Wrestle-Off Mentality

[WesternPA]

Having never been a wrestler (regrettably), I always have wondered about the interpersonal dynamics of guys at the same weight. Obviously, if you are in the Hawk room, you were most likely "The Guy" on your high school team. Wrestlers seem to be inherently competitive athletes who exude a certain level of confidence. How do guys that are perennial winners handle not being a starter? It is very hard for me to believe that hard feelings never arise.

Don't get me wrong - just being in the Iowa team picture makes one incredibly elite, but a few of those guys never compete.

I would like to hear about the experiences of those that have been in that situation, whether you were the starter or a backup.

 

[24 so far]

Having never been a wrestler (regrettably), I always have wondered about the interpersonal dynamics of guys at the same weight. Obviously, if you are in the Hawk room, you were most likely "The Guy" on your high school team. Wrestlers seem to be inherently competitive athletes who exude a certain level of confidence. How do guys that are perennial winners handle not being a starter? It is very hard for me to believe that hard feelings never arise.

Don't get me wrong - just being in the Iowa team picture makes one incredibly elite, but a few of those guys never compete.

I would like to hear about the experiences of those that have been in that situation, whether you were the starter or a backup.

Tarphawk was one of those guys, and has posted about his experiences on here many times. IIRC, he had a blog going at one time or another on the subject as well (might be piss poor memory on my part).

Also, Randy Lewis wrote some articles online for some wrestling publication several years ago, that should be searchable to obtain I would think. He was clearly a starter! Ha! I've talked to him many times, but the thing I remember most from those articles was how he got his ass kicked by an "old" Dan Gable as he was preparing for and eventually winning the Olympics. Very interesting stuff.

 

[WesternPA]

Tarphawk was one of those guys, and has posted about his experiences on here many times. IIRC, he had a blog going at one time or another on the subject as well (might be piss poor memory on my part).

Also, Randy Lewis wrote some articles online for some wrestling publication several years ago, that should be searchable to obtain I would think. He was clearly a starter! Ha! I've talked to him many times, but the thing I remember most from those articles was how he got his ass kicked by an "old" Dan Gable as he was preparing for and eventually winning the Olympics. Very interesting stuff.

Thanks 23. I will try to look some of that up.

But let me ask this, take a guy like Perez Perez. By all accounts an outstanding individual and an outstanding athlete to even be on the squad. Just wondering how a guy like that mentally adapts to relative anonymity when he probably could have gone on to to a "big fish in a small pond" at a D3 school. Any insights?

 

[Inthecircle]

Tarphawk was one of those guys, and has posted about his experiences on here many times. IIRC, he had a blog going at one time or another on the subject as well (might be piss poor memory on my part).

Also, Randy Lewis wrote some articles online for some wrestling publication several years ago, that should be searchable to obtain I would think. He was clearly a starter! Ha! I've talked to him many times, but the thing I remember most from those articles was how he got his ass kicked by an "old" Dan Gable as he was preparing for and eventually winning the Olympics. Very interesting stuff.

At one time I had a print copy of “The House That Gable Built.”
It was excerpt from Lewis taking Gable on just after he won a world gold. When I read it, I couldn’t believe the results.
I haven’t been able to find the article.

 

[IAChief32]

Thanks 23. I will try to look some of that up.

But let me ask this, take a guy like Perez Perez. By all accounts an outstanding individual and an outstanding athlete to even be on the squad. Just wondering how a guy like that mentally adapts to relative anonymity when he probably could have gone on to to a "big fish in a small pond" at a D3 school. Any insights?

A good example of this was at Okie State last year. Due to decisions made by John, guys moved down a weight to include his son who eventually beat out 2AA Chandler Rogers who ended up wrestling his last match in a dual. Didn’t think it was smart then, still do not. But if Rogers couldn’t beat a sucked down Smith, than he wasn’t going to beat the field.

We have a few guys in that position. For example, I think Glosser, Turk, Brands, Happel and a few other guys could start on many D-1 teams and dominate at lower division schools. But many got this way just by being in our room. So one can try to improve or transfer like Gunther did to Illinois or Rathbun to Wartburg (he won a title there). Btw, very interested to see how Glosser does down at 149.

That’s why I tip the cap to “room guys.” Here is Tarp’s blog: http://wrestlingforgable.blogspot.com/?m=1

 

[Gobblin]

I think ‘49 is going to be a bigger dogfight than people realize.. 3 real hungry, talented kids there.

 

[WesternPA]

A good example of this was at Okie State last year. Due to decisions made by John, guys moved down a weight to include his son who eventually beat out 2AA Chandler Rogers who ended up wrestling his last match in a dual. Didn’t think it was smart then, still do not. But if Rogers couldn’t beat a sucked down Smith, than he wasn’t going to beat the field.

We have a few guys in that position. For example, I think Glosser, Turk, Brands, Happel and a few other guys could start on many D-1 teams and dominate at lower division schools. But many got this way just by being in our room. So one can try to improve or transfer like Gunther did to Illinois or Rathbun to Wartburg (he won a title there). Btw, very interested to see how Glosser does down at 149.

That’s why I tip the cap to “room guys.” Here is Tarp’s blog: http://wrestlingforgable.blogspot.com/?m=1

Interesting......thanks Chief!

 

[Ihawkd9times]

I think ‘49 is going to be a bigger dogfight than people realize.. 3 real hungry, talented kids there.

Glosser vs Turk is gonna be real interesting.

In the spirit of this thread I really feel for a kid like Glosser. Could be starting for another D1 team or a National Champ in another division.

IMO one thing that would come into play for a kid is how much they like the college town atmosphere. For me Id rather live in Iowa City and graduate because I loved it. But there are some kids that like a small town feel that prefer D3. If I was in that position of being a great backup I probably would have considered transferring to another big ten campus to start. Much like that 165 guy who went back to the Illini.

 

[lionlover]

Thanks 23. I will try to look some of that up. @Western PA

But let me ask this, take a guy like Perez Perez. By all accounts an outstanding individual and an outstanding athlete to even be on the squad. Just wondering how a guy like that mentally adapts to relative anonymity when he probably could have gone on to to a "big fish in a small pond" at a D3 school. Any insights?

"Gable: The Punisher

It was 1972. I first heard of Dan Gable when I was in 7th grade. People told me that he was the best wrestler in the world. Nobody could beat him. At the time, I was a three-time state AAU age-group champion, and a national AAU age-group champion. My career record at the time was 60-0. I remember thinking, if I was as big as Dan Gable, I could beat him.

Nineteen years later, I would find out I was wrong. In 1991, I was thirty years old and I wrestled at 149.5 pounds, the same weight-class that Gable won the Olympics (without giving up a single point!) in 1972.

I wrestled a dual meet against the 1989 world champion Russian, Boris Budaev. I was pounding him 13-4 and ended up sticking him. One week later, I asked Gable if he wanted to wrestle. At the time Gable weighed about 160 and was 41 years old. I was up to about 163. Gable said yes but wanted to warm up a bit. I just sat there and watched him. Gable went through a 45-minute session of drilling and stretching, moving around, getting ready to tangle with yours truly.

By this time his shirt was drenched. He was ready to go to war. I warmed up in about 30 seconds. I slapped his hand and asked him if he was ready. Gable said, “go” and I jumped across the mat and threw him with what I would call a Steven Segal-type judo throw and headlock. He went right to his back.

Two seconds later, Gable scored a reversal. For the next forty-five minutes he tortured me. What he likes to do is put you on your back, bar your arm and torture you. Then he will sort of let you off your back, but he will keep the bar arm with just your shoulder down. Sort of like isometrics, only diabolical. Finally, he will let you go and when you get back on your feet, you can barely feel your right arm.

Then, he’ll take you down again and start on your left shoulder. Pain must balance. When you finally get back on your feet both shoulders are numb. Your arms are useless. Death is a fleeting moment away.

After that “workout” somebody asked me how I did against Gable. I said “Oh, he beat me about 50-5.” They said “no way.” I said “way.” Actually the score was 50-4!

I’ve spoken with hundreds of people who went one-on-one with Gable in the room and they all say the same thing. Unless you have actually wrestled him, you can not understand what it is like. I have wrestled the best in the world " having competed against 27 world and Olympic medalists and countless others in practice. Nothing is like wrestling Dan Gable."

 

[Mpchillin]

So one can try to improve or transfer like Gunther did to Illinois or Rathbun to Wartburg (he won a title there).

Matt Malcom as well, D2 title last year for Nebraska-Kearney.

 

[butchinmi]

Best man at my wedding was a guy who never started for Iowa. He never once thought about leaving (that I know of) and was a part of many NC teams. Loved it, loved Gable, loved the grind, love being part of the team and felt it made him the best wrestler he could possibly be. He didn't care about winning a DIII title or being the man. Just the best he could be.

For him, I would say it was how he was raised, the relationships he had, the respect he had for Gable and the other coaches, his brother was a National Champ. It was home for him no matter if he was in the light or not. I think it was part of developing a pretty amazing guy.

Another kid from my hometown went to ISU, transfered to Wartburg and was a National Champ (maybe 2x) if I recall. I would tell you his is a great kid and not selfish at all, but made that decision and it worked out.

I, on the other hand, played baseball at the DIII level, didn't start much early on and in a selfish summer where summer ball went well, I about transfered to Westmar so I could play more. Decided against it because of my friends and luckily I didn't because Westmar was no more later that year.

All that to say this. I respect the hell out of someone that can put themselves through 4-5 years of an Iowa Wrestling room and never start and show up every day to personally get better. Companies should line up to hire those kids because they are unselfish, hard working, tough SOB's that make everyone around them better.

 

[KujawaFan]

Butch - 100 percent spot on. I can’t believe the sacrifice there “room” guys give. They do all the hard stuff without the limelight and still manage academics while getting beat up by Lee or Marinelli, etc. daily. Give me a guy like that any day of the week in the business world. Run through a wall without the need for self glory only the sacrifice for the the betterment of the team.

 

[butchinmi]

Kujawa - exactly. I have a small business and my two employees are wrestlers. Ok, not entirely true. One is my wife. No pics.

 

[24 so far]

I think ‘49 is going to be a bigger dogfight than people realize.. 3 real hungry, talented kids there.

Not real sure about Turk, but Glosser is interesting there. I agree Lugo will have his hands full.

 

[KujawaFan]

Good work Butch. I’m sure your wife and you have some good “matches.” To give my 2 cents on the mentality it seems to take not just a love for the sport but also an obsession with the sport. I loved wrestling but when I was done senior year of HS I was physically and mentally burnt out. The thought of weight cutting and all the bumps and bruises while trying to balance school a few months later as a freshman in college there was no way. I loved the sport but to get my ass kicked and the time commitment and not be varsity I preferred beer and the kinder sex in college. That’s why these “room” guys are so impressive. All guts no glory and absolutely necessary for the benefit of the team.

 

[MVPFAN]

I know a guy (small % scholly) who ended up starting at Iowa for 1 year and part of another. At that time some of his HS teammates were wrestling D2/D3 with top level results. I asked him after his first couple of years if he had thought about transferring to a school like Wartburg (I have no doubt he would could have been a NC there). Without hesitation he said no way. He loved being a part of an elite program at the highest level. He felt he was an important part of the team even if he was not assured of ever starting.

 

[Ihawkd9times]

Not real sure about Turk, but Glosser is interesting there. I agree Lugo will have his hands full.

I think Turk will beat Glosser but we shall see

 

[Inthecircle]

"Gable: The Punisher

It was 1972. I first heard of Dan Gable when I was in 7th grade. People told me that he was the best wrestler in the world. Nobody could beat him. At the time, I was a three-time state AAU age-group champion, and a national AAU age-group champion. My career record at the time was 60-0. I remember thinking, if I was as big as Dan Gable, I could beat him.

Nineteen years later, I would find out I was wrong. In 1991, I was thirty years old and I wrestled at 149.5 pounds, the same weight-class that Gable won the Olympics (without giving up a single point!) in 1972.

I wrestled a dual meet against the 1989 world champion Russian, Boris Budaev. I was pounding him 13-4 and ended up sticking him. One week later, I asked Gable if he wanted to wrestle. At the time Gable weighed about 160 and was 41 years old. I was up to about 163. Gable said yes but wanted to warm up a bit. I just sat there and watched him. Gable went through a 45-minute session of drilling and stretching, moving around, getting ready to tangle with yours truly.

By this time his shirt was drenched. He was ready to go to war. I warmed up in about 30 seconds. I slapped his hand and asked him if he was ready. Gable said, “go” and I jumped across the mat and threw him with what I would call a Steven Segal-type judo throw and headlock. He went right to his back.

Two seconds later, Gable scored a reversal. For the next forty-five minutes he tortured me. What he likes to do is put you on your back, bar your arm and torture you. Then he will sort of let you off your back, but he will keep the bar arm with just your shoulder down. Sort of like isometrics, only diabolical. Finally, he will let you go and when you get back on your feet, you can barely feel your right arm.

Then, he’ll take you down again and start on your left shoulder. Pain must balance. When you finally get back on your feet both shoulders are numb. Your arms are useless. Death is a fleeting moment away.

After that “workout” somebody asked me how I did against Gable. I said “Oh, he beat me about 50-5.” They said “no way.” I said “way.” Actually the score was 50-4!

I’ve spoken with hundreds of people who went one-on-one with Gable in the room and they all say the same thing. Unless you have actually wrestled him, you can not understand what it is like. I have wrestled the best in the world " having competed against 27 world and Olympic medalists and countless others in practice. Nothing is like wrestling Dan Gable."

That’s exactly the story I was looking for! When I initially read it, That guy who Gable put it to was....Randy Lewis. I may have it crossed up in my ol noggin. Nonetheless, of all the Gable books and stories I’ve read about the wrestling side of his life, this one is #1.
This spring at the May banquet, a former Hawkeye told a story similar about the Banach brothers (Ed & Lou). Group of three, 30 second go’s. Except, Gable never rotated out. Ed got furious, “this isn’t fair, Fu Gable”

 

[funnyfletcher]

Kujawa - exactly. I have a small business and my two employees are wrestlers. Ok, not entirely true. One is my wife. No pics.

Your wife is in my yearbook. Haha

 

[KTG119]

Tarphawk was one of those guys, and has posted about his experiences on here many times. IIRC, he had a blog going at one time or another on the subject as well (might be piss poor memory on my part).

http://wrestlingforgable.blogspot.com/

some great stuff

 

[24 so far]

I see the fellas got you all hooked up with what I was referring to. Good job guys!

 

[HoundedHawk]

At one time I had a print copy of “The House That Gable Built.”
It was excerpt from Lewis taking Gable on just after he won a world gold. When I read it, I couldn’t believe the results.
I haven’t been able to find the article.

I think it was something like "The House of Seven Gables."

 

[russelscout]

http://wrestlingforgable.blogspot.com/

some great stuff

This could be a book that I would buy. Ive read through it a couple times.

 

[butchinmi]

Your wife is in my yearbook. Haha

I was going to say, funny fletcher might post some embarrassing photos of my wife, but I can't!

 

[funnyfletcher]

I was going to say, funny fletcher might post some embarrassing photos of my wife, but I can't!

Haha, I don't have any! I'm sure there are some on Facebook though

 

[funnyfletcher]

http://wrestlingforgable.blogspot.com/

some great stuff

I loved reading it! He mentioned a church in Tulsa that he went to, I used to see that church every time I'd look out my kitchen window when I lived there. You can see that church in The Outsiders movie, too! Stay gold and black

 

[mgogel]

I was a "room guy" and I can tell you what the experience was like for me. I placed at State a few times and was a state runner-up as a senior in high school. I did have some wins over wrestlers with much better credentials during the course of my career, but I never won a state championship. The reason I went Division I was that I didn't see the point in competing in a division that didn't include the best competition. I've never understood flighting in golf tournaments either. I wouldn't really know where I stack up if I don't compete in the highest division...so Division I made sense. I went to Iowa because my girlfriend at the time was there (although I used other rationale to justify it at the time).

My experience changed over time. The summer before my freshman year I wrestled Doug Schwab in a freestyle match and lost on a last second takedown. I went in thinking that I could make varsity and be competitive for the team. However, I think making varsity was more of a goal than an expectation. In my freshman year, I think I was pretty competitive with most of the other freshmen around my weight...the older guys could hammer pretty much all of us. There is nuance to that...I definitely wrestled better earlier in goes than late...there were elite guys that I'd wrestle even or better for 5 minutes...only to have them wear me out. The primary gauge I had for my potential was how I fared in the room. After a year, I think I thought I could get in the line-up...how do you judge a practice where you probably led by 10 points after the first 5 minutes and lost by 30 after 20 minutes?

Prior to Iowa, I considered myself a hard worker when it came to training & pursuit of improvement. I loved to do strength training. It was pretty apparent to me after my first season that my cardio condition needed to improve to stay competitive for the long goes we wrestled. Sometimes I look back and wonder whether it was real...but it seemed like we'd wrestle goes that were 20 plus minutes long. Anyway, getting to elite "wrestling" cardio condition is extremely difficult. I never made the sacrifices necessary to get there and always operated in somewhat of a "survival" mode of getting through practice (not flurrying continuously or initiating continuously for fear of wearing out).

There are a number of things that I reflect on to try to figure out what happened and you see bits and pieces of these things come out whenever there's a documentary or a media insight into a program.

Every Dog Has Its Day - there is a lot of fluidity in terms of how you fare against your teammates in the room. Some days you feel great...some days you don't. Some days you're heavy...some days you're light. On any given day, a "room guy" could take it to one of the stars on the team. If you go and watch one practice...you get a small sample of what happens. I remember wrestling Terry Brands shortly before he left for the 2000 Olympics. I was bigger than him. I scored the first 3 takedowns of the match we wrestled...he took me down and gutted me until a tech fall. I had good days against Mike Zadick, Doug Schwab, and others. I also had days where those guys beat me to a pulp. All of them fared consistently better than I did in real competition...but when you wrestle every day...room guys have their moments of success.

Outside Looking In - There were many times I felt like I was on the outside looking in. The coaches want to field the most successful team that they can and they have an idea of what guys can deliver the performance they need. They invest in those guys with individual workouts, attention, and coaching. It's easy at the time to believe that its favoritism or is the cause of performance differentials among teammates. There was a practice when I was wrestling well against Mike Zadick and I can remember Tom Brands coaching him from the pillar. Whenever I would score...Tom would yell something like, "why do you let him get that" or "quit letting him have that leg." When you're the guy being coached against...the "let him" part of the communication grates on you. It seems dismissive of your performance. That particular day, wound up with a situation where I had Mike's leg high in the air and he was able to scramble out and take me down. My emotions boiled over and wound up with me bawling & shouting at Tom and storming out. Don't get the wrong idea...Mike beat me up many, many times. In hindsight, I think that the guys getting more attention were earning it. I was not winning sprint laps. I was not coming on strong when we were all fatigued at the end of practice. I was not winning open tournaments. The job of the coaches was to win titles I think they gave their attention to the guys that earned it.

Trade Off - By the latter part of my career I think I had accepted a trade off. There's a level of esteem people hold you in around Iowa City for being part of a successful team like the Iowa Wrestling Team. In a way...wrestling for the team is treated like its an achievement by many people. People see it as an achievement on its own...that you are or were part of the team (but outside of attendance, there's no performance required to achieve). In the last 2 years I was involved with the program I had no realistic plan to wrestle varsity. I traded the time & effort that it took to be a serviceable practice room wrestler for the opportunity to be part of the team and benefit from the friendships and esteem others held us in. This is the part of my career that I regret most. I think it would have been better to earnestly pursue excellence in another endeavor than to trade my time for unwarranted esteem. The truth is that during that time, I didn't put in the same work as the starters did. They were doing more individual work outs, they were getting more out of the runs, they were making weight way more often, they were working harder in practice, and they had the burden of delivering performance. It would be a glorification of my effort to pretend that I was "doing everything they were doing without the esteem or credit." This is my particular experience...I'm sure not all "room guys" would feel the same.

In the end I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. It was a really physically demanding sport and the work required definitely pushed me outside of my comfort zone. I am somewhat ashamed of embracing some of the esteem and praise that was given to me or still is conferred upon me for being part of it when my actual contribution was pretty insignificant. I think the biggest thing that I take from it is an understanding of how fear and conservatism inhibits progress. I spent much of my time there afraid to get tired and trying to protect each ounce of progress I made. Now I think it would be better to be embarrassed day after day in a heap of exhaustion and failed scoring attempts than to "survive" by playing it conservative. I think the sport would be more fun that way too.

 

[24 so far]

I was a "room guy" and I can tell you what the experience was like for me. I placed at State a few times and was a state runner-up as a senior in high school. I did have some wins over wrestlers with much better credentials during the course of my career, but I never won a state championship. The reason I went Division I was that I didn't see the point in competing in a division that didn't include the best competition. I've never understood flighting in golf tournaments either. I wouldn't really know where I stack up if I don't compete in the highest division...so Division I made sense. I went to Iowa because my girlfriend at the time was there (although I used other rationale to justify it at the time).

My experience changed over time. The summer before my freshman year I wrestled Doug Schwab in a freestyle match and lost on a last second takedown. I went in thinking that I could make varsity and be competitive for the team. However, I think making varsity was more of a goal than an expectation. In my freshman year, I think I was pretty competitive with most of the other freshmen around my weight...the older guys could hammer pretty much all of us. There is nuance to that...I definitely wrestled better earlier in goes than late...there were elite guys that I'd wrestle even or better for 5 minutes...only to have them wear me out. The primary gauge I had for my potential was how I fared in the room. After a year, I think I thought I could get in the line-up...how do you judge a practice where you probably led by 10 points after the first 5 minutes and lost by 30 after 20 minutes?

Prior to Iowa, I considered myself a hard worker when it came to training & pursuit of improvement. I loved to do strength training. It was pretty apparent to me after my first season that my cardio condition needed to improve to stay competitive for the long goes we wrestled. Sometimes I look back and wonder whether it was real...but it seemed like we'd wrestle goes that were 20 plus minutes long. Anyway, getting to elite "wrestling" cardio condition is extremely difficult. I never made the sacrifices necessary to get there and always operated in somewhat of a "survival" mode of getting through practice (not flurrying continuously or initiating continuously for fear of wearing out).

There are a number of things that I reflect on to try to figure out what happened and you see bits and pieces of these things come out whenever there's a documentary or a media insight into a program.

Every Dog Has Its Day - there is a lot of fluidity in terms of how you fare against your teammates in the room. Some days you feel great...some days you don't. Some days you're heavy...some days you're light. On any given day, a "room guy" could take it to one of the stars on the team. If you go and watch one practice...you get a small sample of what happens. I remember wrestling Terry Brands shortly before he left for the 2000 Olympics. I was bigger than him. I scored the first 3 takedowns of the match we wrestled...he took me down and gutted me until a tech fall. I had good days against Mike Zadick, Doug Schwab, and others. I also had days where those guys beat me to a pulp. All of them fared consistently better than I did in real competition...but when you wrestle every day...room guys have their moments of success.

Outside Looking In - There were many times I felt like I was on the outside looking in. The coaches want to field the most successful team that they can and they have an idea of what guys can deliver the performance they need. They invest in those guys with individual workouts, attention, and coaching. It's easy at the time to believe that its favoritism or is the cause of performance differentials among teammates. There was a practice when I was wrestling well against Mike Zadick and I can remember Tom Brands coaching him from the pillar. Whenever I would score...Tom would yell something like, "why do you let him get that" or "quit letting him have that leg." When you're the guy being coached against...the "let him" part of the communication grates on you. It seems dismissive of your performance. That particular day, wound up with a situation where I had Mike's leg high in the air and he was able to scramble out and take me down. My emotions boiled over and wound up with me bawling & shouting at Tom and storming out. Don't get the wrong idea...Mike beat me up many, many times. In hindsight, I think that the guys getting more attention were earning it. I was not winning sprint laps. I was not coming on strong when we were all fatigued at the end of practice. I was not winning open tournaments. The job of the coaches was to win titles I think they gave their attention to the guys that earned it.

Trade Off - By the latter part of my career I think I had accepted a trade off. There's a level of esteem people hold you in around Iowa City for being part of a successful team like the Iowa Wrestling Team. In a way...wrestling for the team is treated like its an achievement by many people. People see it as an achievement on its own...that you are or were part of the team (but outside of attendance, there's no performance required to achieve). In the last 2 years I was involved with the program I had no realistic plan to wrestle varsity. I traded the time & effort that it took to be a serviceable practice room wrestler for the opportunity to be part of the team and benefit from the friendships and esteem others held us in. This is the part of my career that I regret most. I think it would have been better to earnestly pursue excellence in another endeavor than to trade my time for unwarranted esteem. The truth is that during that time, I didn't put in the same work as the starters did. They were doing more individual work outs, they were getting more out of the runs, they were making weight way more often, they were working harder in practice, and they had the burden of delivering performance. It would be a glorification of my effort to pretend that I was "doing everything they were doing without the esteem or credit." This is my particular experience...I'm sure not all "room guys" would feel the same.

In the end I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. It was a really physically demanding sport and the work required definitely pushed me outside of my comfort zone. I am somewhat ashamed of embracing some of the esteem and praise that was given to me or still is conferred upon me for being part of it when my actual contribution was pretty insignificant. I think the biggest thing that I take from it is an understanding of how fear and conservatism inhibits progress. I spent much of my time there afraid to get tired and trying to protect each ounce of progress I made. Now I think it would be better to be embarrassed day after day in a heap of exhaustion and failed scoring attempts than to "survive" by playing it conservative. I think the sport would be more fun that way too.

That is an EXTREMELY well written piece right there Sir. I'm sure each "room guy" has a slightly different perspective than yours, but I'm not sure all of them could have explained it so eloquently. Outstanding. Thank You.

(with all due respect to Tarphawk, who does great as well)

 

[lionlover]

I was a "room guy" and I can tell you what the experience was like for me. I placed at State a few times and was a state runner-up as a senior in high school. I did have some wins over wrestlers with much better credentials during the course of my career, but I never won a state championship. The reason I went Division I was that I didn't see the point in competing in a division that didn't include the best competition. I've never understood flighting in golf tournaments either. I wouldn't really know where I stack up if I don't compete in the highest division...so Division I made sense. I went to Iowa because my girlfriend at the time was there (although I used other rationale to justify it at the time).

My experience changed over time. The summer before my freshman year I wrestled Doug Schwab in a freestyle match and lost on a last second takedown. I went in thinking that I could make varsity and be competitive for the team. However, I think making varsity was more of a goal than an expectation. In my freshman year, I think I was pretty competitive with most of the other freshmen around my weight...the older guys could hammer pretty much all of us. There is nuance to that...I definitely wrestled better earlier in goes than late...there were elite guys that I'd wrestle even or better for 5 minutes...only to have them wear me out. The primary gauge I had for my potential was how I fared in the room. After a year, I think I thought I could get in the line-up...how do you judge a practice where you probably led by 10 points after the first 5 minutes and lost by 30 after 20 minutes?

Prior to Iowa, I considered myself a hard worker when it came to training & pursuit of improvement. I loved to do strength training. It was pretty apparent to me after my first season that my cardio condition needed to improve to stay competitive for the long goes we wrestled. Sometimes I look back and wonder whether it was real...but it seemed like we'd wrestle goes that were 20 plus minutes long. Anyway, getting to elite "wrestling" cardio condition is extremely difficult. I never made the sacrifices necessary to get there and always operated in somewhat of a "survival" mode of getting through practice (not flurrying continuously or initiating continuously for fear of wearing out).

There are a number of things that I reflect on to try to figure out what happened and you see bits and pieces of these things come out whenever there's a documentary or a media insight into a program.

Every Dog Has Its Day - there is a lot of fluidity in terms of how you fare against your teammates in the room. Some days you feel great...some days you don't. Some days you're heavy...some days you're light. On any given day, a "room guy" could take it to one of the stars on the team. If you go and watch one practice...you get a small sample of what happens. I remember wrestling Terry Brands shortly before he left for the 2000 Olympics. I was bigger than him. I scored the first 3 takedowns of the match we wrestled...he took me down and gutted me until a tech fall. I had good days against Mike Zadick, Doug Schwab, and others. I also had days where those guys beat me to a pulp. All of them fared consistently better than I did in real competition...but when you wrestle every day...room guys have their moments of success.

Outside Looking In - There were many times I felt like I was on the outside looking in. The coaches want to field the most successful team that they can and they have an idea of what guys can deliver the performance they need. They invest in those guys with individual workouts, attention, and coaching. It's easy at the time to believe that its favoritism or is the cause of performance differentials among teammates. There was a practice when I was wrestling well against Mike Zadick and I can remember Tom Brands coaching him from the pillar. Whenever I would score...Tom would yell something like, "why do you let him get that" or "quit letting him have that leg." When you're the guy being coached against...the "let him" part of the communication grates on you. It seems dismissive of your performance. That particular day, wound up with a situation where I had Mike's leg high in the air and he was able to scramble out and take me down. My emotions boiled over and wound up with me bawling & shouting at Tom and storming out. Don't get the wrong idea...Mike beat me up many, many times. In hindsight, I think that the guys getting more attention were earning it. I was not winning sprint laps. I was not coming on strong when we were all fatigued at the end of practice. I was not winning open tournaments. The job of the coaches was to win titles I think they gave their attention to the guys that earned it.

Trade Off - By the latter part of my career I think I had accepted a trade off. There's a level of esteem people hold you in around Iowa City for being part of a successful team like the Iowa Wrestling Team. In a way...wrestling for the team is treated like its an achievement by many people. People see it as an achievement on its own...that you are or were part of the team (but outside of attendance, there's no performance required to achieve). In the last 2 years I was involved with the program I had no realistic plan to wrestle varsity. I traded the time & effort that it took to be a serviceable practice room wrestler for the opportunity to be part of the team and benefit from the friendships and esteem others held us in. This is the part of my career that I regret most. I think it would have been better to earnestly pursue excellence in another endeavor than to trade my time for unwarranted esteem. The truth is that during that time, I didn't put in the same work as the starters did. They were doing more individual work outs, they were getting more out of the runs, they were making weight way more often, they were working harder in practice, and they had the burden of delivering performance. It would be a glorification of my effort to pretend that I was "doing everything they were doing without the esteem or credit." This is my particular experience...I'm sure not all "room guys" would feel the same.

In the end I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. It was a really physically demanding sport and the work required definitely pushed me outside of my comfort zone. I am somewhat ashamed of embracing some of the esteem and praise that was given to me or still is conferred upon me for being part of it when my actual contribution was pretty insignificant. I think the biggest thing that I take from it is an understanding of how fear and conservatism inhibits progress. I spent much of my time there afraid to get tired and trying to protect each ounce of progress I made. Now I think it would be better to be embarrassed day after day in a heap of exhaustion and failed scoring attempts than to "survive" by playing it conservative. I think the sport would be more fun that way too.

Years ago I met a wrestler who professed to be a two time state wrestling champion and wrestled at the same weight as Dan Gable in trhe Iowaa State room.. This was like 40 years ago. I don't remember the guy's name or tried to validate his story.

He said what you said, all of the best wrestlers had bad days in the room...EXCEPT for Dan Gable. He said it was painful knowing that every day he was going to the room to wrestle, he was going to get mauled.

He further said that one day Dan Gable was ""sick" and he thought to himself, "this is the day, I will finally get Gable!" Well, you guessed it. Gable didn't pin him that day...but tech falled him over...and over.

Can you guys imagine how mentally and physically hard that had to have been to go with Gable EVERY day?

Fck that. I am glad I played basketball!

 

[roeisele]

This is an amazing thread. So much great stuff in here. Thanks to everyone who has contributed.

 

[lionlover]

This is an amazing thread. So much great stuff in here. Thanks to everyone who has contributed.

Well, since you are a courteous guy, how about this one from Lewis:

Gable: The Master Psychologist

My freshman year, I won a close match 13-12 against Bob Logan from Marshalltown, Iowa during our team’s wrestleoffs. One week later, we wrestled in our first competition of the year at a tournament in Minnesota. In the semifinals on the other side of the bracket, a freshman named Ryan Kaufman from the University of Minnesota beat Logan 17-2.

I was to meet Kaufman in the finals. Gable came up to me before the match to get me fired up. I was a little worried that Kaufman had just beaten someone 17-2 that I only beat 13-12. Gable told me that Kaufman had told him earlier that he should have recruited him (Kaufman) instead of me, and that he was going to beat the hell out of me in the finals to prove it.

I started getting psyched up, thinking who does Kaufman think he is, saying that to Gable. Telling my coach that he is going to whip me! I ended up getting ahead 10-1 in the second period, then pinning Kaufman.

It wasn’t until seven years later, in a casual conversation with Gable when Kaufman’s name came up. I asked Gable if he remembered when Kaufman told him that he should have recruited him instead of me. And, that he was going to beat me. Gable thought about it for a second, and then said, “Oh, Kaufman never said any of that. I just made it up to get you psyched up for that match.”

 

[funnyfletcher]

Well, since you are a courteous guy, how about this one from Lewis:

Gable: The Master Psychologist

My freshman year, I won a close match 13-12 against Bob Logan from Marshalltown, Iowa during our team’s wrestleoffs. One week later, we wrestled in our first competition of the year at a tournament in Minnesota. In the semifinals on the other side of the bracket, a freshman named Ryan Kaufman from the University of Minnesota beat Logan 17-2.

I was to meet Kaufman in the finals. Gable came up to me before the match to get me fired up. I was a little worried that Kaufman had just beaten someone 17-2 that I only beat 13-12. Gable told me that Kaufman had told him earlier that he should have recruited him (Kaufman) instead of me, and that he was going to beat the hell out of me in the finals to prove it.

I started getting psyched up, thinking who does Kaufman think he is, saying that to Gable. Telling my coach that he is going to whip me! I ended up getting ahead 10-1 in the second period, then pinning Kaufman.

It wasn’t until seven years later, in a casual conversation with Gable when Kaufman’s name came up. I asked Gable if he remembered when Kaufman told him that he should have recruited him instead of me. And, that he was going to beat me. Gable thought about it for a second, and then said, “Oh, Kaufman never said any of that. I just made it up to get you psyched up for that match.”

I love it!

 

[IAChief32]

I was a "room guy" and I can tell you what the experience was like for me. I placed at State a few times and was a state runner-up as a senior in high school. I did have some wins over wrestlers with much better credentials during the course of my career, but I never won a state championship. The reason I went Division I was that I didn't see the point in competing in a division that didn't include the best competition. I've never understood flighting in golf tournaments either. I wouldn't really know where I stack up if I don't compete in the highest division...so Division I made sense. I went to Iowa because my girlfriend at the time was there (although I used other rationale to justify it at the time).

My experience changed over time. The summer before my freshman year I wrestled Doug Schwab in a freestyle match and lost on a last second takedown. I went in thinking that I could make varsity and be competitive for the team. However, I think making varsity was more of a goal than an expectation. In my freshman year, I think I was pretty competitive with most of the other freshmen around my weight...the older guys could hammer pretty much all of us. There is nuance to that...I definitely wrestled better earlier in goes than late...there were elite guys that I'd wrestle even or better for 5 minutes...only to have them wear me out. The primary gauge I had for my potential was how I fared in the room. After a year, I think I thought I could get in the line-up...how do you judge a practice where you probably led by 10 points after the first 5 minutes and lost by 30 after 20 minutes?

Prior to Iowa, I considered myself a hard worker when it came to training & pursuit of improvement. I loved to do strength training. It was pretty apparent to me after my first season that my cardio condition needed to improve to stay competitive for the long goes we wrestled. Sometimes I look back and wonder whether it was real...but it seemed like we'd wrestle goes that were 20 plus minutes long. Anyway, getting to elite "wrestling" cardio condition is extremely difficult. I never made the sacrifices necessary to get there and always operated in somewhat of a "survival" mode of getting through practice (not flurrying continuously or initiating continuously for fear of wearing out).

There are a number of things that I reflect on to try to figure out what happened and you see bits and pieces of these things come out whenever there's a documentary or a media insight into a program.

Every Dog Has Its Day - there is a lot of fluidity in terms of how you fare against your teammates in the room. Some days you feel great...some days you don't. Some days you're heavy...some days you're light. On any given day, a "room guy" could take it to one of the stars on the team. If you go and watch one practice...you get a small sample of what happens. I remember wrestling Terry Brands shortly before he left for the 2000 Olympics. I was bigger than him. I scored the first 3 takedowns of the match we wrestled...he took me down and gutted me until a tech fall. I had good days against Mike Zadick, Doug Schwab, and others. I also had days where those guys beat me to a pulp. All of them fared consistently better than I did in real competition...but when you wrestle every day...room guys have their moments of success.

Outside Looking In - There were many times I felt like I was on the outside looking in. The coaches want to field the most successful team that they can and they have an idea of what guys can deliver the performance they need. They invest in those guys with individual workouts, attention, and coaching. It's easy at the time to believe that its favoritism or is the cause of performance differentials among teammates. There was a practice when I was wrestling well against Mike Zadick and I can remember Tom Brands coaching him from the pillar. Whenever I would score...Tom would yell something like, "why do you let him get that" or "quit letting him have that leg." When you're the guy being coached against...the "let him" part of the communication grates on you. It seems dismissive of your performance. That particular day, wound up with a situation where I had Mike's leg high in the air and he was able to scramble out and take me down. My emotions boiled over and wound up with me bawling & shouting at Tom and storming out. Don't get the wrong idea...Mike beat me up many, many times. In hindsight, I think that the guys getting more attention were earning it. I was not winning sprint laps. I was not coming on strong when we were all fatigued at the end of practice. I was not winning open tournaments. The job of the coaches was to win titles I think they gave their attention to the guys that earned it.

Trade Off - By the latter part of my career I think I had accepted a trade off. There's a level of esteem people hold you in around Iowa City for being part of a successful team like the Iowa Wrestling Team. In a way...wrestling for the team is treated like its an achievement by many people. People see it as an achievement on its own...that you are or were part of the team (but outside of attendance, there's no performance required to achieve). In the last 2 years I was involved with the program I had no realistic plan to wrestle varsity. I traded the time & effort that it took to be a serviceable practice room wrestler for the opportunity to be part of the team and benefit from the friendships and esteem others held us in. This is the part of my career that I regret most. I think it would have been better to earnestly pursue excellence in another endeavor than to trade my time for unwarranted esteem. The truth is that during that time, I didn't put in the same work as the starters did. They were doing more individual work outs, they were getting more out of the runs, they were making weight way more often, they were working harder in practice, and they had the burden of delivering performance. It would be a glorification of my effort to pretend that I was "doing everything they were doing without the esteem or credit." This is my particular experience...I'm sure not all "room guys" would feel the same.

In the end I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. It was a really physically demanding sport and the work required definitely pushed me outside of my comfort zone. I am somewhat ashamed of embracing some of the esteem and praise that was given to me or still is conferred upon me for being part of it when my actual contribution was pretty insignificant. I think the biggest thing that I take from it is an understanding of how fear and conservatism inhibits progress. I spent much of my time there afraid to get tired and trying to protect each ounce of progress I made. Now I think it would be better to be embarrassed day after day in a heap of exhaustion and failed scoring attempts than to "survive" by playing it conservative. I think the sport would be more fun that way too.

Probably one of the better posts that I have seen on here. Thanks bro.

 

[manatree]

He further said that one day Dan Gable was ""sick" and he thought to himself, "this is the day, I will finally get Gable!" Well, you guessed it. Gable didn't pin him that day...but tech falled him over...and over.

The tech fall did not exist back then. I believe it was introduced in the 80s. I don’t even think the superior decision came about until the 70s.

 

[fufighters]

I've posted this before, but was on a recruiting trip @ Iowa and I brought a camera with me.
We got to watch practice and I was sitting watching Barry Davis his true freshman year. I had just spent the last summer working out/ competing against him so I had a vested somewhat interest in how he was doing.
During the course of practice I started snapping photos of various wrestlers such as Randy Lewis, Trizzinos, Zalesky and of course the Banach brothers.( wish I still had that film) .
I dont if Gable was watching or what but all of a sudden he decided to go full on against Lou Banach.
It was intense but then Gable looking at me and the camera started throwing Lou like a rag doll.
Lou would get back up and come right back at him and Gable just would throw him again...felt bad for big Lou and for bringing that camera.
When people ask who would win between Gable in his prime or anyone else, I remember what I saw and theres no doubt Gable.

 

[24 so far]

The tech fall did not exist back then. I believe it was introduced in the 80s. I don’t even think the superior decision came about until the 70s.

I am not certain when the article was written, but it MAY have been written after the Tech Fall was intoduced. So the actual wrestling could have occurred prior, but the writing fit the narrative of the rules at the time of the writing.

 

[manatree]

I am not certain when the article was written, but it MAY have been written after the Tech Fall was intoduced. So the actual wrestling could have occurred prior, but the writing fit the narrative of the rules at the time of the writing.

The poster said it was a conversation with someone who claimed to be one of Gable’s former teammates, not an article that he had read. One would think that an actual wrestler of the era would remember that there was no mercy rule tech fall. I suspect the claim was B.S.

 

[KujawaFan]

Mgogel - one of the best and most insightful posts I have seen. Thanks for sharing.

 

[fufighters]

The tech fall came about in 80s ....Gene Mills @#$% $%/_ rule. He scored like 70 some odd points against a guy was going for 100 and believe if memory serves correctly pissed off USSR guys and fila changed the rule.
College I believe came after that. I scored 32- 8 against a guy and that was still in 80s. Glad they changed the rule.

 

[Jackhawk87]

I think everybody has the utmost respect for the”room guys” and all they do for the program. While everybody wants to see the A team every meet, I don’t mind seeing those “room guys” get their day on the mat in front of the home crowd (or even at away meets). The more “room guys” that get to leave the program as a starter on the Iowa wrestling team, the better.

Having guys like Perez, Glynn and Cashman (assuming he has a few starts this year) put in the hard work and being able to leave the program being able to say they wrestled for Iowa and started meets for the Hawks IMO is a really good thing.