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Why Social Programs (a.k.a easy money) Don't Work.

I really admire the many ways the right has managed to attack the new Pope.
because he's a leftist socialist commie , the Jesuits are the intelligence arm of the catholics, very political and new world order leftists, he will probably bring on ghey priests marrying each other and abortions galore to kill off the masses, intelligence just means: how can we kill off humanity
 
I really admire the many ways the right has managed to attack the new Pope.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! C'mon now! Forget "the Right" obsession for a moment. What he offered has some sensible points, too.

The meme you posted was insightful. But, the tractor dude made a good point. Basically, "Hey, Pope! Put your church's organized religion's money and wealth where your papal mouth is." I'm not going to get into the salvation part.
 
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The 'cause of poverty' is poor choices. Sadly many of those 'poor choices' result in more people that are 'educated and raised' by people who make poor choices.

You cannot 'give' your way to solving poverty. You can educate out of it...but the education isn't some useless college degree. The education these folks need is work ethic, financial management, and probably in many cases some form of addiction help.

If anyone rational happens to wonder on to this thread, please give this guy some "likes".
 
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I really admire the many ways the right has managed to attack the new Pope.

I find it ironic that people who hate everything about religion all of a sudden become huge fans because the Pope throws out some leftist propaganda.
FTR I've NEVER been a fan of the Catholic church. I wasn't raised in it...never had any affiliation with it...but can without a doubt tell you I've never been a fan. If anything the Catholic church has been responsible for most of the worst things ever associated with Christianity.

So I, unlike yourself, have been consistent. But then again I've seen nothing in your posts that makes me think you've ever done or espoused anything 'admirable'. ;)
 
The 'cause of poverty' is poor choices. Sadly many of those 'poor choices' result in more people that are 'educated and raised' by people who make poor choices.

You cannot 'give' your way to solving poverty. You can educate out of it...but the education isn't some useless college degree. The education these folks need is work ethic, financial management, and probably in many cases some form of addiction help.
For some the cause is poor choices. For others, it's lack of work, low wages, or both.

Currently, there are 12 million active job seekers in this country, but only 4 million jobs. That means that no matter how hard the country looks for work, 8 million will be left without jobs. It also means that it's not their fault, or even their choice that they can't find work. The work simply doesn't exist. So to blame them, call them lazy, or accuse them of being drug addicts, is too simplistic. You simply cannot blame someone for not having a job when there aren't enough jobs to go around.

And this just isn't a problem exclusive to the United States, either. Worldwide, there are less jobs than job seekers. Now whether that's due to bad economies, automation, or a combination of the two, the fact still does not change that we are and likely will continue to be in a worldwide job deficit.

How we get out of this I don't think anyone knows. But what we shouldn't do is to point the finger at the workers. For every 1 job, there are 3 people trying to get it. That's great for the 1 person who does finally get the job, but it's unfair to lay all the blame at the feet of the 2 job seekers who lost out.
 
That's ironic from the man who runs one of the wealthiest organizations in the world...who supposedly is charged with doing the Lord's work. Jesus didn't own a bunch of real estate holdings. He didn't hord art and cash. IF you're REALLY concerned about the poor the pope should start liquidating assets and start helping.

Instead they're pushing for amnesty down here (Texas) to get more wealth to one of their few remaining strongholds (the Hispanics) to generate more cash for the church.

I'm a Christian...but I'm no fan of the Catholic church. And if that offends I'd invite you to reflect on one thing...is your salvation based on the Vatican? Or the death of Jesus Christ on the cross? If you have to think about that...then I'm really praying for you.
That is very Christain of you.
 
I find it ironic that people who hate everything about religion all of a sudden become huge fans because the Pope throws out some leftist propaganda.
FTR I've NEVER been a fan of the Catholic church. I wasn't raised in it...never had any affiliation with it...but can without a doubt tell you I've never been a fan. If anything the Catholic church has been responsible for most of the worst things ever associated with Christianity.

So I, unlike yourself, have been consistent. But then again I've seen nothing in your posts that makes me think you've ever done or espoused anything 'admirable'. ;)

It isn't that he's tossing out lefty propaganda. It's that FINALLY a prominent spokesman for Christianity is actually saying things that sound consistent with what Jesus taught.

Not our fault that Jesus was a lefty.

Love the personal attacks. Glad to know you aren't a Christian. You are correct that much evil has been done by Christians and in the name of Christianity. What's a shame is that you still reject Christianity when it shows its good side. What does that say about you?
 
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The 'cause of poverty' is poor choices.

For some the cause is poor choices. For others, it's lack of work, low wages, or both.

Currently, there are 12 million active job seekers in this country, but only 4 million jobs. That means that no matter how hard the country looks for work, 8 million will be left without jobs. It also means that it's not their fault, or even their choice that they can't find work. The work simply doesn't exist. So to blame them, call them lazy, or accuse them of being drug addicts, is too simplistic. You simply cannot blame someone for not having a job when there aren't enough jobs to go around.

And this just isn't a problem exclusive to the United States, either. Worldwide, there are less jobs than job seekers. Now whether that's due to bad economies, automation, or a combination of the two, the fact still does not change that we are and likely will continue to be in a worldwide job deficit.

How we get out of this I don't think anyone knows. But what we shouldn't do is to point the finger at the workers. For every 1 job, there are 3 people trying to get it. That's great for the 1 person who does finally get the job, but it's unfair to lay all the blame at the feet of the 2 job seekers who lost out.

Well said. But you are being too kind to this kind of trog thinking.

The vast majority of the poverty, here and around the world - just as the vast majority of wealth - comes down to accidents of birth, upbringing, and relationship to power.
 
Whoa, whoa, whoa! C'mon now! Forget "the Right" obsession for a moment. What he offered has some sensible points, too.

The meme you posted was insightful. But, the tractor dude made a good point. Basically, "Hey, Pope! Put your church's organized religion's money and wealth where your papal mouth is." I'm not going to get into the salvation part.
We'll see. I don't really think it's a fair criticism to reject the Pope's good moves - as tractor does - or to attack those who post a quote from the Pope - as tractor did - just because Pope Frank hasn't succeeded in totally curing all the Church's ills.
 
Well said. But you are being too kind to this kind of trog thinking.

The vast majority of the poverty, here and around the world - just as the vast majority of wealth - comes down to accidents of birth, upbringing, and relationship to power.
Agreed, poor parenting...birthing kids they can't pay for, instilling an entitlement attitude versus valuing education
 
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We'll see. I don't really think it's a fair criticism to reject the Pope's good moves - as tractor does - or to attack those who post a quote from the Pope - as tractor did - just because Pope Frank hasn't succeeded in totally curing all the Church's ills.
I'm certainly not rejecting the Pope's good moves. He's drawing me closer to Catholicism.
 
That TED talk sounds great...but the reality is societies without 'job creators' don't prosper. If consumers were all you needed to be a super successful economy...China would be 3-4 times our size. Africa would be a major economic power. There are people in ALL those places dying to have what our poor take for granted here.

Yes, capitalism is competitive and that does mean you have to run a lean ship. BUT if creating full employment was the solution...the USSR would have been a runaway economic success.

You don't need to be some economics guru to see that free, open markets where taxes and regulations are limited produce the highest standards of living. What has happened in the past 4o years is that we've joined a world economy. The solution is to help develop these countries...not cripple ours.
 
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FTR I'm a CHRISTIAN, I thought that was pretty clear in my prior posts...evidently not. I'm NOT a Catholic, nor have I ever been. I've got no hate for Catholics as people...but I'm not pro Catholic the religion.

Part of that is the whole molestation situation. Part of that is the wealth situation (I don't want my church to be focused on worldly wealth...I understand the need for functional facilities...but the focus should be on saving people (Biblically) using our wealth, works, and deeds to help them). And part of it is that I've met plenty of 'Catholics' that don't even believe in God. They're 'born into it' like being an American.

That said, I'll never tell anyone I'm a good Christian...because I'm not. The day I think I am is the day I'll have lost my way...we all fall short of God's standards and I'll be needing as much grace as anyone on that day.
 
That TED talk sounds great...but the reality is societies without 'job creators' don't prosper. If consumers were all you needed to be a super successful economy...China would be 3-4 times our size. Africa would be a major economic power. There are people in ALL those places dying to have what our poor take for granted here.

Yes, capitalism is competitive and that does mean you have to run a lean ship. BUT if creating full employment was the solution...the USSR would have been a runaway economic success.

You don't need to be some economics guru to see that free, open markets where taxes and regulations are limited produce the highest standards of living. What has happened in the past 4o years is that we've joined a world economy. The solution is to help develop these countries...not cripple ours.

I think you are missing part of his point. You are correct that places like China and much of Africa have lots of people who want to consume But they aren't consumers - yet. They need to have both the wherewithal to consume and things to consume.

The desire is there. But you need desire plus money to have demand. And you need demand to ramp up production. And you need workers to carry out the production.

To the extent that the wealthy have wealth, they can prime the pump. So in that sense they can get things moving - either through philanthropy or by gambling on future demand - via the injection of money into the moribund economy. In other words, pure Keyensianism. So IF they do that, they can take some credit.

There are other ways to inject the kickstart money into a weak economy. Debt being the usual method. I recommend David Graeber's Debt: The First 5000 Years as a fine (and surprisingly interesting and readable) exploration.
 
Catholic Charities is one of the best charitable organizations there is. It scores high in a lot of categories. I give every year.

http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=10656#.VVoF5flVhBc

I agree that social programs per se are not effective in ending poverty, etc. I have dealt with this on the front lines for years now. Some people you just can't reach. There is no doubt. However, the amount we spend on food stamps, etc. is nothing compared to what the Pentagon wastes. There is no outrage on the right over the waste of the Pentagon and it wastes more in a year than all spending on social programs like food stamps do for over 25. Get some damn perspective.

suus ' absurdum
 
It isn't that he's tossing out lefty propaganda. It's that FINALLY a prominent spokesman for Christianity is actually saying things that sound consistent with what Jesus taught.

Not our fault that Jesus was a lefty.

Love the personal attacks. Glad to know you aren't a Christian. You are correct that much evil has been done by Christians and in the name of Christianity. What's a shame is that you still reject Christianity when it shows its good side. What does that say about you?
Now, that was well-played. I always find it interesting when the sub-clubs of the religion that sprang-up after Jesus manage to dislike and fight each other. Never a dull moment. They both agree on who the Savior and Son of God truly is, but still find ways to hate each other... priceless. The irony is like the humidity in Savannah in late July.
 
Also, while they may not be totally effective. If it helps keep some kids from going hungry, etc. Then it is at least something. As opposed to a white elephant like the F35. But, the poor kid doesn't make giant campaign contributions, but the execs at Lockheed-Martin do...But thats not welfare, right????
 
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Now, that was well-played. I always find it interesting when the sub-clubs of the religion that sprang-up after Jesus manage to dislike and fight each other. Never a dull moment. They both agree on who the Savior and Son of God truly is, but still find ways to hate each other... priceless. The irony is like the humidity in Savannah in late July.
According to Biblical accounts that fight started even while Jesus watched. Maybe Jesus and his movement was just a little more human than many give credit?
 
According to Biblical accounts that fight started even while Jesus watched. Maybe Jesus and his movement was just a little more human than many give credit?
Maybe. I've often been exposed to the interpretation that God, in order to better communicate with us (His creation), he had to "become one of us." Now, that makes sense, I guess, in a practical capacity. I hear the correlation of the shepherd trying to warn his flock, but they are sheep and not human. If only the shepherd could become a sheep to explain to them. But, even that is still from a human perspective. That's the thing with all of this type of discussion. We're still human and we can only be human WHILE we're alive. I do believe we can heighten our senses to be more in touch with what God is to each of us (or the ones who accept God as being real). That's another reason I opt-out of the religious clubs. They don't work for me effectively enough to put much trust in them.
 
Social programs don't work because Man is Pure Evil. And I do not mean that in a religious sense. The sooner libs figure that out the better off the entire world will be.

We could eliminate 100% worldwide all military spending forever, but the same % of poor would remain poor. The same people who have no healthcare and have no job and have no food would remain the same.

Why? Because the people in charge of the re-distribution will find a way to screw over the rest of our newly founded great society effectively removing all that $ that did go to military spending to themselves.

People will still seek power. And they will stop at nothing to attain it. This has always happened in the past, and it will always happen in the future.


I don't have a lot of faith in "my fellow man" to ever truly do the right thing.
 
We need to include farm subsidies in this give away debate . Why do we continue to prop up farmers. Let the free market system work.
 
Social programs don't work because Man is Pure Evil. And I do not mean that in a religious sense. The sooner libs figure that out the better off the entire world will be.
While I tend to share your pessimism, I think we are as good as we try to be and as evil as we allow ourselves to be. So I favor more of the trying and less of the allowing.

When philosophies that glorify selfishness, violence, exploitation, and oppression seem to be gaining popularity and power, it's time to be a little less concerned about tolerance and become a little more invested in pushing back.
 
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We need to include farm subsidies in this give away debate . Why do we continue to prop up farmers. Let the free market system work.

Absolutely agree. And the best part is it's not an argument for MORE welfare.
 
Social programs don't work because Man is Pure Evil. And I do not mean that in a religious sense. The sooner libs figure that out the better off the entire world will be.

We could eliminate 100% worldwide all military spending forever, but the same % of poor would remain poor. The same people who have no healthcare and have no job and have no food would remain the same.

Why? Because the people in charge of the re-distribution will find a way to screw over the rest of our newly founded great society effectively removing all that $ that did go to military spending to themselves.

People will still seek power. And they will stop at nothing to attain it. This has always happened in the past, and it will always happen in the future.


I don't have a lot of faith in "my fellow man" to ever truly do the right thing.
If this was true, poverty rates should remain steady without regard to social programs. Research that. I think you will find you are empirically incorrect.
 
While I tend to share your pessimism, I think we are as good as we try to be and as evil as we allow ourselves to be. So I favor more of the trying and less of the allowing.

When philosophies that glorify selfishness, violence, exploitation, and oppression seem to be gaining popularity and power, it's time to be a little less concerned about tolerance and become a little more invested in pushing back.

I think Man can do this eventually...maybe a thousand years from now, knowing that more and more people eventually will realize this to where the masses worldwide buy into truly changing.

I don't think he has the capability to do so now though for absolute certain. We're basically talking about changing millions of years of human nature relatively overnight. It will take...no kidding...100% participation for it to work. Every man, woman and child on earth has to buy into it.
 
Social programs don't work because Man is Pure Evil. And I do not mean that in a religious sense. The sooner libs figure that out the better off the entire world will be.

We could eliminate 100% worldwide all military spending forever, but the same % of poor would remain poor. The same people who have no healthcare and have no job and have no food would remain the same.

Why? Because the people in charge of the re-distribution will find a way to screw over the rest of our newly founded great society effectively removing all that $ that did go to military spending to themselves.

People will still seek power. And they will stop at nothing to attain it. This has always happened in the past, and it will always happen in the future.


I don't have a lot of faith in "my fellow man" to ever truly do the right thing.


^^^^^^ In simple terms. The hyper-aggression that got us to the top of the food chain, will be our undoing. He very well may be right. But heck I still say we all pat Hussein on the back for ramping up the nuclear arms race in the middle east. It can only have positive consequences.
 
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