iowa college and received in-state tuition. These are some of the things we are letting people who are illegally in the country do, that we don't even let residents of another state do.

It's laughable that 10.9 million doesn't mean anything to you... that is ALOT of people. They would make the 3rd largest city in the US if they all were together.

No immigration doesn't have to be expensive but it has to be SOMETHING, anything... not just roll the dice and see if you can sneak in. If you get caught, just try again next week.
 
coloradonoles said:
Why does everything have to be political? I never once brought up right, left, up, or down. It started by me saying that it is laughable that we are happy and want to pat ourselves on the back when we ONLY have 10.9 million people living here illegally. You seem to think that anyone who makes it here is given citizenship and we can just erase the laws we have. If that is the way you think so be it! Just say that... don't bring up the xenophoblic "issue" bullshit when I have never once brought that up. And then blame it on the GOP.

I live in a border state with a HUGE Latino population. I see everyday people driving around with no tag on their car, presumably with no licence and no insurance... but because Jose is real nice and he de-tassles your neighbors field for $10/hr and he lives a quiet life, doesn't make that the same experience for many other people. We have a finite set of resources in the country and it isn't fair to the rest to let people here illegally use up those resources freely.
Click to expand...
So you agree it's not a national security issue and more an issue of a system that isn't functioning well and needs attention?

For the record I wasn't trying to make this political to be argumentative with you. The GOP has made this political, in an out-sized way in my opinion, and I merely brought it up to summarize my point. The GOP is trying to scare everybody into voting for them. It's a tired tactic.

And I suspect some of your personal feelings on the immigration issue are at least partially attributable to this. Why? Because if you're hyper-aware enough to be looking for tags on cars while you drive, then jumping to the conclusion the driver is unlicensed and uninsured, you've been influenced somehow to do so.

Anyways, back to the original question: Do you agree it's not a national security issue and more an issue of a system that isn't functioning well and needs attention?
 
coloradonoles said:
But what you don't see, is it isn't an arbitrary line... it's an International border. When I worked in Iowa, I had to pay Iowa taxes even though my permanent residence was in Texas. I was afforded no right to vote in any local election. I was taxed for things that I was never going to use... schools for example. My kids could not have gone to an Iowa college and received in-state tuition. These are some of the things we are letting people who are illegally in the country do, that we don't even let residents of another state do.

It's laughable that 10.9 million doesn't mean anything to you... that is ALOT of people. They would make the 3rd largest city in the US if they all were together.

No immigration doesn't have to be expensive but it has to be SOMETHING, anything... not just roll the dice and see if you can sneak in. If you get caught, just try again next week.
Click to expand...

You prove my point with your "...if they were all together..." comment. All you see is the number, a clump of faceless, backstory-less numbers. You can do that with any "bad" group, like felons. It would certainly be a problem to have all Felons comprising one city too. Or all Trump voters, or all Y'allqaeda members, etc.

You also miss the mark on claiming that out of state residents don't get perks that illegals do, because you miss the glaring obvious: people with residence in the state get those perks. More simply: living in Iowa is the classification. You are trying to compare someone who lives in Iowa (the illegal in your hypo) to a person who doesn't (the legal visitor). Nothing stops the visitor from taking part in the exact same way.
 
coloradonoles said:
Why does everything have to be political? I never once brought up right, left, up, or down. It started by me saying that it is laughable that we are happy and want to pat ourselves on the back when we ONLY have 10.9 million people living here illegally. You seem to think that anyone who makes it here is given citizenship and we can just erase the laws we have. If that is the way you think so be it! Just say that... don't bring up the xenophoblic "issue" bullshit when I have never once brought that up. And then blame it on the GOP.

I live in a border state with a HUGE Latino population. I see everyday people driving around with no tag on their car, presumably with no licence and no insurance... but because Jose is real nice and he de-tassles your neighbors field for $10/hr and he lives a quiet life, doesn't make that the same experience for many other people. We have a finite set of resources in the country and it isn't fair to the rest to let people here illegally use up those resources freely.
Click to expand...

I'd be curious to read why this exact opinion isn't xenophoblic (sic).

Is this like, "it isn't a phobia because spiders are literally hunting and plotting to kill me..."?
 
I've summarized the article for those who didn't want to read all of it. "We count fewer and fewer each year, so it means there are fewer."

When we say immigrants, do we mean Illegal Aliens? Or do we mean Immigrants? I would guess there are many more than 11 million immigrants, and that's great! Illegal aliens on the other hand, are the ones we need to control the flow of, and turn them into immigrants.
 
theIowaHawk said:
You prove my point with your "...if they were all together..." comment. All you see is the number, a clump of faceless, backstory-less numbers. You can do that with any "bad" group, like felons. It would certainly be a problem to have all Felons comprising one city too. Or all Trump voters, or all Y'allqaeda members, etc.

You also miss the mark on claiming that out of state residents don't get perks that illegals do, because you miss the glaring obvious: people with residence in the state get those perks. More simply: living in Iowa is the classification. You are trying to compare someone who lives in Iowa (the illegal in your hypo) to a person who doesn't (the legal visitor). Nothing stops the visitor from taking part in the exact same way.
Click to expand...

You really try as hard as you can to bring in your points to an argument that have no basis for be involved... FELONS HAVE **** ALL TO DO WITH THIS ARGUMENT, NONE, NADA ZILCH. I was simply trying to convey to you just how big a number 10.9 million is... that's amounts to 1 in 30 of the total people in the US. Felons are US citizens that have committed a crime, been punished and if they are out walking around, paid the debt society has decided for them. They are even with the bank, so to speak. Now if you want to have a discussion about banishment of felons from society?? that is a complete different thread but it doesn't belong here...

I lived in Ankeny for almost a year, before that I lived in Cedar Rapids for close to 2... I "lived" in Iowa but I was not a "resident" of Iowa... I could not vote in a local election, my kids could not go to college on in-state tuition... these are a few of the things that "illegals" living in Sanctuary Cities get to do... how is this so hard for you to understand???
 
NoleSoup4U said:
You have a hard time believing that people will cheat in order to win? Have you been watching what has been going on in this country over the last fifty years?
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Have you? Because your theory has been investigated ad nauseam to no avail. Empirical data bratha.
 
theIowaHawk said:
I'd be curious to read why this exact opinion isn't xenophoblic (sic).

Is this like, "it isn't a phobia because spiders are literally hunting and plotting to kill me..."?
Click to expand...

Again with the interjections... you seem to have a very unhealthy fascination with rape and murder (probably should look into that). I am not scared of illegals, I think they take up resources we don't have and cause problems we don't need.

I have worked in construction the better part of my life, one of my best friends is a guy who lives in Monterrey Mexico and comes to this country and works. His mom was at a wedding in Laredo, TX when he was born so he by definition is a citizen. I speak Spanish!

But to say that we have people who cause problems in the US who are citizens is an excuse to let people who aren't do the same thing is intellectually ignorant and scary.
 
theIowaHawk said:
I'm confused. Just yesterday posters were complaining about these illegals using real SSNs and paying real taxes.
Click to expand...

Where are these illegals paying taxes? They're the recipient class. All the money they make goes back to their families. ZERO taxes are being paid by these people.
 
IMCC965 said:
Where are these illegals paying taxes? They're the recipient class. All the money they make goes back to their families. ZERO taxes are being paid by these people.
Click to expand...

So you disagree with the other thread? You believe that other people's SSNs are not actually being used?

That is why I wanted to clarify.
 
coloradonoles said:
Again with the interjections... you seem to have a very unhealthy fascination with rape and murder (probably should look into that). I am not scared of illegals, I think they take up resources we don't have and cause problems we don't need.

I have worked in construction the better part of my life, one of my best friends is a guy who lives in Monterrey Mexico and comes to this country and works. His mom was at a wedding in Laredo, TX when he was born so he by definition is a citizen. I speak Spanish!

But to say that we have people who cause problems in the US who are citizens is an excuse to let people who aren't do the same thing is intellectually ignorant and scary.
Click to expand...

You were the one bringing up gangbangers...
 
coloradonoles said:
You really try as hard as you can to bring in your points to an argument that have no basis for be involved... FELONS HAVE **** ALL TO DO WITH THIS ARGUMENT, NONE, NADA ZILCH. I was simply trying to convey to you just how big a number 10.9 million is... that's amounts to 1 in 30 of the total people in the US. Felons are US citizens that have committed a crime, been punished and if they are out walking around, paid the debt society has decided for them. They are even with the bank, so to speak. Now if you want to have a discussion about banishment of felons from society?? that is a complete different thread but it doesn't belong here...

I lived in Ankeny for almost a year, before that I lived in Cedar Rapids for close to 2... I "lived" in Iowa but I was not a "resident" of Iowa... I could not vote in a local election, my kids could not go to college on in-state tuition... these are a few of the things that "illegals" living in Sanctuary Cities get to do... how is this so hard for you to understand???
Click to expand...

I said that felons have nothing to do with the illegals, it was s comparison to explain my premise, which you still appear not to understand.

It wasn't complicated: the number that you are so worried about is not the concern, but you simply can't get past the number.
 
22*43*51 said:
No. You keep trying to draw this box around people.

There are plenty of jobs for the legal immigrants.
Click to expand...

This was YOUR post:

22*43*51 said:
Here are numbers.

The Immigration rate(legal, or otherwise) is outpacing job-growth by 2X.

http://cis.org/for-every-new-job-two-new-immigrants
Click to expand...

You stated that legal, or otherwise, it is outpacing job-growth. I inferred that you have a problem with that, but I wanted you to clarify to be sure.

Do you, or do you not, have a problem with immigration outpacing job growth? Do you have a problem with it outpacing it by 2x?
 
theIowaHawk said:
This was YOUR post:



You stated that legal, or otherwise, it is outpacing job-growth. I inferred that you have a problem with that, but I wanted you to clarify to be sure.

Do you, or do you not, have a problem with immigration outpacing job growth? Do you have a problem with it outpacing it by 2x?
Click to expand...

Legal immigration is not outpacing growth.

I have no problem with law abiding immigrants.
 
What Would Jesus Do? said:
But why? Is it because the US has become a less attractive place to live? Why leave a 3rd world nation for an angry, racist nation that's also heading toward 3rd world status - especially for people in the lower range of the socioeconomic spectrum?
Click to expand...
Good to see wwjd has a new rant.
 
The town has illegals all over the place 10 new hispanic establishments and the 2010 census added nothing!
They are everywhere in town
Every Sat a bus comes in and drop 50 more at the mexican grocery store!
11 am or so!!
 
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