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"Creaning"

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HawkamongstGophers

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Nov 30, 2008
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There is a lot of grumbling about his practice of ostensibly "cutting" players to sign better ones. People seem to think it is better to be a nice guy and stick to your commitment as a school/coach.

The thing is, Jr. High teams cut players, HS teams cut players, NBA teams cut players' and most importantly, players who are good enough cut their teams, by going pro.

Personally, I hope the IA staff does some "creaning" going forward.

Their job is to put the best team possible in uniform, not be nice guys to the detriment of the teams performance.
 
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Ultimately, I think it should be the player's choice to transfer but Fran should be very honest with them and what he sees for their future at Iowa. If they are D2 material Fran needs to make it very clear that he doesn't see much playing time for them in a Iowa uniform.
 
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Frans problem can be summed up with his handling of josh ogelsby. He treated this years seniors like ogelsby with the exception of clemmons.
Rarely if ever a benching. He finds "his" players and let's them play to everyone else's detriment at times.
 
Bulldogs1974 said:
Frans problem can be summed up with his handling of josh ogelsby. He treated this years seniors like ogelsby with the exception of clemmons.
Rarely if ever a benching. He finds "his" players and let's them play to everyone else's detriment at times.
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That is a concerning issue. Many see Ellingson as Ogles 2.0 and hard not to agree.

A little more PT for Wiilliams would have made this a better team in long run. Also, I do believe the starters got mentally and physically fatigued last couple months and more PT for some bench players MIGHT have cost us some games in Dec-Jan but won a couple in Feb-Mar, leaving the team overall stronger and perhaps the fan base a little more optimistic.

I say MIGHT because we will never know that answer with certainty.
 
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I have never known a JH or HS team cut a player for anything other than discipline
 
Bulldogs1974 said:
There is no way Fran could not see the potential in Williams over ellingson earlier in the season.
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Early in the season, not so clear cut, but by mid season seemed more obvious. Had he had more PT early' playing over Clemmons even or at least more evenly' might have developed. I did like what I saw in him, big body, long, more talented around the bucket, but he was also a bit loose with ball. Still from what we saw, I personallywould like to have seen him more, if for no other reason than to get him more experience and ease the load on rest of starters.
 
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Need to be very specific with what is meant by "Creaning". If you're talking yanking a guys scholly just for lack of ability to get playing time, I don't think I'd agree with that.
But if it's telling a kid after the season's done that you don't think they're likely to get minutes in the future that's exactly what I'd expect to happen.
 
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Bulldogs1974 said:
There is no way Fran could not see the potential in Williams over ellingson earlier in the season.
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Seriously? It happens every year, in many school's, maybe not small town schools but in metro areas someone from last years team is often replaced by a new or younger player. Some states/classes may not have roster limits, but those that do have "tryouts" and cuts.
 
wartdog said:
Your analogy confuses the crap out of me
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Your comment about having "4 and 5 stars lined up" is analogous to only playing highly rated hands. Sometimes you take a chance with lesser cards because they might turn out better.

Cutting a poor performing player to take someone new may not workout but are you any worse off by cutting someone who is not playing for the chance that the next player may pan out better.

Perhaps the better analogy is do you play 2-7 hole cards, just because you have them or do you through them in looking for better cards on the next shuffle? There are no guarantees, but you at least have a new set of odds.
 
I get what you were going for and yes i fold my 2-7 and tell them they just are not B1G poker material and try my luck with a new hand. Unfortunately in this case the crappy hand has all the right in the world to say "thanks but im gonna stay in your hand and what you decide to do with me is your call but i have the actual power here." The coach can have him ride the pine his whole career but if he wants to stay tough luck. I do think most kids would get the picture and if the coach actively helps them find somewhere to go and succeed then awesome, but the kid always has the right to say "na im comfortable here and ok with settling for a scrub role" and nothing you can do.

Also I wasnt the guy who made the comment on 4 and 5 stars or whatever
 
HawkamongstGophers said:
There is a lot of grumbling about his practice of ostensibly "cutting" players to sign better ones. People seem to think it is better to be a nice guy and stick to your commitment as a school/coach.

The thing is, Jr. High teams cut players, HS teams cut players, NBA teams cut players' and most importantly, players who are good enough cut their teams, by going pro.

Personally, I hope the IA staff does some "creaning" going forward.

Their job is to put the best team possible in uniform, not be nice guys to the detriment of the teams performance.
Click to expand...

Right now "Creaning" doesn't sound half-bad. Take that to mean whatever you like.
 
wartdog said:
I get what you were going for and yes i fold my 2-7 and tell them they just are not B1G poker material and try my luck with a new hand. Unfortunately in this case the crappy hand has all the right in the world to say "thanks but im gonna stay in your hand and what you decide to do with me is your call but i have the actual power here." The coach can have him ride the pine his whole career but if he wants to stay tough luck. I do think most kids would get the picture and if the coach actively helps them find somewhere to go and succeed then awesome, but the kid always has the right to say "na im comfortable here and ok with settling for a scrub role" and nothing you can do.

Also I wasnt the guy who made the comment on 4 and 5 stars or whatever
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Sorry, you are correct the 4/5 star comment originated elsewhere. Sorry.
 
HawkamongstGophers said:
Your comment about having "4 and 5 stars lined up" is analogous to only playing highly rated hands. Sometimes you take a chance with lesser cards because they might turn out better.

Cutting a poor performing player to take someone new may not workout but are you any worse off by cutting someone who is not playing for the chance that the next player may pan out better.

Perhaps the better analogy is do you play 2-7 hole cards, just because you have them or do you through them in looking for better cards on the next shuffle? There are no guarantees, but you at least have a new set of odds.
Click to expand...

I want to play poker with you. Please bring lots of money.
 
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HawkamongstGophers said:
So you're saying you routinely play 2-7? If so, I won't need lots of money, what you bring will do just fine!
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You said out the gate that you take chances with lower rated cards. Please bring your money because statistically I will clean you out with my higher rated cards.
 
I am not in favor of this practice. I think its cheap and wrong to do that to a player, but I understand in the BIG BUSINESS of College Basketball, if you want to win, you have to do drastic things. I mean if you just sit back and "do it right" your probably going to fall behind at some point and be struggling. If you do not take advantage of the loop holes of the NCAA, you will be just average.

Now I am not stating that we are just average, I am just assuming that is what happens. You look at a teams all over the country and you see teams who accept transfers (graduate transfers) and what not. Iowa's only transfer was Uthoff and that was after his freshman year. A lot of teams take JUCO players and use them as well. Iowa has had I believe Cartwright, Dixon, and Jones? Are those the only 3 guys he has taken from JUCO? I realize not all of them are good, but sometimes you might have to take a chance on some of those players.

If anyone transfers out, I would like Fran to try the market for a "graduate" transfer. Someone who has Div 1 experience to come in and play for a year. I realize its a gamble, but it something that could help Iowa. There are some players who are at smaller schools who step in to the Power 5 conferences and are successful. Fran just has to find that player.

Fran is doing it the right way, but the question is will it be good enough? I don't know? I am personally happy with the program and I think it is trending in the right direction. Iowa was something like 19-53 in the Big Ten prior to this senior group coming in. They improved a lot and have been to back to back to back NCAA tournaments. We won games in the tournament which we hadn't done in like 15 years. So I think the program is trending upward, but todays loss was tough. It was a buzz saw and Iowa just played poorly. It was a tough game, but it is what it is.
 
ICWestfan said:
You said out the gate that you take chances with lower rated cards. Please bring your money because statistically I will clean you out with my higher rated cards.
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No, I said you sometimes play cards other than high pairs, and throw away cards that have a low percentage of improving, but hey you saw what you saw, poker champ.

As it related to the "Creaning" comment, you don't stand pat if you have bad cards, you toss them, looking for better cards (players.)

That said "tossing" players is bit to strong of language. Make sure they are educated as promised, help them find better opportunities to play, but coaches number one job is to maximize the product, and if that means pushing non-productive players to other places to create openings for others then so be it.
 
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DavenportHawk8 said:
I am not in favor of this practice. I think its cheap and wrong to do that to a player, but I understand in the BIG BUSINESS of College Basketball, if you want to win, you have to do drastic things. I mean if you just sit back and "do it right" your probably going to fall behind at some point and be struggling. If you do not take advantage of the loop holes of the NCAA, you will be just average.

Now I am not stating that we are just average, I am just assuming that is what happens. You look at a teams all over the country and you see teams who accept transfers (graduate transfers) and what not. Iowa's only transfer was Uthoff and that was after his freshman year. A lot of teams take JUCO players and use them as well. Iowa has had I believe Cartwright, Dixon, and Jones? Are those the only 3 guys he has taken from JUCO? I realize not all of them are good, but sometimes you might have to take a chance on some of those players.

If anyone transfers out, I would like Fran to try the market for a "graduate" transfer. Someone who has Div 1 experience to come in and play for a year. I realize its a gamble, but it something that could help Iowa. There are some players who are at smaller schools who step in to the Power 5 conferences and are successful. Fran just has to find that player.

Fran is doing it the right way, but the question is will it be good enough? I don't know? I am personally happy with the program and I think it is trending in the right direction. Iowa was something like 19-53 in the Big Ten prior to this senior group coming in. They improved a lot and have been to back to back to back NCAA tournaments. We won games in the tournament which we hadn't done in like 15 years. So I think the program is trending upward, but todays loss was tough. It was a buzz saw and Iowa just played poorly. It was a tough game, but it is what it is.
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You cut players that aren't good enough at end of season. I played ball in the late 60 's and we had try outs every year starting in 9 the grade all the way to senior in high school. We had players not make the team every year that were on it the previous year. This PC BS about life time scholarships is what it is BS. You aren't going to play you need to get rid of them. Life is not always fair. This isn't your same basketball it was 20 to 30 yyrs. ago. I really don't care about he is such a good kid. In today's world it's about winning. I'm not the coach but Isee Ellingson as that type of player that needs to go. Been in the program 2 yrs. and has done what. Baer deserve that scholly more than Ellingson. I know he was hurt the first yr.
 
I'd crean Ellingson & Uhl. Have Connor walk on. Give Baer a scholly and violate some recruiting rules to get a stud pg and center. :)
 
sadiehawkins said:
You cut players that aren't good enough at end of season. I played ball in the late 60 's and we had try outs every year starting in 9 the grade all the way to senior in high school. We had players not make the team every year that were on it the previous year. This PC BS about life time scholarships is what it is BS. You aren't going to play you need to get rid of them. Life is not always fair. This isn't your same basketball it was 20 to 30 yyrs. ago. I really don't care about he is such a good kid. In today's world it's about winning. I'm not the coach but Isee Ellingson as that type of player that needs to go. Been in the program 2 yrs. and has done what. Baer deserve that scholly more than Ellingson. I know he was hurt the first yr.
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I realize they cut at the HS level and understand that all schools do it. I just don't think Fran wants to chance it. I mean what if he creans "ellingson" and then recruits an idiot who commits violations and what not. What is he supposed to do there? Then we have issues inside the program and what not.

I realize that is an EXTREME situation, but it could happen. Just like the Hubbard kid, Fran took a chance and he didn't pan out. You just never know and I hope that Fran knows what he is doing.
 
DavenportHawk8 said:
I realize they cut at the HS level and understand that all schools do it. I just don't think Fran wants to chance it. I mean what if he creans "ellingson" and then recruits an idiot who commits violations and what not. What is he supposed to do there? Then we have issues inside the program and what not.

I realize that is an EXTREME situation, but it could happen. Just like the Hubbard kid, Fran took a chance and he didn't pan out. You just never know and I hope that Fran knows what he is doing.
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This is equivalent to covering yourself in bubble-wrap. You'll never know what's out there if you never take a chance. In college basketball, you always take that chance.
 
DavenportHawk8 said:
I realize they cut at the HS level and understand that all schools do it. I just don't think Fran wants to chance it. I mean what if he creans "ellingson" and then recruits an idiot who commits violations and what not. What is he supposed to do there? Then we have issues inside the program and what not.

I realize that is an EXTREME situation, but it could happen. Just like the Hubbard kid, Fran took a chance and he didn't pan out. You just never know and I hope that Fran knows what he is doing.
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Talk about a bout a pessimise. I shouldn'tdrive my car today because I could get in a accident. Jesus man I 'd hate to go through life with that attitude. If you aren't going to get playing time in game situations what is your value. We have cheer leaders for the rah rah stuff. Obvious Fran missed on Baer. Where is the fairness with Ellingson receiving aid and Baer none. If I was Baer and his parents I waould be telling Fran I'm moving on if I don't receive a scholly. He's proven he can contribute at this level Ellingson not so much. I. think Fran is playing on Baers emotions. It probably was his dream to play at Iowa. If Fran hasn't discussed this aid situation with Baer I would question Frans character.
 
sadiehawkins said:
Talk about a bout a pessimise. I shouldn'tdrive my car today because I could get in a accident. Jesus man I 'd hate to go through life with that attitude. If you aren't going to get playing time in game situations what is your value. We have cheer leaders for the rah rah stuff. Obvious Fran missed on Baer. Where is the fairness with Ellingson receiving aid and Baer none. If I was Baer and his parents I waould be telling Fran I'm moving on if I don't receive a scholly. He's proven he can contribute at this level Ellingson not so much. I. think Fran is playing on Baers emotions. It probably was his dream to play at Iowa. If Fran hasn't discussed this aid situation with Baer I would question Frans character.
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To be fair, Baer wasn't even the best player in his high school conference. If Fran would of offered him, everyone on here would of been asking about Fran's recruiting. So to say he "missed" is a bold stretch. I mean his only offers were Div 2 schools. So in your eyes Phrom, Groce and others missed, so don't just blame Fran for that.

I agree Ellingson is a bit of a stretch player, but you never know. If Wisky gave up on Frank Kaminsky after his RS Freshman year, what would of happened? I mean players do improve and get better. I am not saying Ellingson will be the next Kaminsky, but to throw him off the team because you think we can get a 4-5 star player is crazy talk.
 
sadiehawkins said:
You cut players that aren't good enough at end of season. I played ball in the late 60 's and we had try outs every year starting in 9 the grade all the way to senior in high school. We had players not make the team every year that were on it the previous year. This PC BS about life time scholarships is what it is BS. You aren't going to play you need to get rid of them. Life is not always fair. This isn't your same basketball it was 20 to 30 yyrs. ago. I really don't care about he is such a good kid. In today's world it's about winning. I'm not the coach but Isee Ellingson as that type of player that needs to go. Been in the program 2 yrs. and has done what. Baer deserve that scholly more than Ellingson. I know he was hurt the first yr.
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This logic is fine if the NCAA would pass rules that allowed a player to transfer without losing a year of eligibility. "Student Athletes" are in a powerless situation, they made a commitment to a school (in theory) not a coach or program. If you want to cut them then there needs to be options and a support structure in place to make sure their commitment to the school is rewarded. Look at many of the kids from Florida on our football roster that come from poor backgrounds, do you think that they would have considered Iowa had we not persuaded them to attend here? After the athlete commits there is a responsibility to them.

What I'm saying this this isn't a professional system (for the student athletes), you can't have it both ways, either pay them or honor their scholorships for four years, anything else is a half measure.
 
StormHawk42 said:
I have never known a JH or HS team cut a player for anything other than discipline
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Growing up in Iowa you might not have seen that. However in bigger states cuts are made all the time. In states like Florida where I spent time several kids get cut from football, basketball and baseball after camp. In Iowa coaches are usually stuggling to get a full football roster put together but in Florida a lot of schools have enough kids try out to field 3 teams. Its a big deal when the SEC football teams cut kids but a lot of those guys down there know its part of football.
 
Fran isn't going to hang onto everyone. What do you think happened with guys like Kyle Meyer and Pat Ingram? I'm sure he discussed his expectations and they mutually parted ways. If someone like Ellingson wants more playing time or something, he's free to go. If he wants to give his best and hang around like JR Angle, that's his right as well.
 
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Auger said:
Growing up in Iowa you might not have seen that. However in bigger states cuts are made all the time. In states like Florida where I spent time several kids get cut from football, basketball and baseball after camp. In Iowa coaches are usually stuggling to get a full football roster put together but in Florida a lot of schools have enough kids try out to field 3 teams. Its a big deal when the SEC football teams cut kids but a lot of those guys down there know its part of football.
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Yup in larger areas this is common to cut once they get to the HS level. I know in our area in JH they allow everyone to play (they have A, B, C, D, etc etc) games. I mean there will be a game scheduled and then there will be like 3 or 4 extra quarters for the other kids to play. Once they get to HS, they cut it down to like 1 or 2 teams. I don't know what to think about that, but I feel it is okay to give them a shot to play. I realize its a "participation" trophy type of thing, but they are in Junior High.

One story I can remember growing up, we had a kid was 6-5 in 8th grade. He got cut because we we're going to have 2 teams. So they cut 10 kids and he was one of them. Uncoordinated as hell and could barely walk and chew gum. The kid transferred to another school and got to play in JH. 2 years later as a sophomore he is playing Varsity and is 6-8. He was pretty good, ended up going to Div 2, but hell our JH coach thought he couldn't play at that time. Whoops! So I can understand it for that reason. But I agree once they get to HS, need to cut it down. Wasn't Michael Jordan cut from his HS team?? I mean some kids take it as a shot and work harder. Some other kids just pout and give up.
 
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