Will people plz stop putting Horner in category of top PG's
- Thread starter tony0051
- Start date
Gessell and Dean Oliver also both beat Horner in the only stat that really matters - NCAA Tournament wins.
Deano would be amazing for our current team. Jeff would help, but not nearly in the same way.
At 5"11 without the afro, Dean made it to the NBA for a little bit. Jeff never got a sniff. I remember in 99 at our midnight madness dunk contest that Dean pulled off a between the legs dunk to win it. Once again something that Jeff could never do. Not to disparage Jeff at all because he was good for that mid-2000's team. But Dean also led us to a Big Ten Tournament championship. Plus took us to the sweet sixteen in 99. He just made everyone else on the floor better. The combo with him and Reggie took over the BTT in 01 to win it all in four games. Something that no other team has ever done. If I remember right he was at about a 5/1 a/t ratio towards the end of his career.
Does that help?
Thought I would add this, the DI had a picture of the dunk attempt at midnight madness. Horrible copy but visible here several pages down.
http://dailyiowan.lib.uiowa.edu/DI/1999/di1999-10-18.pdf
http://dailyiowan.lib.uiowa.edu/DI/1999/di1999-10-18.pdf
Sorry, don't buy it. Saw him play. He played on decent teams with good teammates and was a 4 year starter, but he was nothing special as a point. Certainly not in Horner's league.
what?
bad teams?
1998 20-11 (9-7 5th Big Ten) NIT 1st round
1999 20-10 (9-7 3rd Big Ten) NCAA Sweet 16
2000 14-16 (6-10 7th Big Ten)
2001 23-12 (7-9 6th Big Ten) BTT Champions / NCAA 2nd round
granted Alford's 1st year was pretty average..other than that the other three would not be considered bad...
1999 was good. 2000 was miserable. '98 and '01 were average. 20 wins seasons are respectable but compared to the teams Horner, BJ, Lester, and Dre played on they were bad.
Yea, I think I'm taking Lester pre knee injury. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Dre, but Ronnie was something else. Damn quick. Different players though, I'd be thrilled to have either anyday, and the baby faced assassin as well!
well if 20 wins is average...3 times
if a 2001 Big Ten Tournament championship is average..2nd round NCAA..
you didn't say they were bad compared to .... you said he played on bad teams...ya I would just sort of ignore this one if I was you...doesn't help your case.
for me...I really don't care ,,Oliver ... Horner ... Horner...Oliver...toss it up.
nothing against Woolridge...really good PG should have been B1G MVP in 1997...but Ronnie Lester (pre knee) was the best player in an Iowa uni I've seen in the years I been following Iowa BB (goes back to 1964-1965)...at any position...
Anybody who thinks Jeff Horner was better than Dean Oliver must not have ever seen the two of them play.
As far as PG's since 1980 go, it's Lester, BJ, Woolridge, Oliver, and then a substantial drop-off to Horner.
Jordan Bohannon has a chance to pass Horner, but I doubt he will reach Dean Oliver's level.
As far as PG's since 1980 go, it's Lester, BJ, Woolridge, Oliver, and then a substantial drop-off to Horner.
Jordan Bohannon has a chance to pass Horner, but I doubt he will reach Dean Oliver's level.
You are wrong in so many ways that it is amazing. Regardless of your errors, Jeff Horner was a very good point guard. I hope J-Bo will be even better , but lets just see how it plays out.
I loved Horner. He was a way better PG than Gesell. Put Horner on last years team and year before and they win more games. Best two PGs are assuming Lester and woolridge.
Wish Nebraska could give us another Woolridge or as ESPN would say "woodridge". I'm saying assuming on Lester is because he played when i wasn't alive. But have heard from many posters he was the best so will take their word for it.
Wish Nebraska could give us another Woolridge or as ESPN would say "woodridge". I'm saying assuming on Lester is because he played when i wasn't alive. But have heard from many posters he was the best so will take their word for it.
All three great ball handlers, shooters and could penetrate the lane. Like some of the posts have been saying lately about getting a good, quick point guard. Not a lot of them around that don't end up at the big boys. So, posters, get your sons to start dribbling at age 5 and be gifted with speed so they can go to Iowa and Make America Great, I mean make Iowa competitive.
Horner was an exceptional passer.
Chauncey Leslie might be the most underrated point guard we have had.....he was really good his senior year.
He was not an exceptional passer, he got away with a few no looks but had plenty deflected and stolen.
Also Leslie was not a great shooter. Very good slasher type player with the ability to get to the basket and score but he struggled as a jump shooter.
I agree.
Horner won a lot of games with his FTs.
I would say Bohannon the Freshman is better than Gesell the senior. Gesell was a pass first, distribute the ball, play defense PG with a very spotty record in crunch time.
No way. Woolridge carried that team his senior year. Armstrong was surrounded by quality players. Andre was and is the only player to EVER lead the big ten in both scoring and assits in the same season,
By that logic one could say ogelsby is better SG than gatens and Hulsksa since he was a part of more tourney wins.
Horner was a very good pg for Iowa. One thing bohannon will need to improve on is scoring inside 3pt arc. Right now it's a 3 or ft for most part but he will only get better and add that to his game hopefully.
Lester, Woolridge, BJ, Oliver, Horner, Gessell. The top 4 are a head above the rest, Oliver was the last complete PG at Iowa. By complete I mean he didn't have any holes in his game, so he could drive, shoot or pass. There isn't much a difference between Horner or Gessell because each of them had serious flaws to their game.
Horner wasn't quick so he struggled against more athletic players, couldn't drive well and was vulnerable to the press. He used his height, passing ability and shooting range to offset these problems. Gessell was athletic but just couldn't shoot consistently and by the time his junior year rolled around his late game/shot clock phobia was set in stone. I actually think he would have shattered the all time assist record at Iowa if the first 3 teams he was on could shoot the 3.. I lost count of how many wide open shots were missed by those teams, it was clank city.
Gessell's late game/shot clock phobia brings up a pet peeve of mine, something that I have gotten into several arguments about with people. I believe his phobia was directly caused by Fran's late/last second offensive strategy, the 'wait til the last 12 seconds to begin running a offense for the last shot' strategy. Sure it is run virtually at all levels in basketball but its a low percentage play any way you slice it and at Iowa I have never seen it work. In fact, it usually leads to a last second TO with not even being able to get a shot off and the reason for that is it requires the person handling the ball to be a complete PG, able to handle the intense pressure while making high level judgements. They are in college, not the NBA and requiring that sort ability isn't realistic so instead reduce the pressure and run a normal offense until about the 12 second mark before executing a called play. It reduces the pressure, makes the defense not know what is coming(lets face it, a blind squirrel by now should know what is coming from that offense) and gives more options.
Horner wasn't quick so he struggled against more athletic players, couldn't drive well and was vulnerable to the press. He used his height, passing ability and shooting range to offset these problems. Gessell was athletic but just couldn't shoot consistently and by the time his junior year rolled around his late game/shot clock phobia was set in stone. I actually think he would have shattered the all time assist record at Iowa if the first 3 teams he was on could shoot the 3.. I lost count of how many wide open shots were missed by those teams, it was clank city.
Gessell's late game/shot clock phobia brings up a pet peeve of mine, something that I have gotten into several arguments about with people. I believe his phobia was directly caused by Fran's late/last second offensive strategy, the 'wait til the last 12 seconds to begin running a offense for the last shot' strategy. Sure it is run virtually at all levels in basketball but its a low percentage play any way you slice it and at Iowa I have never seen it work. In fact, it usually leads to a last second TO with not even being able to get a shot off and the reason for that is it requires the person handling the ball to be a complete PG, able to handle the intense pressure while making high level judgements. They are in college, not the NBA and requiring that sort ability isn't realistic so instead reduce the pressure and run a normal offense until about the 12 second mark before executing a called play. It reduces the pressure, makes the defense not know what is coming(lets face it, a blind squirrel by now should know what is coming from that offense) and gives more options.
Horner was a good player with a cry baby attitude. I can't remember a Hawkeye that pouted about fouls/turnovers as much as him. I think he would have been a much better overall player with a different coach though. You can't except much from a player if their coach is a first rate DB like Alford was.
Horner was a very good point guard. Dean Oliver was an outstanding to great point guard.
Bohannon has shown the skills to be better than both. Bohannon is already way ahead of Mikey G's level at a comparable point in their careers.
Bohannon has shown the skills to be better than both. Bohannon is already way ahead of Mikey G's level at a comparable point in their careers.
Best point guards since 1980:
Ronnie Lester
BJ Armstrong
Andre Woolridge
You can argue about whether Woolridge should be second, but those are the top three and then there's a drop off. I think Bohannon will wind up being considered the fourth best PG since 1980. Which is pretty good.
Beats out Dean Oliver, who I would rate 5th. I'd put Gesell ahead of Horner. He was an important part of the first Iowa teams to go to three straight NCAA tourneys since B.J. Armstrong's teams. They did it in a weird way, with a different superstar each year: Devyn Marble, Aaron White, and Jared Uthoff. Now Peter Jok, but the team was just too raw early in the season. They grew a bunch, but got behind early with some bad losses and close losses.
Ronnie Lester
BJ Armstrong
Andre Woolridge
You can argue about whether Woolridge should be second, but those are the top three and then there's a drop off. I think Bohannon will wind up being considered the fourth best PG since 1980. Which is pretty good.
Beats out Dean Oliver, who I would rate 5th. I'd put Gesell ahead of Horner. He was an important part of the first Iowa teams to go to three straight NCAA tourneys since B.J. Armstrong's teams. They did it in a weird way, with a different superstar each year: Devyn Marble, Aaron White, and Jared Uthoff. Now Peter Jok, but the team was just too raw early in the season. They grew a bunch, but got behind early with some bad losses and close losses.
Magic point guard or Magic center? My questions also serves as remainder Magic was the best player in college/NBA history.
You had to have seen Ronnie Lester, before his knee injury. Penetrating, passing, shooters touchdown anywhere and he could just nearly singularly determine the pace of the game, speeding it up, slowing it down then change the pace again leaving you always on defense a step too slow or over playing and a step too quick. It was artistry in motion, like watching an artist paint the landscape as the daylight is changing the scene. It was even better than I can describe.
Meant shooters touch from anywhere on the court not "touchdown" as auto correct stated.
I take it you have no clue about basketball as a sport if you make insane comments like this
That's a great description and it highlights the key ingredient needed for a good PG. Change of pace. Woolridge wasn't the fastest/quickest player on the floor and he was basically 1 handed but he could play with his own pace. Same with Armstrong. Guys like Gesell and Bohannon and Horner don't have that. That doesn't mean that they can't be or weren't capable players. But that's what separates them from guys like Lester, BJ and Woolridge.
What makes you even begin to think that andre was one handed? You either never saw him or just didn't bother to comprehend what actually happens on the court. Andre had the best cross over dribble of any iowa pt guard including Lester. Was stronger than lester and was a better passer...going to his right and to his left.
I played with and against him many times. Or you could ask his former Iowa teammates. His off hand wasn't very developed for as good as he played. He went right 95% of the time and you still couldn't stop him. I love Andre. One of my all time favorite Hawks. I'm just calling it like it is.
You don't believe me, ask Kenyon the next time you see him. He'll say the same thing.
Played with andre every night...know kenyon, montier and others so don't have to ask them, know first hand.. you don't lead the league in both scoring and assists without being able to go to both your left and your right. So of course you always try to force a player like andre to got to his off hand but he would kill you with the cross over.....which you would know if you played against him. Just telling it like it is.
We'll have to agree to disagree. So does Kenyon. I had a killer crossover too but my off hand wasn't very good.
Why do you equate a crossover dribble to having a good off hand?
Ronnie is the best and it's not even close. Fact: you could combine the rest of the pg's
that played for Iowa and he still be the best.
If Ronnie didn't get hurt we win the NCAA in 1980.
Their is only one player that I have seen who I feel was better than Ronnie and that was Magic.
JBo has already passed Gesell and will end up 3-4 all time when he is done with his career.
that played for Iowa and he still be the best.
If Ronnie didn't get hurt we win the NCAA in 1980.
Their is only one player that I have seen who I feel was better than Ronnie and that was Magic.
JBo has already passed Gesell and will end up 3-4 all time when he is done with his career.
Because you can't cross over to your off hand if you can't use it...or at least it doesn't help you in doing it.
Id take Oliver over Horner everyday. The top 3 are pretty obvoius.
I think Reaves would have ranked pretty high if he had not been behind BJ.
I think Reaves would have ranked pretty high if he had not been behind BJ.
Kenny Arnold led Iowa in points and assists for Iowa's most recent Final Four team. Iowa just honored him and we've forgotten already? He was a stud and Iowa will rise to the heights we all aspire for them to reach once they start reeling in top Chicago players like Arnold and Lester again. It's one of the reasons I so desperately want Isaiah Moss to succeed.
Similar threads
