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150 armed terrorists take over federal building

If you are willing to burn a forest to cover an illegal hunt, I'm not sure I trust you to be out in the public. That's some serious enough bad judgment and disregard for property and people. This wasn't an accidental fire like some are pretending. This was an attempt at a massive destruction to cover up a minor offense. Perhaps a mental institution would be more appropriate but we don't have that option anymore in America. Crazy people go to jail here.

Well it isn't a forest, at least as far as I understand, but even then if I extrapolate your logic to other crimes you are locking up an even larger portion of our population than we already do.

But, even going exactly the facts as you are presenting them (don't think they are that simple), we have a Judge who heard all of the facts and circumstances and did not believe it necessitated 5 years ... yet we refuse his discretion and force it, simply because it is written in the law. What was the point of even having a judge? To determine it wasn't the death penalty? Come on. Let judges judge, we pay them a lot of money for us to pretend that is what we let them do.
 
In his example he came onto my property and threatened me with a gun, my response was my example of what would happen if he did that.

I pull no punches!

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Well it isn't a forest, at least as far as I understand, but even then if I extrapolate your logic to other crimes you are locking up an even larger portion of our population than we already do.

But, even going exactly the facts as you are presenting them (don't think they are that simple), we have a Judge who heard all of the facts and circumstances and did not believe it necessitated 5 years ... yet we refuse his discretion and force it, simply because it is written in the law. What was the point of even having a judge? To determine it wasn't the death penalty? Come on. Let judges judge, we pay them a lot of money for us to pretend that is what we let them do.
I too am not a fan of mandatory sentencing. How do you figure locking up people for intentionally destroying property to cover up crimes is going to expand our prison population? It's not clear to me why that would have any impact beyond the status quo.
 
In his example he came onto my property and threatened me with a gun, my response was my example of what would happen if he did that.

I pull no punches!
And in the case we are considering in this thread, the Bundy gang occupied some public property and threatened people with guns. So if you're consistent, you should be for blowing them away.
 
I too am not a fan of mandatory sentencing. How do you figure locking up people for intentionally destroying property to cover up crimes is going to expand our prison population? It's not clear to me why that would have any impact beyond the status quo.
Because you are too narrowly construing it to make your point. The crime was one punishable by, what, fines? Maybe jail time? (I have no idea, hell on federal land it is probably like in the King's Court and a beheading). He then covered it up (according to your facts) by lighting a fire that they then put out after losing control of it. Are you punishing him for covering up a crime? That, also, is a relatively light sentence. If for this, this will greatly expand our prisons, people are caught covering up there crimes consistently, it is just the third or fourth charge and the first to get dropped. Are you punishing him for arson? For what purpose? To stop him from doing it again, is that necessary? To prove a point to others in relatively open areas who legally burn in all sorts of ways from doing it to federal land? Yeah, that very specific thing probably won't reach many people, as your point on it not having an impact points out. If it wouldn't impact many people, there isn't much bite, societally, to the five year sentence.
 
These idiots need to die. Burn them out then shoot them like the cowardly animals they are. The world would be a better place.

Why do you think these guys are cowards? They aren't killing innocent people and they're willing to die for a cause. That doesn't sound cowardly to me. Cowardly sounds more like just sitting there and take it while the government continues to take away liberty after liberty.
 
That is true, cowardly isn't a good term for them. I wouldn't exactly call them protectors of our liberties though, as their stated goal seems to be taking government property for themselves.
 
Because you are too narrowly construing it to make your point. The crime was one punishable by, what, fines? Maybe jail time? (I have no idea, hell on federal land it is probably like in the King's Court and a beheading). He then covered it up (according to your facts) by lighting a fire that they then put out after losing control of it. Are you punishing him for covering up a crime? That, also, is a relatively light sentence. If for this, this will greatly expand our prisons, people are caught covering up there crimes consistently, it is just the third or fourth charge and the first to get dropped. Are you punishing him for arson? For what purpose? To stop him from doing it again, is that necessary? To prove a point to others in relatively open areas who legally burn in all sorts of ways from doing it to federal land? Yeah, that very specific thing probably won't reach many people, as your point on it not having an impact points out. If it wouldn't impact many people, there isn't much bite, societally, to the five year sentence.
Did he put it out? I don't think that's right, it burned 139 acres. And why do you call these my facts? In the testimony the plan was to burn the county down. Do we let him off just because he wasn't successful? Why wouldn't we expect him to do this again? This was the 2nd time he has done this. I think trying to start a wilderness preserve on fire is a very big crime. I think the magnitude is increased when you consider the reason for purposely setting the fire. Increased again when he extorts others to help him with the plan. Increased again when this is a pattern.

In general I'm on board with finding alternative sentences for people, but 5 years in prison is not that out of line for what happened here IMO.
http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/e...convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison
 
Did he put it out? I don't think that's right, it burned 139 acres. And why do you call these my facts? In the testimony the plan was to burn the county down. Do we let him off just because he wasn't successful? Why wouldn't we expect him to do this again? This was the 2nd time he has done this. I think trying to start a wilderness preserve on fire is a very big crime. I think the magnitude is increased when you consider the reason for purposely setting the fire. Increased again when he extorts others to help him with the plan. Increased again when this is a pattern.

In general I'm on board with finding alternative sentences for people, but 5 years in prison is not that out of line for what happened here IMO.
http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/e...convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison

I call them your facts, because what I read didn't quite support them. There was an allegation that it was to cover up poaching, from the US Attorney's own press release it doesn't seem that was quite proved, other than they may have been hunting and the evidence was gone later. The testimony that I saw only summarized was that they were at their fence line and told to light matches, and that they put it out later, after it burned those acres.

Well, I think our disagreement from the "badness" of the crime. He likely either a) poached and covered it up like you posit or b) burned it to improve his grazing land. Either way isn't for a good, legal purpose, but neither is terrorism nor to "start a wilderness preserve on fire". It sure reads like it is common practice in that area, you just can't do it on federal land.

All of those increases you push for should have been determined by a judge, a judge who didn't believe the mandatory minimum was reasonable. I think it is entirely out of line for what happened. What sentences do you think lead to actual 5 year prison terms? Because it is fed he will be serving a lot of that, iirc, a little over 4 years. What crimes do you think people legitimately serve 4 years for in Iowa?
 
white people are patriots, colored people are terrorists, bau.

Correct. Per usual GOP suspects:

150 white trespassers carrying rifles and handguns, and who threaten violence if removed or arrested = patriots.

2 blacks guys outside polling place, one carrying a billy club saying you are about to be ruled by a black man cracker = terrorists and the end of the world as we know it.
 
I call them your facts, because what I read didn't quite support them. There was an allegation that it was to cover up poaching, from the US Attorney's own press release it doesn't seem that was quite proved, other than they may have been hunting and the evidence was gone later. The testimony that I saw only summarized was that they were at their fence line and told to light matches, and that they put it out later, after it burned those acres.

Well, I think our disagreement from the "badness" of the crime. He likely either a) poached and covered it up like you posit or b) burned it to improve his grazing land. Either way isn't for a good, legal purpose, but neither is terrorism nor to "start a wilderness preserve on fire". It sure reads like it is common practice in that area, you just can't do it on federal land.

All of those increases you push for should have been determined by a judge, a judge who didn't believe the mandatory minimum was reasonable. I think it is entirely out of line for what happened. What sentences do you think lead to actual 5 year prison terms? Because it is fed he will be serving a lot of that, iirc, a little over 4 years. What crimes do you think people legitimately serve 4 years for in Iowa?
What do you think the value of 139 acres is? If I robbed that amount from a person, I bet I would get 4 years. If this was the 2nd time I did this, I bet I would get more than 4 years. If I robbed a person with a deadly weapon of mass destruction and led a gang I bet i get even more. He did bad stuff in my book. He should lose some liberty and think it over.
 
Correct. Per usual GOP suspects:

150 white trespassers carrying rifles and handguns, and who threaten violence if removed or arrested = patriots.

2 blacks guys outside polling place, one carrying a billy club saying you are about to be ruled by a black man cracker = terrorists and the end of the world as we know it.

To be fair, they still believe that actually did lead to the end of the world as we know it, now we just live in BO's wasteland.
 
What do you think the value of 139 acres is? If I robbed that amount from a person, I bet I would get 4 years. If this was the 2nd time I did this, I bet I would get more than 4 years. If I robbed a person with a deadly weapon of mass destruction and led a gang I bet i get even more. He did bad stuff in my book. He should lose some liberty and think it over.

So recover the value, something you definitely aren't getting from a person spending 4 years in prison. You aren't saying that he should lose "some liberty and think it over", you are saying he should lose 4 years while thinking it over. Isn't one of them in his 70s? So you are sentencing him to, what, 25% of his remaining life?

Let's put a value on it. Let's say it is damage of $1 Million. That would probably only be done by embezzlement in Iowa, and if tried at the state level, these two exact guys would probably receive probation if they agreed to pay it back, even federally they probably wouldn't get 5 years, more likely some form of probation.

I don't get the deadly weapon of mass destruction angle, but I presume you mean fire. That could be said about every arson, and arson of that amount would be a 10 year sentence in Iowa, probably paroled either immediately or within 6 months, if not just probation to begin with.

I just think you are starting from the wrong place, starting with the bad act instead of the reason for the punishment. If it is to stop them, specifically, from doing it again, I can't imagine you think it will take 5 years to do that. If it is to stop others, you've already said there aren't many people that this could apply to, so that seems unnecessary. So what is the purpose? Because it could have been worse? That was the dangerous precedent I cautioned about earlier, greatly increasing our prison system.
 
Let's put a value on it. Let's say it is damage of $1 Million. That would probably only be done by embezzlement in Iowa, and if tried at the state level, these two exact guys would probably receive probation if they agreed to pay it back, even federally they probably wouldn't get 5 years, more likely some form of probation.

You don't get probation in federal court for a 1 million dollar embezzlement. I'd back these guys to the extent they want to talk about eliminating mandatory federal sentences. Both parties spend millions to vet, nominate, and confirm federal judges. We should let them judge. I hate minimum sentences because it prevents the Court from exercising the discretion we believe they have.
 
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So recover the value, something you definitely aren't getting from a person spending 4 years in prison. You aren't saying that he should lose "some liberty and think it over", you are saying he should lose 4 years while thinking it over. Isn't one of them in his 70s? So you are sentencing him to, what, 25% of his remaining life?

Let's put a value on it. Let's say it is damage of $1 Million. That would probably only be done by embezzlement in Iowa, and if tried at the state level, these two exact guys would probably receive probation if they agreed to pay it back, even federally they probably wouldn't get 5 years, more likely some form of probation.

I don't get the deadly weapon of mass destruction angle, but I presume you mean fire. That could be said about every arson, and arson of that amount would be a 10 year sentence in Iowa, probably paroled either immediately or within 6 months, if not just probation to begin with.

I just think you are starting from the wrong place, starting with the bad act instead of the reason for the punishment. If it is to stop them, specifically, from doing it again, I can't imagine you think it will take 5 years to do that. If it is to stop others, you've already said there aren't many people that this could apply to, so that seems unnecessary. So what is the purpose? Because it could have been worse? That was the dangerous precedent I cautioned about earlier, greatly increasing our prison system.

That's not what you do with someone you can't trust out in nature. He has burned through is second chance. Why do you think its right to put his neighbors at risk and turn him lose on the public? He is a danger to his community. People like that belong in jail.

Every arsonist isn't trying to burn the county down. Why should I start with the reason? Punishment always starts with the crime. Justice, deterrence for others, specifically taking him out of the public all all legit here. I think he's a fairly bad person who is a danger to others and has proven he can't be trusted to act reasonably. That's what prisons are for. If putting people like that in prison increases the population, so be it.

Why don't you think this person is prison worthy? Note, the guy is only 70 because we gave him 14 years of freedom to contest what he did. This happened back in 2001. He did it again in 2006. If Justice was swift, we probably avoid the repeat and he is free to retire with his loved ones.
 
I'm seeing about 20-28 months federally for that type of embezzlement, even if I don't think that is an equatable crime. But, alas, I don't care, I just wish we'd let judges judge as St. Louis said.
 
That's not what you do with someone you can't trust out in nature. He has burned through is second chance. Why do you think its right to put his neighbors at risk and turn him lose on the public? He is a danger to his community. People like that belong in jail.

Every arsonist isn't trying to burn the county down. Why should I start with the reason? Punishment always starts with the crime. Justice, deterrence for others, specifically taking him out of the public all all legit here. I think he's a fairly bad person who is a danger to others and has proven he can't be trusted to act reasonably. That's what prisons are for. If putting people like that in prison increases the population, so be it.

Why don't you think this person is prison worthy? Note, the guy is only 70 because we gave him 14 years of freedom to contest what he did. This happened back in 2001. He did it again in 2006. If Justice was swift, we probably avoid the repeat and he is free to retire with his loved ones.

What are you basing any of this on? I've said this a couple times now, the Judge who heard all of it determined that this wasn't enough for 5 years, that it wasn't as bad as you are trying to make it out to be.

Yes it was 2006 and 2001, but it doesn't appear they even went after him until like 2008. Hard to give a person strikes when you don't even condemn their conduct when it happens. He wasn't trying to burn the county down, your hyperbole has gotten thinner and thinner.

You should start with the reason for the punishment, because that is the logical, philosophically appropriate approach to take. If you simply take the emotion of the crime, you ignore whether what you are doing actually has an effect. If your punishment isn't having the desired effect, what is the purpose of doing it? Some vague term like "justice"? Justice for whom, the desert?

I think you start with the easy question: Do you think either of them will commit the crime again, if unpunished? If on probation? If required to pay it back? If any of those make you say "no", then there is no logical purpose to imprisonment, if you still say yes, then how much time convinces a 70+ year old not to light any more fires on federal land? I can't imagine very much. But that is me, I admit that.
 
What are you basing any of this on? I've said this a couple times now, the Judge who heard all of it determined that this wasn't enough for 5 years, that it wasn't as bad as you are trying to make it out to be.

Yes it was 2006 and 2001, but it doesn't appear they even went after him until like 2008. Hard to give a person strikes when you don't even condemn their conduct when it happens. He wasn't trying to burn the county down, your hyperbole has gotten thinner and thinner.

You should start with the reason for the punishment, because that is the logical, philosophically appropriate approach to take. If you simply take the emotion of the crime, you ignore whether what you are doing actually has an effect. If your punishment isn't having the desired effect, what is the purpose of doing it? Some vague term like "justice"? Justice for whom, the desert?

I think you start with the easy question: Do you think either of them will commit the crime again, if unpunished? If on probation? If required to pay it back? If any of those make you say "no", then there is no logical purpose to imprisonment, if you still say yes, then how much time convinces a 70+ year old not to light any more fires on federal land? I can't imagine very much. But that is me, I admit that.
I linked it for you once, its the same document tarheel gave on page one.
http://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/e...convicted-arson-resentenced-five-years-prison

Its not my facts, and its not my hyperbole. "Steven Hammond handed out “Strike Anywhere” matches with instructions that they be lit and dropped on the ground because they were going to “light up the whole country on fire.”"

Well if it is logical, it would be new to the American justice system. The standard has always been that the crime determines the punishment, not that the reason for the punishment determine the punishment.

I have every reason to think this guy would commit the crime again. Because he has!!!!!!!! And he isn't contrite and remorseful and accepting responsibility for doing it. Stopping an individual from committing a future crime isn't the only or even the primary reason to put a person in prison. Although I can see that philosophical logic, that isn't our system of justice. Our system is mainly about punishing for past crimes, not stopping future crimes.

Finally there are the Bundy ranchers out there that might see you can light your federal grazing land on fire and get away with it if you are old. I sure don't want to send that message. Not punishing this person would be irresponsible in my view. He is not worthy of sympathy. He didn't get caught up in circumstances beyond his control. This wasn't a mistake or accident. This was willful disregard for property and life as a coverup for a minor offence. That speaks to a person who can't be trusted in public.
 
Just getting in here and I didn't get to read the whole thread but how is this not considered an armed rebellion?

In any other country if we hear an armed group took over a government building we call it a rebellion.

These people need to be dealt with and harshly. The law is the law and it's changed via the ballot box, not via an armed group storming a building. Attempting to change the law or the government via force of arms is rebellion and rebels should be forced to surrender and then imprisoned or they should be destroyed likewise via force of arms.

I say offer them a chance to surrender and if they refuse, send in the attack helicopters. No need to risk any blood from the military or law enforcement on this when you can just shoot a few rockets into the place and use the chain gun for the survivors.

I really hope they surrender but armed rebellion should not be tolerated.
 
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Just getting in here and I didn't get to read the whole thread but how is this not considered an armed rebellion?

In any other country if we hear an armed group took over a government building we call it a rebellion.

These people need to be dealt with and harshly. The law is the law and it's changed via the ballot box, not via an armed group storming a building. Attempting to change the law or the government via force of arms is rebellion and rebels should be forced to surrender and then imprisoned or they should be destroyed likewise via force of arms.

I say offer them a chance to surrender and if they refuse, send in the attack helicopters. No need to risk any blood from the military or law enforcement on this when you can just shoot a few rockets into the place and use the chain gun for the survivors.

I really hope they surrender but armed rebellion should not be tolerated.
Especially now that we have the rebels saying they might occupy the site for "years."

I have been urging that we treat this the way we normally treat civil disobedience. The idea was to give them a way to back down gracefully, accept a slap on the wrist and go home.

But that sleight of hand can only survive a day or 2 and requires that they opt in. When they are calling for more armed protesters to join them for a long-term occupation and are threatening to "defend themselves," they are squandering the chance of a good outcome.
 
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Especially now that we have the rebels saying they might occupy the site for "years."

I have been urging that we treat this the way we normally treat civil disobedience. The idea was to give them a way to back down gracefully, accept a slap on the wrist and go home.

But that sleight of hand can only survive a day or 2 and requires that they opt in. When they are calling for more armed protesters to join them for a long-term occupation and are threatening to "defend themselves," they are squandering the chance of a good outcome.

Honestly I'm not even fully convinced that they should be given a chance to accept a slap on the wrist.

According to this, rebellion and insurrection can be punished by up to 10 years in prison. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2383

I say if they surrender then they are subject to that law and charged as criminals. Perhaps a show of force would also induce them into surrender. Perhaps we could have artillery shell a spot nearby where there are no people. Maybe have a few attack helicopters fly around the area. Let them know we mean business.

If they utterly refuse then destroy them.
 
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I have not read the whole thread, so sorry if I missed it, but...what evidence is there that these are terrorists?
 
As of Sunday afternoon, The Washington Post called them "occupiers." The New York Times opted for "armed activists" and "militia men." And the Associated Press put the situation this way: "A family previously involved in a showdown with the federal government has occupied a building at a national wildlife refuge in Oregon and is asking militia members to join them."

Not one seemed to lean toward terms such as "insurrection," "revolt," anti-government "insurgents" or, as some on social media were calling them, "terrorists." When a group of unknown size and unknown firepower has taken over any federal building with plans and possibly some equipment to aid a years-long occupation — and when its representative tells reporters that they would prefer to avoid violence but are prepared to die — the kind of almost-uniform delicacy and the limits on the language used to describe the people involved becomes noteworthy itself.

It is hard to imagine that none of the words mentioned above — particularly "insurrection" or "revolt" — would be avoided if, for instance, a group of armed black Americans took possession of a federal or state courthouse to protest the police. Black Americans outraged about the death of a 12-year-old boy at the hands of police or concerned about the absence of a conviction in the George Zimmerman case have been frequently and inaccurately lumped in with criminals and looters, described as "thugs," or marauding wolf packs where drugs are, according to CNN's Don Lemon, "obviously" in use.

If a group of armed Muslims took possession of a federal building or even its lobby to protest calls to surveil the entire group, it's even more doubtful they could avoid harsher, more-alarming labels.

In fairness to those assembled in Oregon, it is true that there have been no reports of actual violence, injury or anyone being held inside the Oregon building against their will.

And in the interim, some may feel particularly inclined to take real care with the language used to describe the situation so as not to inflame it or offend people who, in some cases, have already been troubled by the decision to charge a father and son pair of ranchers with arson under the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996. The charge not only carries what many of the rancher's supporters believe to be an unjust five-year jail term, but it brings the very same t-word into the mix.

For those who know the father and son — Dwight Hammond Jr. and his son, Steven Hammond — personally, it is understandable that they would disagree vehemently with any government action that implies that the men they know as engaged members of the community are terrorists. But one really cannot help but wonder where similar outrage lives when data clearly indicate that black Americans are far more likely than white ones to face serious charges and jail time rather than misdemeanor penalties for resisting arrest. Where has the lock-step adherence to careful and delicate language been in all of 2015 when unarmed black Americans were disproportionately more likely to be killed by police than others?

Beyond that seeming incongruity, the Hammonds are not among the occupiers. The man who has helped to organize the building occupation in Oregon is Ammon Bundy. Bundy is the son of Cliven Bundy, a Nevada rancher who engaged in a standoff in 2014 with the government over grazing rights. And the younger Bundy has, again, described the occupiers as "armed" and prepared to die.

The armed occupation of a federal building might be what Bundy considers an assertion of rights and a mere gathering in a taxpayer-financed space. But it would seem to contain the real risk of violence, serious injury or even death.

Deliberate language choices are always a wise and reasonable move. That is especially true when telling stories of conflict with government and political protests. But the incredibly limited and relatively soft range of words in wide use Sunday seems to extend beyond all of that. The descriptions of events in Oregon appear to reflect the usual shape of our collective assumptions about the relationship between race and guilt — or religion and violent extremism — in the United States.

White Americans, their activities and ideas seem always to stem from a font of principled and committed individuals. As such, group suspicion and presumed guilt are readily perceived and described as unjust, unreasonable and unethical.

You will note that while the group gathered in Oregon is almost assuredly all or nearly all white, that has scarcely been mentioned in any story. You will note that nothing even close to similar can be said about coverage of events in Missouri, Maryland, Illinois or any other place where questions about policing have given way to protests or actual riots.

You will note the extended debate about whether admitted Charleston shooter Dylann Roof's apparently racially motivated shooting spree was an act of terrorism or even violent racism and the comparatively rapid way that more than one news organization began hinting at and then using terms such as Islamic extremism to describe the mass shooting in San Bernardino, Calif.

The sometimes-coded but increasingly overt ways that some Americans are presumed guilty and violence-prone while others are assumed to be principled and peaceable unless and until provoked — even when actually armed — is remarkable.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...p-top-table-main_fixoregon-6am:homepage/story
 
It is hard to imagine that none of the words mentioned above — particularly "insurrection" or "revolt" — would be avoided if, for instance, a group of armed black Americans took possession of a federal or state courthouse to protest the police.
I was debating whether or not to ask this question.

The question cuts both ways, though. What you call them and their actions depends a lot on what you think about their objectives.

In a culture where carrying guns is legal, why should whether they are armed or not make a difference?

Suppose an armed group of environmentalists had occupied this exact same site to protest fracking on public lands. Would that be different? I certainly think some here would be changing "sides" but why is that different?
 
Because you are too narrowly construing it to make your point. The crime was one punishable by, what, fines? Maybe jail time? (I have no idea, hell on federal land it is probably like in the King's Court and a beheading). He then covered it up (according to your facts) by lighting a fire that they then put out after losing control of it. Are you punishing him for covering up a crime? That, also, is a relatively light sentence. If for this, this will greatly expand our prisons, people are caught covering up there crimes consistently, it is just the third or fourth charge and the first to get dropped. Are you punishing him for arson? For what purpose? To stop him from doing it again, is that necessary? To prove a point to others in relatively open areas who legally burn in all sorts of ways from doing it to federal land? Yeah, that very specific thing probably won't reach many people, as your point on it not having an impact points out. If it wouldn't impact many people, there isn't much bite, societally, to the five year sentence.
You're usually pretty well informed, so I'm replying to your post. I have just skimmed this thread, but I haven't seen any mention of the feds going back on the agreement they signed. Has that been discussed?

My understanding is that this is what precipitated the occupation. The feds and the perps had agreed to a plea bargain, the perps served the specified time, and then the feds decided they wanted more than they had signed off on.

Is that essentially correct?
 
You're usually pretty well informed, so I'm replying to your post. I have just skimmed this thread, but I haven't seen any mention of the feds going back on the agreement they signed. Has that been discussed?

My understanding is that this is what precipitated the occupation. The feds and the perps had agreed to a plea bargain, the perps served the specified time, and then the feds decided they wanted more than they had signed off on.

Is that essentially correct?

I didn't think so. I believe that the original judge sentenced him to much less time, which they served. The Fed government in all of their wisdom appealed that sentence asserting that it was illegal ... which it was according to mandatory sentencing laws. The lowest sentence available was 5, so they were recently resentenced to 5, with the credit for the time they spent. Not pursuant to plea agreement, as far as I'm aware.

Feds should have left well enough alone, it wasn't setting a precedent they couldn't easily fight on a case that deserved it.
 
You're usually pretty well informed, so I'm replying to your post. I have just skimmed this thread, but I haven't seen any mention of the feds going back on the agreement they signed. Has that been discussed?

My understanding is that this is what precipitated the occupation. The feds and the perps had agreed to a plea bargain, the perps served the specified time, and then the feds decided they wanted more than they had signed off on.

Is that essentially correct?

Of course not, but you are closer than usual. The Hammonds were of convicted by a jury after a 2 week trial of using fire to destroy federal property, a crime established in the 96 anti-terrorism and effective death penalty act. The crime carries a mandatory minimum of 5 years. There was no deal, and the US Attorney didn't sign off on any sentence below 5 years.

At sentencing, the Judge bought their argument that 5 years would be cruel and unusual punishment in violation of the 8th Amendment and therefore disregarded the minimums. Prosecution appealed and won reversal. The reversal is absolutely unsurprising, our case law on the 8th Amendment (mostly derived from affirming drug sentences) is draconian, pretty much saying if you didn't draw and quarter its not cruel or unusual. So they were resentenced to the minimum 5 years.
 
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