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Who can police a president unwilling to abide by the law?

cigaretteman

HB King
May 29, 2001
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"In retrospect, there was no reason we should ever have expected Donald Trump to really embrace the “equal power” aspect of the presidency. Modern presidents have typically arrived at the White House after having served elsewhere in government, often the federal legislative branch. No one had come from running a private company. No one had come to power limited only by what his lawyers couldn’t wriggle him out of. But Trump did.

During his first four years in office and during the first few weeks of his return, Trump has worked deliberately and effectively to transform the presidency from being one-third of a governmental triumvirate into something more like what his ideological allies Vladimir Putin and Viktor Orban enjoy. He has been aided by remarkable capitulation from the purportedly equal branches.
As he and his team — most notably Elon Musk — run roughshod over legal and ethical boundaries, it’s been hard not to notice how unprepared the system is for an internal threat. One would in fact be justified in assuming that Trump’s failures to comply with the law might trigger no repercussions whatsoever, just as they didn’t during his first term in office and largely didn’t during his interregnum.

Who will police the president? Barring an outbreak of self-respect at the Capitol, the answers are unsatisfying. There are the courts, though that path tends to be slow and depends on respect for the courts’ authority. There’s also the public — the same public that Trump still insists wanted him to be president in November 2020. And that’s about it.
Illegality by the administration is not an abstract question. Trump and/or Musk have blocked congressionally authorized spending, gutted a congressionally instituted governmental agency, fired inspectors general without the proper notice, reportedly put confidential information at risk and overseen other changes that appear to violate the Constitution or the law.

“Trump is asserting a constitutional prerogative to ignore, disregard or even openly violate laws that are inconsistent with his policy,” New York University law professor Trevor Morrison told the Wall Street Journal. Writing on Substack, former executive-branch attorneys Bob Bauer and Jack Goldsmith suggest that it’s likely that the Trump administration “doesn’t care about compliance with current law, might not care about what the Supreme Court thinks either, and is seeking to effectuate radical constitutional change.”

In other words: Violations of legal and precedential boundaries are about proving that no one can police the president, as much as revealing that no one can.
This would explain why Trump is trying to effect change through executive orders rather than getting legislation passed by Congress. He could pressure his party’s slim majorities in the House and Senate to, say, dismantle the U.S. Agency for International Development. It would take political capital and require a public fight. But if his intent is to demonstrate that he doesn’t need to defer to the legislative branch — the “most aggressive” implementation of the idea that the president holds uncontested control over the executive branch, as Michael Gerhardt, a professor of constitutional law at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, put it in a phone call — then the executive order itself is central to the point. Or consider the executive order on TikTok which, as Bauer and Goldsmith note, challenges both the legislative branch (which passed the law banning it) and the Supreme Court (for upholding the ban).
What have we seen in response to Trump’s and Musk’s actions? Not a lot.

Law enforcement​

If Musk’s team that is slashing through government agencies lacks the proper authorization to obtain classified information or access certain offices, for example, the Department of Homeland Security might usually get involved. Even if any individuals were arrested for violating federal laws, though, Trump could immediately pardon them, granting them both retroactive and proactive immunity.


If you’re curious what approach the Justice Department might take: Interim U.S. attorney Edward R. Martin Jr. sent a public message on Monday assuring Musk that his office in D.C. would work to protect members of Musk’s team from the putative threat of being publicly identified. It is similarly likely that a Trump-controlled Justice Department — and by all appearances this one is shaping up to be just that — would decline to launch an investigation or appoint a special counsel to evaluate Trump’s and Musk’s actions."

 
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"Congress​

The constitutional process for holding a rogue president to account, of course, is impeachment. But no one assumes that Trump faces any real impeachment threat, both because the House and Senate are under Republican control and because (as seen twice during his first term) the two-thirds standard required from the Senate for removal from office is highly unlikely to be met.

Beyond the partisan math, Republicans have generally offered public support for what is underway. Sen. Thom Tillis (R-North Carolina) agreed that Musk’s approach “runs afoul of the Constitution in the strictest sense” but suggested that presidential reticence on spending was “not uncommon.” (Musk’s actions, undertaken with Trump’s blessing, are quite uncommon.) Republicans in Congress believe, with some justification, that their political careers depend on allying with Trump. There’s little appetite for challenging him — even when he’s eating away at their own constitutionally delineated power.
Democrats, meanwhile, have limited options. The upcoming budget deadline offers a point of pressure, but it will be tricky for the party to advocate an extended government shutdown in response to Trump administration actions that include halting government spending.

The courts​

The other theoretically equal branch of government, of course, is the judiciary. Gerhardt noted that Trump doesn’t have a strong track record of respecting court orders, either as a private citizen or as president.


“Trump’s got tremendous incentives to defy the law,” he said, “and the courts are doing very little to deal with that.”
The courts are constrained in ways that necessarily slow their ability to respond. Lawsuits must be brought and adjudicated. Many have been initial roadblocks to Trump’s path forward, including ones that blocked the administration’s effort to freeze federal funding. But such judgments face challenges of their own.
Some of the court fights will inevitably end up at the Supreme Court, a Trump-friendly group that proved receptive to the idea that the president — specifically this one — should be able to serve with a reduced concern about legal constraints. Rather than check Trump’s power, the court has already expanded it."


https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2025/01/30/donald-trump-iron-dome-missile-defense/

Government officials​

Mandates from judges require adherence from government officials — officials often facing countervailing pressure from the administration. A central element of what Trump promised as a candidate was that he would upend the federal bureaucracy, firing many bureaucrats and replacing them with sycophants. Musk and Trump have already shown a willingness to oust officials they view as unfriendly, even ignoring protections those individuals have against being fired.

If there’s an official who won’t defy a court order or who otherwise obstructs the administration’s plans, that person could be fired and replaced with someone who would. If the firing is illegal, it goes back to the slow-moving courts to adjudicate. In the meantime, the replacement has the wheel. Any subsequent failure to heed a court order might well go unpunished, either because the Justice Department decides against bringing charges or because Trump again offers a pardon for the action.

The people​

There is one lever that might prove effective at reining Trump in, Gerhardt argued: public opinion. Both internal and external actors have capitulated to Trump’s demands without having to do so, in part because they have not faced countervailing public pressure. (The flurry of executive orders appears to have been designed to diffuse opposition to specific actions.)


Past presidents, including Theodore Roosevelt, Gerhardt said, have acted under the presumption that they were unfettered in their power unless public opinion turns against them. During his first term, in fact, Trump did at times reverse decisions in the face of public outcry. But the challenge at the moment, particularly with Trump not eligible for reelection, is that the outcry to which he might respond is more narrow.
“The public is not supportive” of Trump’s actions, Gerhardt noted. “What matters to Trump is that his base stays unified and loudly supports him.”
So far, it does. Short of a sudden stiffening of Republican spines or a shift in the economics of running a right-wing media property, it seems likely that it will continue to do so for the next several years.
The resulting risk is that Trump gets what he wants: A presidency that diverges from how American presidents have served in the past in favor of a presidency that resembles how Russia’s president serves in the present."
 
The American public!

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For real though, everyone should be appalled by the blatant attempt to thwart the laws and institutions of our once great country. I speak against it when I feel dems over reach. I speak against it when repubbers over reach. I'm not blinded by party politics. It's why I'm so much better than most. Be better every one. Be like me.
 
Our American democracy was built on three equal branches
of government: Congress, Supreme Court, and President.

However, Trump has decided to ignore this arrangement and
become a dictator. Unfortunately, this causes chaos and bad
government. We need a brave Congress and Supreme Court
to stop this nonsense that Trump can violate the U.S. laws
and U.S. Constitution. Trump issues Executive Orders that
should be stopped immediately. Trump is like a Bull in a
China Shop who ruins everything he touches.
 
Our American democracy was built on three equal branches
of government: Congress, Supreme Court, and President.

However, Trump has decided to ignore this arrangement and
become a dictator. Unfortunately, this causes chaos and bad
government. We need a brave Congress and Supreme Court
to stop this nonsense that Trump can violate the U.S. laws
and U.S. Constitution.
Trump issues Executive Orders that
should be stopped immediately. Trump is like a Bull in a
China Shop who ruins everything he touches.

I love your comedy Lute. You ever think about going on the road?
 
Our American democracy was built on three equal branches
of government: Congress, Supreme Court, and President.

However, Trump has decided to ignore this arrangement and
become a dictator. Unfortunately, this causes chaos and bad
government. We need a brave Congress and Supreme Court
to stop this nonsense that Trump can violate the U.S. laws
and U.S. Constitution. Trump issues Executive Orders that
should be stopped immediately. Trump is like a Bull in a
China Shop who ruins everything he touches.
This and what Tarheel said.
 
Enough people will need to march and demonstrate against all the Repubs in congress and many in the Exec branch.

This will show the Repubs they will all be voted out and they dont want to lose their salary and perks. Right now Trump scares them more than the population does.

We marched to get out of Vietnam, no one marched to get us out of Iraq and afghan which is why those wars kept going,
people marched for voters and civil rights which we got and the REPUBS want to get rid of,

There were tons of protest by most americans in 2009-10 about the REpubs wantign the get rid of the ACA obamacare (I write it that way because there are millions of Americans who say they love the ACA but cant stand obamacare, which is why people like trump get elected because are voters are not informed or dumb)

But anyway those protests made the Repubs and John McCAin say NO to trump.

I will walk and protest , I just joined the local Indivisble group.
 
The presidency must be destroyed. It is the primary evil we face, and the cause of nearly all our woes. It squanders the national wealth and starts unjust wars against foreign peoples that have never done us any harm. It wrecks our families, tramples on our rights, invades our communities, and spies on our bank accounts. It skews the culture toward decadence and trash. It tells lie after lie. Teachers used to tell school kids that anyone can be president. This is like saying anyone can go to hell. It’s not an inspiration; it’s a threat.

The presidency—by which I mean the executive state—is the sum total of American tyranny. The other branches of government, including the presidentially appointed Supreme Court, are mere adjuncts. The presidency insists on complete devotion and humble submission to its dictates, even while it steals the products of our labor and drives us into economic ruin. It centralizes all power in itself and crowds out all competing centers of power in society, including the church, the family, the business, the charity, and the community.

I’ll go further. The US presidency is the world’s leading evil. It is the chief mischief-maker in every part of the globe, the leading wrecker of nations, the usurer behind third-world debt, the bailer of corrupt governments, and the hand in many dictatorial gloves. The US presidency is the sponsor and sustainer of woke international agencies, of wars, interstate and civil, of famine and disease. To see the evils caused by the presidency, look no further than Afghanistan or Iraq or Serbia or Libya or Syria. These are places where the lives of innocents were snuffed out in pointless wars, where bombing was designed to destroy civilian infrastructure and cause disease. These are places where, in many cases, women, children, and the aged have been denied essential food and medicine because of cruel embargoes and US-imposed financial warfare. Look at the human toll taken by the presidency, from Dresden and Hiroshima to Waco and Ruby Ridge, and you see that the presidency is a prime practitioner of murder by government.

Today, the president is called the leader of the world’s only superpower, the “world’s indispensable nation,” which is reason enough to have him deposed. A world with any superpower at all is a world where no freedoms are safe. But by invoking this title, the regime attempts to keep our attention focused on foreign affairs. It is a diversionary tactic designed to keep us from noticing the oppressive rule it imposes right here in the United States.

As the presidency assumes ever more power, it becomes less and less accountable and more and more tyrannical. These days, when we say “the federal government,” what we really mean is the presidency. When we say “national priorities,” we really mean what the presidency wants. When we say “national culture,” we mean what the presidency funds and imposes.

The presidency is presumed to be the embodiment of Rousseau’s general will, with far more power than any monarch or head of state in premodern societies. The US presidency is the apex of the world’s biggest and most powerful government and of the most expansive empire in world history. As such, the presidency represents the opposite of freedom. It is what stands between us and our goal of restoring our ancient rights. (Llewellyn Rockwell)
 
"In retrospect, there was no reason we should ever have expected Donald Trump to really embrace the “equal power” aspect of the presidency. Modern presidents have typically arrived at the White House after having served elsewhere in government, often the federal legislative branch. No one had come from running a private company. No one had come to power limited only by what his lawyers couldn’t wriggle him out of. But Trump did.

During his first four years in office and during the first few weeks of his return, Trump has worked deliberately and effectively to transform the presidency from being one-third of a governmental triumvirate into something more like what his ideological allies Vladimir Putin and Viktor Orban enjoy. He has been aided by remarkable capitulation from the purportedly equal branches.
As he and his team — most notably Elon Musk — run roughshod over legal and ethical boundaries, it’s been hard not to notice how unprepared the system is for an internal threat. One would in fact be justified in assuming that Trump’s failures to comply with the law might trigger no repercussions whatsoever, just as they didn’t during his first term in office and largely didn’t during his interregnum.

Who will police the president? Barring an outbreak of self-respect at the Capitol, the answers are unsatisfying. There are the courts, though that path tends to be slow and depends on respect for the courts’ authority. There’s also the public — the same public that Trump still insists wanted him to be president in November 2020. And that’s about it.
Illegality by the administration is not an abstract question. Trump and/or Musk have blocked congressionally authorized spending, gutted a congressionally instituted governmental agency, fired inspectors general without the proper notice, reportedly put confidential information at risk and overseen other changes that appear to violate the Constitution or the law.

“Trump is asserting a constitutional prerogative to ignore, disregard or even openly violate laws that are inconsistent with his policy,” New York University law professor Trevor Morrison told the Wall Street Journal. Writing on Substack, former executive-branch attorneys Bob Bauer and Jack Goldsmith suggest that it’s likely that the Trump administration “doesn’t care about compliance with current law, might not care about what the Supreme Court thinks either, and is seeking to effectuate radical constitutional change.”

In other words: Violations of legal and precedential boundaries are about proving that no one can police the president, as much as revealing that no one can.
This would explain why Trump is trying to effect change through executive orders rather than getting legislation passed by Congress. He could pressure his party’s slim majorities in the House and Senate to, say, dismantle the U.S. Agency for International Development. It would take political capital and require a public fight. But if his intent is to demonstrate that he doesn’t need to defer to the legislative branch — the “most aggressive” implementation of the idea that the president holds uncontested control over the executive branch, as Michael Gerhardt, a professor of constitutional law at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, put it in a phone call — then the executive order itself is central to the point. Or consider the executive order on TikTok which, as Bauer and Goldsmith note, challenges both the legislative branch (which passed the law banning it) and the Supreme Court (for upholding the ban).
What have we seen in response to Trump’s and Musk’s actions? Not a lot.

Law enforcement​

If Musk’s team that is slashing through government agencies lacks the proper authorization to obtain classified information or access certain offices, for example, the Department of Homeland Security might usually get involved. Even if any individuals were arrested for violating federal laws, though, Trump could immediately pardon them, granting them both retroactive and proactive immunity.


If you’re curious what approach the Justice Department might take: Interim U.S. attorney Edward R. Martin Jr. sent a public message on Monday assuring Musk that his office in D.C. would work to protect members of Musk’s team from the putative threat of being publicly identified. It is similarly likely that a Trump-controlled Justice Department — and by all appearances this one is shaping up to be just that — would decline to launch an investigation or appoint a special counsel to evaluate Trump’s and Musk’s actions."

Trump is taking this to new modern heights. I think though you meant to say this...

Who Can Police a President Who Breaks Laws I Don't Want Him To, But Will Leave My Guy Alone?
 
Trump is taking this to new modern heights. I think though you meant to say this...

Who Can Police a President Who Breaks Laws I Don't Want Him To, But Will Leave My Guy Alone?

I think you meant to say this.....

I Pretend(ed) to Be a Law and Order Guy and a Defender of the Constitution but I'm Actually a Partisan Hack so I'm Gonna Go Full Hypocrite for My One True Love Trump and Defend Everything he Does in the Face of the Institutions That Have Built and Maintained This Once Great Country

Like I said above. Aspire to be more like me. You can be a better version of yourself if you try.
 
We need some sort of constitutional police force independent of the federal government. Who else is going to tell King Trump no?
This is a capital idea. We could lock them in a room at birth with no access to media or information (other than the constitution) to ensure their independence and objectivity!
 
I think you meant to say this.....

I Pretend(ed) to Be a Law and Order Guy and a Defender of the Constitution but I'm Actually a Partisan Hack so I'm Gonna Go Full Hypocrite for My One True Love Trump and Defend Everything he Does in the Face of the Institutions That Have Built and Maintained This Once Great Country

Like I said above. Aspire to be more like me. You can be a better version of yourself if you try.
It would be a nice distraction if it weren't so serious. If the Dems weren't so dim we wouldn't have Trump.
 
Constitution created congress for a reason, but we know its filled with gremlin sycophants now.

This is why we need proportional representation.

In a 2 party system which is what is the natural outflow of the system we elect the members of the presidents party are going to be beholden to him.

In a proportional representation system other parties which are not as beholden to the president who might have otherwise formed a coalition with the president's party would likely break that coalition because they would see their power under attack.
 
This is why we need proportional representation.

In a 2 party system which is what is the natural outflow of the system we elect the members of the presidents party are going to be beholden to him.

In a proportional representation system other parties which are not as beholden to the president who might have otherwise formed a coalition with the president's party would likely break that coalition because they would see their power under attack.
In Ukraine, the pro West parties formed a coalition with Svoboda, Right Sector, and Azov. Look them up.

Parliamentarian governments tend to be much more stable.
 
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