Some questions I need help with - CDJ

[LetsGoHawks83]

It's REAL simple to fix this rule so refs can't effing screw teams over in the future.

If the ball hits the ground, any fair catch or "invalid fair catch" signal is nullified. You know, cause you didn't CATCH THE BALL.

But the NCAA will probably not make any changes, too busy handing out year long suspension to 21 year old men for gambling on sports that they have no ties to.

 

[Hawksbyamillion]

Nor need it be. Indeed, that is what made it invalid: The swinging of the left arm NOT over his head but that could be misinterpreted by the D as being a fair catch signal, causing them to legg to up. The swinging of the left arm was the problem.

Ferentz said after the game that he was told in pregame that a fair catch wave was above the head.

 

[Bierhalter]

Here are several other examples of very similar plays that went for TDs that weren’t called back.

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Wow. I'd honestly thought that the fact Dejean scored was the only thing that validated the officials reviewing this, but then this gets posted and blows that notion out of the water. Officials knew what they were doing on Saturday, making that call at the time that they did. Anyone think they still make that call if it happened at the end of the first half, rather than the end of the second half in a potential game-winning situation?

 

[markfromj]

Ferentz said after the game that he was told in pregame that a fair catch wave was above the head.

That meant a VALID fair catch signal.

 

[HawkDoggy]

The real shame in all of this is that our Offense is so incredibly bad that we knew when the play got overturned it was "game over". Anyone that has been watching Iowa Football the last 3 weeks (or 3 years) knew we wouldn't be able to move the ball to set up for a game winning field goal. Kirk trotted that same horse shit offense out on the field...and everyone in the stadium and watching on TV knew what the result was going to be. I truly mean this when I say it....I never thought I'd see such terrible Offensive performance anywhere in college football, at any level. And, admittedly, I've probably become somewhat de-sensitized to it. When you watch objectively...truly objectively....you realize just how pathetic it is. It's nearly impossible to comprehend how bad this offense is.

Sad and embarrassing.

 

[uihawk82]

1) can a player fair catch a ball after it has hit the ground?

2) what would be the rule if a player called a VALID fair catch, the ball drops to the ground, then the player picks up the ball? Can that be advanced by that player?

3) what were the refs actually reviewing? Did they announce that when they paused to go to the monitor?

4) has anyone ever seen and invalid fair catch called before? How does it work? Like; if you wanted to, could you just make an invalid signal and run off the field so the ball is just dead and you don’t have to worry about a fumble or flub by a gunner? And where would the ball be dead at? Where it first lands? Or where the coverage team touched it? Or out of bounds?

I am guessing about #1) but I would think a player can signal fair catch and if the ball bounces to them they can catch it where they cannot advance it but also not get tackled. #2) would be after giving a fair catch signal a player cannot advance the ball

But remember, any bobble or fumble can result in the defense getting the ball.

#3) it was announced even after the game that the review was to see if Coop stepped out of bounds yet the Replay ref in the booth at the game took it upon themselves to call this invalid bullshit, which get to your #4 question,

#4) have never seen this called in 60 years of watching college and pro football. Someone posted yesterday and video of a N Carolina Tarheels punt returner waving both arms horizontally, very fast and very emphatically, for his team to get out of the way of the ball. The ball bounced to the returner and he caught it and ran it about 4 yards forward and went out of bounds, saving his teams yards. So again, I do not see anything that Coop did that isnt done many, many times each year.

 

[uihawk82]

i know this has been asked, but I am too lazy to check. Did the refs announce what was under review on that play or do they not have to because it was a touchdown?

All scoring plays and turnovers are auto reviewed iirc so they just started the review process. Going out of bounds was a key thing to review and they could have looked for targeting but no other penalties.

But for some reason this replay official made a call that is never called, never, I have watched a lot of football over 60 years and I have never seen a horizontal motion of the arms called an invalid fair catch.

 

[uihawk82]

It’s rarely called but has happened before, as happened in this game in 2015 to wipe out a TD by Wisconsin.

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This is a perfect example of why this rule needs to be rewritten. The wisky player in that video is most emphatically waving his arms horizontally not making a fair catch call. This horizontal waving happens 99.9% of the time without some invalid fair catch call because most times the ball doesnt bounce to the returner.

So the rule needs to say punt returners cannot ANY time wave their arms except to indicate FAIR CATCH using one arm over the helmet. Or make the rule say that any punt that bounces CANNOT be returned which would be really STUPID

Otherwise, call this foul every time so players do not get bit in the ass

 

[madmustang4]

what bothers me the most:
they were using replay to make sure he didnt' go out of bounds. Then the decided to make a call that had not been made. Kinda like calling a penalty after the fact which i didnt think could be done.

 

[nelly02]

what bothers me the most:
they were using replay to make sure he didnt' go out of bounds. Then the decided to make a call that had not been made. Kinda like calling a penalty after the fact which i didnt think could be done.

Where they get off is on the technicality that it is not a penalty it just means he can't advance it. In my opinion it is a very stupid rule and should be eliminated. They say it's to prevent the other team from letting up... well teach your team to not let up unless a clear fair catch is made... and seriously why are you letting up? Minnesota had 7 guys within 5 yards of Coop when he picked up the ball. And not one of them hesitated to try and tackle him. That right there shows no advantage was gained by Coop which is the point of having rules. We got screwed royally and anyone who says different is a hater

 

[uihawk82]

2) A player who called for a fair catch may not advance the ball if it bounces. It happened to Minn shortly before this and Iowa couldn’t hit him. Dead ball

Well #2 happens all the time because the returner made a VALID, real fair catch signal.

All of this invalid bullcrap makes it possible for the invalid signal to be called 1 out of 1000 times in key situations.

 

[Hawksbyamillion]

That meant a VALID fair catch signal.

The D never let up. Come on, be reasonable.

 

[uihawk82]

what bothers me the most:
they were using replay to make sure he didnt' go out of bounds. Then the decided to make a call that had not been made. Kinda like calling a penalty after the fact which i didnt think could be done.

Yes, and the official by saying it was and "invalid fair catch signal" was saying he read Coop's mind that he was trying to make a fair catch signal. Refs cant and shouldnt try to read player's intent except on severe personal fouls.

If this is going to be called like this, no arm and hand waving except a true fair catch signal, then write the rule that way. But that would be impossible to enforce because as Cooper said that he was running and he pointed with his right hand and his left hand was moving as if for regular balance.

That replay official in the booth went way out of his way to make this call. Fishy? maybe??

 

[uihawk82]

No. I’m saying “the booth” didn’t make the call. On field ref O’Dey did.

I think you are wrong and the Big 10 said it was the booth replay guy. Even the national review desk didnt go there

 

[uihawk82]

This is my first post regarding the game or call. If O'Dey called it on the field, then wouldn't he have announced the ruling on the field is invalid fair catch. The play is under further review.

Just asking, not looking to debate whether or not it was the right call.

You are correct. In the video from 2015 where the wisky player does the same thing and houses the punt you can see an official come up to the ref after the fact and tell him that it might have been or was a so called invalid signal.

That one called on the field, as you say never called on the field first last Saturday

 

[Mountain Man Hawk]

You are correct. In the video from 2015 where the wisky player does the same thing and houses the punt you can see an official come up to the ref after the fact and tell him that it might have been or was a so called invalid signal.

That one called on the field, as you say never called on the field first last Saturday

I think so too. I mean, that’s the reason the rule exists - so you can’t give an intentionally ambiguous wave to get the defense to let up.

I’ve watched it a few times now and it seems obvious to me that in the Wisconsin clip the defense eased up (at least one of the guys that could have tackled him quit on the play) and that never happened in Cooper’s return. If you watch the end zone angle it’s even more clear that nobody gave up on the play.

 

[iahawks10]

Well #2 happens all the time because the returner made a VALID, real fair catch signal.

All of this invalid bullcrap makes it possible for the invalid signal to be called 1 out of 1000 times in key situations.

The question begs to be asked. Why even attempt a valid fair catch signal? If the end result is a dead ball at the spot whether it’s valid or invalid, and there’s no penalty (loss of yardage) for an invalid signal, why even make attempt a valid fair catch?

 

[Rifler]

The question begs to be asked. Why even attempt a valid fair catch signal? If the end result is a dead ball at the spot whether it’s valid or invalid, and there’s no penalty (loss of yardage) for an invalid signal, why even make attempt a valid fair catch?

Protection for the receiver...

 

[iahawks10]

I think you are wrong and the Big 10 said it was the booth replay guy. Even the national review desk didnt go there

It was the replay official Ken Koester who stopped the game, called for the review, watched the replay, and reversed the TD. Koester then tells Tim ODey what his findings were and ODey goes from there. The replay official makes this call, not the referee.

 

[iahawks10]

Protection for the receiver...

True, and I agree that’s the biggest difference, but there is still some protection here for the returner regardless. He still has the halo, and still could be considered defenseless in many situations. I agree, but I am saying just because his waving hand never gets above his head, doesn’t make him fair game to be lit up by the punt team either.

 

[the notorious r.d.m.]

Here are several other examples of very similar plays that went for TDs that weren’t called back.

View embedded media

Punt #1, Miami (FL): punt returner clearly points with both hands (no waving that I can tell), not a valid or invalid signal. Ball is live.
Punt #2, North Texas: punt returner begins to bring arms up but stops short of his shoulders. Invalid signal as it doesn't meet the requirements of a fair catch. Evidenced by the defense pulling up and stopping. Ball is dead.
Punt #3, Boston College: punt returner clearly points with both hand (see punt #1). Ball is live.
Punt #4, Mississippi State: unclear to me, he looks like he is pointing, but his arms are shoulder height pointing straight and not down. Could be called either way.
Punt #5, UCLA: punt returner arms are up, maybe waving but not pointing. Invalid catch signal. Ball is dead.
Punt #6, Indiana: I see nothing to indicate a valid or invalid catch signal. Ball is live.
Punt #7, South Alabama: Arms go up in a general waving motion, but not a valid signal so invalid catch signal. Ball is dead.

Granted I can't see the entire play most of the time. But according to O'Dey's explanation "It's legal to point, but any waving of the hands is considered an invalid signal." In my estimation 3 of the 7 punts there was no invalid catch signal. Pointing is fine. The rules explicitly state the "get away" sign is invalid. That's both arms conveying 'I'm giving this ball up and letting it bounce.' You can argue that's what Cooper was doing.

 

[HawkeyeGenius]

Yes in the context that I've seen guys raise their arms straight up in a half-ass way to say mouth level and waive their arm like a fair catch then decide to run. It's been blown dead on the field right the . Never in the manner that CDJ did because nobody thought it was any attempt at that. It only happens numerous times every Saturday in a lot games.

 

[obfuscating]

I actually think Chris Williams had the correct take on this.

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supposedly really smart people made this call too, but KF said they were reviewing if he stepped out, nothing mentioned of a fair catch motion.

 

[uihawk82]

The question begs to be asked. Why even attempt a valid fair catch signal? If the end result is a dead ball at the spot whether it’s valid or invalid, and there’s no penalty (loss of yardage) for an invalid signal, why even make attempt a valid fair catch?

As I said right after it happened with my new thread saying it was the worst call ever, they have to change this rule. If they dont then every friggin arm motion by every punt returner will be subject to question.

They need to spell out again what a valid fair catch signal is and let any other horizontal arm motions be ok. This crap of trying to read the returners mind that they are trying to fake out the coverage team with invalid this and invalid that is a crock of shit.

There is enough subjectivity in holding and PI penalties but most penalties are pretty easy to see.

While we are on it I would almost like no holding penalties, the offense can hold pass rushers and the defense can hold receivers, but no tackling of those players, maybe holding above the waist. I really think that would be an easier game to officiate and even watch.

 

[uihawk82]

Punt #1, Miami (FL): punt returner clearly points with both hands (no waving that I can tell), not a valid or invalid signal. Ball is live.
Punt #2, North Texas: punt returner begins to bring arms up but stops short of his shoulders. Invalid signal as it doesn't meet the requirements of a fair catch. Evidenced by the defense pulling up and stopping. Ball is dead.
Punt #3, Boston College: punt returner clearly points with both hand (see punt #1). Ball is live.
Punt #4, Mississippi State: unclear to me, he looks like he is pointing, but his arms are shoulder height pointing straight and not down. Could be called either way.
Punt #5, UCLA: punt returner arms are up, maybe waving but not pointing. Invalid catch signal. Ball is dead.
Punt #6, Indiana: I see nothing to indicate a valid or invalid catch signal. Ball is live.
Punt #7, South Alabama: Arms go up in a general waving motion, but not a valid signal so invalid catch signal. Ball is dead.

Granted I can't see the entire play most of the time. But according to O'Dey's explanation "It's legal to point, but any waving of the hands is considered an invalid signal." In my estimation 3 of the 7 punts there was no invalid catch signal. Pointing is fine. The rules explicitly state the "get away" sign is invalid. That's both arms conveying 'I'm giving this ball up and letting it bounce.' You can argue that's what Cooper was doing.

So you think that punt returners should only be able to move their arms if they are pointing at the ball or doing a real, valid fair catch signal? ??

Otherwise the punt returner has to run with stiff arms down to his side and he cant move his arms because that could be mistaken for waving his arms.

What a jackass stupid rule with way too much room for goofy interpretation and a rule that is hardly ever called except when it brings back TD returns.

 

[Ronman]

According to the B1G, none of their refs have ever made a bad call in any sport going back forever (no matter how many times they have to cross their fingers behind their backs).

 

[the notorious r.d.m.]

So you think that punt returners should only be able to move their arms if they are pointing at the ball or doing a real, valid fair catch signal? ??

Otherwise the punt returner has to run with stiff arms down to his side and he cant move his arms because that could be mistaken for waving his arms.

What a jackass stupid rule with way too much room for goofy interpretation and a rule that is hardly ever called except when it brings back TD returns.

What I think is irrelevant. I was looking at those punts as objectively as possible according to the NCAA rule and O'Dey's explanation. I've seen that twitter video passed around as fact and it clearly isn't. I agree refs in general have done a bad job at enforcing that particular rule.

My opinion is what happened Saturday evening is solely on Kirk Ferentz and Lavar Woods. If the rule states any sort of wave is considered an invalid signal and the ball is dead then do not use your hands or arms in any sort of manner if you intend to return the punt. That should be hammered into a returner's head because of the language of the rule.

Personally, I think some punt returners point and do the "get away" or "kill" hand sign to confuse or obscure their intention to the punting team thus creating an advantage. Which is fine. No issue with that as long as there's no rule violation that will lead to a penalty or dead ball or whatever. But there is a rule for that. As was the case Saturday Iowa was hurt because they didn't fully understand the rule. Anyone can say "well the refs never call that." Sure, but that's not the rule and not an excuse.

 

[herkhatescy]

The Minnesota player on the sideline let up and didn’t even try to push him out of bounds.

It rarely happens, if the refs are doing their jobs, they call it. Most punt returners know the rule, if you’re waving your arms for any reason, you cannot advance the ball. I’ve never seen it happen. If you have video evidence or even a story, please post.

Bull ****ing shit. The player tried to tackle him and missed and fell out of bounds.

 

[Gus is dead]

I don't think evidence of one player letting up on that play constitutes evidence of the defense interpreting his hands as a valid or invalid fair catch. Multiple players? Maybe. Then you have something.