Williams for Ellingson?

[mazda1]

When we had 3 points on the floor I wondered if this was a little test to see if Christian could get some game experience while not having to fill the point guard role. It was a short test, but might be a beneficial exploration when we have a "safer" lead in future games.

What do you think?

 

[hawki1968]

Well, Fran was visibly upset with Williams and yanked him: Iowa set up a double back screen play against the zone for Williams to deliver an ally oop to Jarrod; it was WIDE open.

Instead, Williams lowered his head and drove into a crowd. He was pulled at the next horn.

I doubt we see Williams at all the next two games unless there is foul trouble.

 

[QChawks]

Nope. Ellington has more experience and has more experience right. While he doesn't bring much offensively yet, he's not a liability either.

Williams will get there.

 

[Ihawkhoops]

Williams athletically can hold his own. He has had what 3 minutes of PT in big ten play? He is going to make mistakes, but he needs to get PT (when possible) or we start next year with a PG with basically 0 game experience. MG or AC rolls an ankle, gets into foul trouble, or catches the flu and we will need Williams. Ellingson lacks confidence and is afraid to dribble without turning his back to the defender. The wide open looks he got in the non conference have disappeared, so I don't see him offering much this year.

 

[icantfindausernamethatisntused]

Williams athletically can hold his own. He has had what 3 minutes of PT in big ten play? He is going to make mistakes, but he needs to get PT (when possible) or we start next year with a PG with basically 0 game experience. MG or AC rolls an ankle, gets into foul trouble, or catches the flu and we will need Williams. Ellingson lacks confidence and is afraid to dribble without turning his back to the defender. The wide open looks he got in the non conference have disappeared, so I don't see him offering much this year.

I agree the game appears to be moving fast for Ellingson right now. If he can hit a few shots that would give him some confidence and help slow the game down for him a bit. I'm not counting him out, but he needs to turn it around quickly if he expects to be a contributor this year.

 

[Mohawkeye]

I think Baer has already moved ahead of Ellingson in the rotation and Williams might too. Fran was pretty mad at Williams, but if there is an opportunity to get him experience you have got to let him make some mistakes. He looks the part.

 

[TheHawkeyeDudeAbides]

Yes, Fran was upset with Williams and Uhl trying to do too much by themselves, instead of team passing. Uhl was forcing the action to show his home state crowd,instead looking for the best opportunity. Williams had more freedom but he seemed tobury his head and charge like a bull into traffic. But I do feel Williams is improving and Iowa needs a longer bench but Ellingson is fading into obscurity as he is not an active part of the offense.

I do want to give up on Ellingson but he is really a step and half behind the others. I am wondering when Iowa will play Fleming more. Fleming seems to more engaged on the bench and supportive.

 

[milehighhawkeye24]

Yes, Fran was upset with Williams and Uhl trying to do too much by themselves, instead of team passing. Uhl was forcing the action to show his home state crowd,instead looking for the best opportunity. Williams had more freedom but he seemed tobury his head and charge like a bull into traffic. But I do feel Williams is improving and Iowa needs a longer bench but Ellingson is fading into obscurity as he is not a active part of the offense.

I do want to give up on Ellingson but he is really a step and half behind the other. I am wondering when Iowa will play Fleming more. Fleming seems to more engaged on the bench and supportive.

I noticed that too with Fleming as of late, early in the season he looked like his dog died on the bench. However, at this point from all the scholarship players we have seen on the floor Fleming is by far the biggest liability by far.

 

[mazda1]

Q hawks I agree Brady is better today. I was wondering if Fran would try to get Williams some game experience using this sub. pattern.

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

Unless Mike or Sapp are injured or in foul trouble, it seems like Fran has decided to only use a guard off the bench for a few minutes. Uhl, Baer and Wagner are going to get the bulk of the minutes off the bench. Ellingson is mentally ahead of the other guards, but is more physically limited. I would guess that he will still be the first guard off the bench, but not for more than a couple of minutes a time.

 

[HawkLogic]

Unless Mike or Sapp are injured or in foul trouble, it seems like Fran has decided to only use a guard off the bench for a few minutes. Uhl, Baer and Wagner are going to get the bulk of the minutes off the bench. Ellingson is mentally ahead of the other guards, but is more physically limited. I would guess that he will still be the first guard off the bench, but not for more than a couple of minutes a time.

If we want to make a run for B1G title and post season, I think playing Williams has more upside. His length makes the defense/rebounding better and you can get stops. Williams just needs to not hunt shots like he did vs Rutgers.

Ellingson is challenged defensively....not big, not quick, and when he's left open he's clanging his 3pt shots. If Jok is 0 for a game sometime, maybe Ellingson can step up as 3pt shooter. He's more talented all around offensive layer than Ogelsby, but lacks size and athleticism.

 

[lovedwatchingLester]

Houstonred, I hear what you're saying and generally agree with you but still think that it will come down to matchups... for sure likely Purdue game the bigs, Uhl, Wagner, Baer, get majority of minutes but by the time we're facing the Hoosiers it may be the guards turn, time will tell as well as the situations.

 

[gablefan73]

Nope. Ellington has more experience and has more experience right. While he doesn't bring much offensively yet, he's not a liability either.

Williams will get there.

This is priceless. EllingTON isn't a liability but Woody is according to your other posts. Keep these gems coming.

 

[hansenhawk]

I wouldn't mind seeing flemming getting a few of those minutes instead.

 

[bravehawks1]

While Fran was upset with Williams for not executing the lob play, I am not sure that is the best play to ask a relatively inexperienced player to pull off just after coming in to the game. Doesn't mean you bury your head, but the lob play is based upon opportunity and touch. We rarely run that with Gesell so why is Williams expected to do that.

I was skeptical of Williams in preseason games, but he changed my opinion in the MSU game. Ellingson should be relegated to mop up work with Ukah and the walkons. Unfortunately, he does not appear physically talented enough to handle the speed of the game. Of course, Oglesby had the same problems and Fran still treated him like his pet for 4 years so I expect Brady will get the same benefit. I know this comes across as Brady bashing, but it is my realistic observation of his skill set versus Williams and maybe Fleming. Just hope Brady stays a good teammate even as his playing time is reduced (and I have no reason to think he will either), but don't need a cancer on the team at this point in the season when so much is possible.

 

[hawkeyemike23]

I was hoping we would pull away from Rutgers last night so Ellingson, Williams and Fleming could all get a few more minutes. Going to need one of them at some point down the stretch.

 

[Ronman]

I noticed that too with Fleming as of late, early in the season he looked like his dog died on the bench. However, at this point from all the scholarship players we have seen on the floor Fleming is by far the biggest liability by far.

I thought the last time Fleming got meaningful minutes, he played much more under control. I can only assume that he is struggling a bit in practice or he would be seeing the floor more often. Not giving up on him at all.

 

[gablefan73]

I would like to see Williams stay in the game even after a mistake as long as the game warrants. I don't want him thinking out there and worrying about being yanked if he messes up. Let his natural ability shine.

 

[milehighhawkeye24]

I wouldn't mind seeing flemming getting a few of those minutes instead.

Not sure what the infatuation with Flemming is? I think because he scored a ton in PTL people thought he was the next big thing. I think he will be a contributor for sure in the future, however; at this time not so much. I think he has settled down a bit in his last few outings, but he needs some time to get better before he sees any meaningful minutes and that seems pretty obvious to me. I feel as though Ellingson gets knocked quite a bit and from what I have seen he is much more athletic and a better defender than Flemming at this point. Not giving up on Flemming by any stretch of the imagination, but to say he should be getting more minutes is perplexing to me....especially from what we have seen on the court thus far

 

[HerkyFan]

Well, Fran was visibly upset with Williams and yanked him: Iowa set up a double back screen play against the zone for Williams to deliver an ally oop to Jarrod; it was WIDE open.

Instead, Williams lowered his head and drove into a crowd. He was pulled at the next horn.

I doubt we see Williams at all the next two games unless there is foul trouble.

Yep a couple of freshman plays that Fran wasn't pleased with. Christian needs to better understand his role on this team and not try to do things he isn't ready for.

 

[milehighhawkeye24]

I would like to see Williams stay in the game even after a mistake as long as the game warrants. I don't want him thinking out there and worrying about being yanked if he messes up. Let his natural ability shine.

It depends on the mistake, if it was a physical mistake I agree keep him in. But if he supposed to run a play (which I am sure they practiced numerous times if called in a game) and he just puts his head down and does his own thing...yank him so he learns. If he tried to run the lob and just doesn't execute, as a coach you can live with that. But when he just does his own thing, IMO that warrants a good teaching moment. Behaviors that are observed are behaviors that are allowed, if you don't want that to happen in the court you address that immediately otherwise it will continue.

 

[EpenesaEpenesa]

It depends on the mistake, if it was a physical mistake I agree keep him in. But if he supposed to run a play (which I am sure they practiced numerous times if called in a game) and he just puts his head down and does his own thing...yank him so he learns. If he tried to run the lob and just doesn't execute, as a coach you can live with that. But when he just does his own thing, IMO that warrants a good teaching moment. Behaviors that are observed are behaviors that are allowed, if you don't want that to happen in the court you address that immediately otherwise it will continue.

Id highly doubt he completely disregarded Mccaffreys instructions on purpose. Im assuming 1 of 2 things. Either he didnt get the play or he didnt think it was there. If he didnt think it was there, he tried to make an aggressive play toward the rim when he saw the lane open. I liked the aggression. He didnt finish, but hes not tentative and scared either. Keep attacking kid

 

[gablefan73]

Id highly doubt he completely disregarded Mccaffreys instructions on purpose. Im assuming 1 of 2 things. Either he didnt get the play or he didnt think it was there. If he didnt think it was there, he tried to make an aggressive play toward the rim when he saw the lane open. I liked the aggression. He didnt finish, but hes not tentative and scared either. Keep attacking kid

Exactly. It is pretty damn obvious that Williams isn't just going to ignore the coaches. The things people think of on here.

 

[Teampupandsuds]

Ellingson's role on the team was/ is to provide floor spacing with his 3 point shooting, a similar role to Ogelsby. The difference between the two are this years team has plenty of shooting and he is not needed especially since he's not making his shot. Josh was out there to at least provide the threat of a 3 point shot and create space for others. My point being Ellingson isn't needed right now and should be replaced by Williams if he can play under control and provide aspects that Ellingson cannot; defense, rebounding, and point guard duties.

 

[MitchL]

With Iowa having a front loaded schedule I think the chances may be limited for a bit.

The last half of the B1G season should allow for lots of time for the top reserves.

 

[milehighhawkeye24]

Id highly doubt he completely disregarded Mccaffreys instructions on purpose. Im assuming 1 of 2 things. Either he didnt get the play or he didnt think it was there. If he didnt think it was there, he tried to make an aggressive play toward the rim when he saw the lane open. I liked the aggression. He didnt finish, but hes not tentative and scared either. Keep attacking kid

Well obviously he did something to warrant Fran's wrath and I am quite certain Fran is not going to just go off for nothing. And the fact that is was not only there but I have never seen a lob play more open than that one.....it would be like if a football coach called a slant or quick screen to a WR and there was not a CB on that side of the field and QB audibles to a sneak....

 

[EpenesaEpenesa]

Well obviously he did something to warrant Fran's wrath and I am quite certain Fran is not going to just go off for nothing. And the fact that is was not only there but I have never seen a lob play more open than that one.....it would be like if a football coach called a slant or quick screen to a WR and there was not a CB on that side of the field and QB audibles to a sneak....

I guess youre right, Christian Williams completely disregarded Fran Mccaffery's instructions on purpose. Im assuming your view from the recliner was the same viewpoint Williams had of the play

 

[MitchL]

I guess youre right, Christian Williams completely disregarded Fran Mccaffery's instructions on purpose.

We're not Kentucky or Duke. Our freshmen come in and they will make freshmen mistakes. I would bet he doesn't make THAT error again.

he will be a big contributor down the road. I like his athleticism.

 

[milehighhawkeye24]

Exactly. It is pretty damn obvious that Williams isn't just going to ignore the coaches. The things people think of on here.

I never said that he completely ignored the coach, but coaches generally only get that worked up when a player makes a mental mistake....IMO that is probably what had happened in this case. It could have been lack of focus, not getting the play, miscommunication, or just simply driving into a bad situation...IDK but he obviously did something to get Fran's rage and knowing Fran is a pretty good/fair coach I would assume it was something he did that was a mental mistake. Just my opinion because I have never seen Fran freak out like that unless it was an effort or mental thing....he tends to tell guys to keep shooting, driving, etc to build confidence on the physical aspects and will jump the shit out a player if it is effort or mental...do you disagree or are you just butt hurt for no reason?

 

[milehighhawkeye24]

I guess youre right, Christian Williams completely disregarded Fran Mccaffery's instructions on purpose. Im assuming your view from the recliner was the same viewpoint Williams had of the play

I am just speculating as to why Fran would get on him like that, nothing more noting less. Why do you think he got his ass handed to him by Fran???

 

[MNHawk]

If we want to make a run for B1G title and post season, I think playing Williams has more upside. His length makes the defense/rebounding better and you can get stops. Williams just needs to not hunt shots like he did vs Rutgers.

Ellingson is challenged defensively....not big, not quick, and when he's left open he's clanging his 3pt shots. If Jok is 0 for a game sometime, maybe Ellingson can step up as 3pt shooter. He's more talented all around offensive layer than Ogelsby, but lacks size and athleticism.

Williams has more upside than Ellingson, without a doubt, but last night neither of them made constributions in their short time on the floor so their minutes were cut short. Wagner, on the other hand, made contributions quickly and he should continue to get more minutes than both of them. Same with Baer.

Lots of talk on this board about getting Williams experience this year whenever possible, since we lose 2 senior point guards. I agree with that, but until Williams makes more out of his short time on the floor, he will continue to see very little action. Upside in a player won't get you minutes over a guy who makes a difference, unless the game is a blowout.

 

[milehighhawkeye24]

I guess youre right, Christian Williams completely disregarded Fran Mccaffery's instructions on purpose. Im assuming your view from the recliner was the same viewpoint Williams had of the play

Furthermore, I am the one siding with the coach who has 30+ years experience, coaching a top 10 program right now, seems to be pushing the right buttons at this point, etc....I simply said Fran pulled him and got in his shit for a reason and I would assume it was a mental mistake on his part....sorry if I think Fran probably knows what he is doing and I can respect his decisions for that....if you guys think you know more than Fran so be it, but if he decides to pull a kid and yell at him I am assuming there is a reason....

 

[EpenesaEpenesa]

I am just speculating as to why Fran would get on him like that, nothing more noting less. Why do you think he got his ass handed to him by Fran???

Who knows. I wasnt in the huddle

 

[DanL53]

I'm not going to couch coach what McCaffery should do this season with our freshmen. I think he's shown that if they can play they will. Certainly Wagner and Baer have seen the court. The second thing I'm not going to do is speculate as to who might be a "bust", or end up transferring. I know it is always quite possible that a player won't succeed in earning many minutes of play. Likewise, obviously any player can decide to transfer and these days roughly two per D1 team do so every year!

I will express my observations. As to why certain players aren't on the court much? We have four quite talented seniors, one junior who is emerging as a top level Big Ten player, and a sophomore who shows signs of doing the same down the road. That's our top six! Anybody else is going to start out at #7 at best. So clearly we're looking for role players to fill limited minutes. The season started out with Ellingson at #7, and Dale Jones looked to be #8.

Now as to the capabilities of the freshmen? Including Wagner and Ellingson? Baer, Williams, Fleming and even the redshirts Hutton and Moss? All seven of em!?!??

I'm going to try to express this a different way than usual. I have watched them play as much as I can be it on video or at the PTL. I have read as much as I can about them. But, forget what I think I've seen.

If I were a blind man I would know this:

1) Yes we've had some guys pick up and leave after limited minutes on the court. Three in the first five seasons. Ingram, Meyer and Dickerson. So it does happen, and will continue to happen.
2) But as to guessing who will fail? Gesell has been criticized, Woodbury, Clemmons, Jok and Uhl. In my opinion all five have been heavily criticized at times, some worse than others. I won't include Uthoff though I can recall that he doesn't get excited enough, can't play the four and get rebounds and oh no, he bulked up too much since last year this is going to turn out like Basabe.

And yet, through the attrition and the inept players we currently have we're doing quite well this year.

So we must have the luckiest coach in the history of the NCAA's and I see no reason to expect that to change.

 

[HoustonREDHawk]

Fran has done a masterful job of substituting over the past month, so I am going to trust his opinion about who should be playing a lot more than the couch taters on this board. He apparently doesn't believe that his young guards are ready for more minutes. He now trusts Uhl, Baer, and Wagner, and as long as Mike, Sapp and Pete are able to play, we have a pretty effective rotation going, as is.

 

[hooper56]

I wouldn't mind seeing flemming getting a few of those minutes instead.

Why? Do you enjoy turnovers, quick shots, and no defense? Flemming has a bright future but has not shown this yet in a Hawkeye uniform. I have every confidence he will get there but not this season. There may come a time when we need him this year and he does seem engaged on the bench. But right now Brady is infinitely the better option between the two.

 

[icwesthawk]

I wrote about it already, but I loved the 3 pg lineup. I think it could really be good although without Jok in there, Uthoff is really the only scorer on the floor. I think we will see more of that lineup and I think it's a really good thing.

 

[CanadaHawk]

I'm hoping Williams settles down and gets some minutes coming up for immediate reasons. If MG's hammy slows him in the next few games, we may need Christian for spot minutes in important contests at PG.

 

[bravehawks1]

I agree Fran probably knows best, but he does have a track record of pulling freshman at any mistake. He did that to Oglesby his freshman year, but OGL lived through it and shot well his sophomore year and was forever in Fran's good graces. He did that to Olesani early in his career. He did it to Jok his freshman year (primarily for not playing defense) and even did it to Uhl a couple times last year. If I had to conclude, he probably gets his message to the young players with this quick benching but it appears to work out okay.
Unfortunately, Fran is not shy about doing this and will walk out to half court to meet a player if it occurs at a timeout. I'm not a big fan of showing the player up in that fashion though. Just hoping Williams is quick study and works just that much harder to prove it was a learning experience.

 

[hawkeyeguy69]

When we had 3 points on the floor I wondered if this was a little test to see if Christian could get some game experience while not having to fill the point guard role. It was a short test, but might be a beneficial exploration when we have a "safer" lead in future games.

What do you think?

I think it is a good safe way to get Williams in the game, set up a play or two for him, and see what he can do. He figde up on the one. But live and learn. He needs the experience like that. Coach putting the pressure him to perform a specific play, then execute... It did not work out well. But again, live and learn.

Fran needs to setup plays for Williams to be the key to a set play. Then just have him play the game where he does not need to perform a specific, set play. And do what he does everyday without the pressure to think on the execution of that set play. It is twofold; an after timeout experience, then normal trip down the court experience.

Williams will not get much experience. But he NEEDS experience. However Fran can do it, I am good with...